Mr. DULLES. There is nothing like it in Minsk.
Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain, sir, there is not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that her reaction was such to
indicate that at least she had never seen anything of this nature?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was of the exact opinion she had not seen
anything anywhere comparable to that in the nature of a food store.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did you get the impression this was a spontaneous
reaction on her part?
Mr. OSWALD. Most certainly it was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. She was not putting on an act to impress you and Lee and
anyone accompanying you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. This is of interest, Mr. Chairman, particularly the
spontaneity.
Mr. DULLES. Was that in Dallas or Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. This was in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. This is while they were living with you, Mr. Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. How did this arise? Did you just decide--was this part of
showing her Fort Worth, or was it developed from desiring to go to the
supermarket to purchase something, or was it a combination of both?
Mr OSWALD. Sir, I believe it was a combination of both.
If I might add, the store that I went into was not the store that I
usually purchased groceries from.
Mr. JENNER. You were leading--you were doing the leading of this party?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And, in addition to yourself and Marina, who was present?
Mr. OSWALD. Only the baby, June Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you going, and you were showing her around
the town?
Mr. OSWALD. And Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. And you made some purchases?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did. And she made some purchases. Or she
selected some items.
Mr. DULLES. Can you tell us whether Marina had from time to time a
certain amount of money for her own disposition? Did your brother Lee
leave her money?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