Mr. OSWALD. If I may qualify one point of that statement, as to being
a social drink--during the period that we was at the Inn of the Six
Flags in Arlington, Tex., the baby, Rachel Oswald, being breast fed,
and due to the nature that she was quite upset at that particular
time, that she was not eating proper, and that they were having some
difficulty--she was having difficulty maintaining the natural milk
supply in her own body for the baby, that one six-pack of beer was
brought in, and at no time did I see her drink other than one beer at a
time or one beer per day to help fortify herself in this production of
milk.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear any conversation in which your brother
participated or Marina participated with you or in your presence
respecting the subject of his or her or their attendance at any night
club, bar, tavern, or restaurant in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and
when I use the word restaurant, I am thinking of a restaurant in which
intoxicating liquors or entertainment might be employed.
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry I keep referring to this point again, sir, but
this was prior to November 23, 1963?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. All right. That is, your brother and Marina were not in
the habit of--you know of no occasion on which they attended bars or
restaurants with entertainment which might be described as night clubs
and that sort of thing?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it that is not your habit, either?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. To your knowledge, did he have any friends in this circle,
the nightclub circle?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I was aware of, sir, prior to November 23, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any friends or classmates or associates,
either of yourself or your brother Lee, who have become nightclub
entertainers? And may I say that includes so-called stripteasers or
musicians or singers, or masters of ceremony.
Mr. OSWALD. If I may refresh my memory to the question, sir, you did
include myself in that statement, did you not?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. The only gentleman that I was ever in a remote way
acquainted with who has become perhaps what might be determined an
entertainer as you have outlined was a boy that attended high school
with me in Fort Worth, Tex., and he is now known as, as then--I believe
his correct name is Mr. Van Williams. If I might pinpoint the series of
programs on television that he appeared in was Surfside Six, and other
western and detective type series programs on television.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your brother was acquainted with him?
Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion, sir, that he was not acquainted
with Mr. Williams.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you know of any friends, classmates or associates
of either yourself or your brother Lee who have become waitresses,
bartenders, or, to use the vernacular, bouncers?
You know what a bouncer is?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
To answer your question, sir, I do not know of any that are personally
acquainted to myself or that I would be of the opinion that were
acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. And the same question as to members or employees of any gun
clubs or shooting ranges, rifle ranges.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes; 1 am acquainted with at least two people who have
joined or belonged to a gun club or something of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify them, and also state whether or
not your brother Lee was acquainted with these people.
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Bill Harlan, formerly of the Acme Brick Co., in Fort
Worth, Tex., and Mr.--I am quite sure that Mr. Harlan is not acquainted
with my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.
The other gentleman is Mr. Jewel Godi, of the Acme Brick Co., in
Denton, Tex., who is not acquainted with my brother Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. I take it these two gentlemen you have identified are
fellow employees of Acme Brick Co.?
Mr. OSWALD. Or ex-employees that have become my personal friends, sir.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you know--I will withdraw that, because it would
be repetitious.
What kind of gun clubs--hunting clubs, or gun practice clubs?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. Harlan belonged to an archery club in Fort Worth, Tex., that I
believe was also part of a gun club.
And Mr. Godi belongs to a Denton gun club of the nature of a practice
range.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any possible homosexual tendency or activity
of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information as to whether he at any time
met with suspected homosexuals or whether he went to the places
reputedly frequented by homosexuals?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. What was your brother's attitude toward sex in general?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not have an opinion on that, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion whether it was a normal, healthy
attitude?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say it would be a normal, healthy attitude, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have, any--do you know what his attitude was, if
he had one and you are acquainted with, toward homosexuality and
homosexuals?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not of any opinion on that particular
question.
Mr. JENNER. And this series of questions which I have been asked to
put to you, I intended to include his entire lifetime. And were you
answering the questions with that in mind?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would not change my own answers on that basis.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or not any of the persons whose names I
read to you, that series of names, beginning with George Senator, and
concluding with Joyce Lee McDonald, contacted any member of your family
or friends subsequent to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Or any employer or fellow employee of yours?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it from your previous answer, which was that
these names were unfamiliar to you, that they certainly did not contact
you--at least you did not know consciously that they contacted you.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. This is not, I anticipate, fully repetitious, Mr. Chairman,
but an inquiry has been made--I just want to make certain of it.
Were you at all aware as to whether in October of 1962--aware of the
fact, that for a short time Marina resided with Elena Hall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. JENNER. And were you aware that there was for a short period of
time some argument or fight between your brother and Marina which may
have played a part in her visiting in the home of Elena Hall for a
short time in October 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, sir, this is all completely new to you. You have
no information on this subject.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You were not aware of anything of this nature at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie described at length yesterday Mr. George
De Mohrenschildt. As I recall it, your testimony was that you were
unacquainted with this gentleman.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear either your brother--were you present
when either your brother or Marina discussed, or may have discussed Mr.
De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not been.
Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of any threat that your brother uttered
against or may have uttered against Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware of any threat.
Mr. JENNER. You are now aware of the photograph of your brother with
the pistol on his hip and holding the rifle and also holding a sheaf of
papers, are you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. And did you see that photograph by any chance at any time
prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. Or did not.
Mr. JENNER. You were unaware that it had been taken?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know that your brother had either the gun or the
pistol?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Or had acquired the gun or pistol?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina, following November 22, 1963, herself also
acquire the same antipathy that you have testified you had with respect
to the Paines?
Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion, sir, that she has not or does
not have the antipathy that I have to the Paines. However, I feel
confident that she has followed my advice along that line, and not
contacted Mr. or Mrs. Paine since November 23, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did you have the impression that Mrs. Paine had some
ulterior motive, other than a good motive, desire to befriend Marina
when she was in some distress, and to gain the chance to talk Russian
with her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not have an opinion of that, since I was
not aware of the circumstances of how they did become acquainted, and
consequently started living in her residence in Irving, Tex.
Mr. DULLES. I gathered from your previous testimony that your feeling,
visceral feeling, related both to Mrs. Paine and to Mr. Paine.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. More so, if I might add, sir, to Mr.
Paine than Mrs. Paine. But still I will include both of them in that
answer.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know anything of Mr. Paine's background and
affiliations?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. You knew of Mrs. Paine's interest in learning Russian, did
you not, and in Russian matters?
Mr. OSWALD. Following November 22, 1963, this has been reported to me.
Mr. DULLES. By Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I read this in various reported news
articles and magazines that she has stated this was her intention.
Mr. DULLES. And Marina did not talk to you about either of the Paines
particularly?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to any extent.
Mr. JENNER. Your information with respect to the Paines, other than
your meeting them, I believe you said, the evening of November 22, and
later in the Inn of the Six Flags, is based primarily--in addition to
that--on items you have read in the newspaper and that sort of thing?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, to fully understand the question, you referred to a
meeting of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Inn of the Six Flags?
Mr. JENNER. I thought you said that Mrs. Paine--or was it Mrs. Ford in
the Inn of the Six Flags?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; neither of the ladies you have mentioned were in
the Inn of the Six Flags.
Mr. JENNER. Then your whole acquaintance with the Paines was your being
introduced to them, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate your acquaintance with the Paines, and
when it first arose?
Mr. OSWALD. The first occasion that I met Mr. and Mrs. Paine, was at
the Dallas police station on the night of November 22, 1963.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask there--had you heard about them before?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.
Mr. DULLES. Hadn't even heard about them?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. And my subsequent second meeting with
Mr. and Mrs. Paine--and I might add my last meeting with Mr. and Mrs.
Paine--was at their home in Irving, Tex., on the day that Mr. John
Thorne, Mr. Jim Martin and myself--for the purpose of picking up Marina
N. Oswald's and Lee Harvey Oswald's personal belongings. This was the
only time that I have met them since the night of November 22, 1963.
Mr. DULLES. Did anything transpire on that occasion, when you were
taking up Marina's and your brother's belongings?
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps, sir, the only thing that I recall that would
perhaps be of some type of significance was that Mr. Paine, at the
approximate time we were ready to depart from his home, called me over
to the side and stated that he would like to know where Marina was
staying, and they would like to be in contact with her. And my comment
to him was that Marina was leaving the area, and that she was to be
well taken care of. And at that time we left.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether the Paines have been in touch with
Marina since that particular time, when you left the Paine's home?
Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, sir, they have not in person been in
contact with Marina Oswald. However, it is my understanding from Mr.
Jim Martin and Mrs. Marina Oswald that Mrs. Paine has written a number
of letters to Mrs. Marina Oswald during her stay at the Martin's home
in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know the content of those letters?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Marina still has them in her possession?
Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion that she does, sir. And the only
comment she had made to me directly, or Mr. Martin perhaps made to me,
as to the contents of the letters was that they wanted to talk with
Marina, they wanted to be in contact with Marina in person.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, during all of the time that your brother and
your sister-in-law Marina resided in Fort Worth, Tex., were you aware
of any occasion when your sister resided or visited with, and lived
with, anyone else other than your brother Lee in their home?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, if I may correct you--you referred to her as my sister.
Mr. JENNER. I meant sister-in-law.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not acquainted at any time that she did.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any knowledge or acquaintance with whether
Marina did any shopping on her own?
Mr. OSWALD. During the period that they were in Fort Worth, Tex., sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I am acquainted.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate your knowledge in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. A conversation with my wife on return home from work one
afternoon, approximately the latter part of June 1962--correction, sir.
It was not a conversation with my wife--it was a conversation with
my mother, at approximately the latter part of August 1962, or the
first part of October 1962. And, to the best of my recollection, the
conversation was to the effect that Lee Harvey Oswald had gone downtown
in Fort Worth, Tex., looking for a job, and that Marina wanted to find
Lee while he was downtown, and even though reportedly from my mother
that she insisted that she not leave the house, she did, carrying the
baby, June Lee Oswald with her, and walked approximately 15 or 16
blocks into downtown Fort Worth.
It is my understanding that she became lost or needed assistance in her
directions, in her attempt either to find Lee Harvey Oswald or return
home, that she asked the assistance of a police officer, and that
apparently she did not have any other difficulty.
It is my understanding at that time that she did purchase either some
baby clothes or perhaps some clothes for herself.
Mr. JENNER. And this was all related to you by your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And does that exhaust your fund of knowledge as to any
shopping trips or visiting and shopping at a local shopping center or
stores by Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--prior to November 1963.
Mr. JENNER. November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. The diary, or memorandum, has considerable information, you
may recall, with purchases that were made by others for Marina and the
child, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. That was afterward.
Mr. DULLES. That was afterward?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, I do recall another instance.
In the presence of myself, Lee Harvey Oswald and Mrs. Marina Oswald and
the baby June Lee Oswald, approximately the middle of June 1963--the
occasion was a grocery shopping for my family and for----
Mr. JENNER. June of 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. June of 1962. And this was to my
knowledge----
Mr. JENNER. Your statement 1963 was a slip of the tongue?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
And there was, to my knowledge, at that time the first occasion that
Mrs. Marina Oswald had ever been in a supermarket of the nature that is
found in the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about the occasion.
Mr. OSWALD. I remember the occasion quite vividly. If you ever have the
opportunity, sir, to take a person of that nature into a supermarket or
an average size store, and watch the expression on their face, as to
the magnitude of the food and the variety of the food that was in her
presence--and I believe for the first time to any extent--it was quite
a pleasant observation, I might add, sir. She was quite overwhelmed.
Mr. JENNER. Surprised and overwhelmed?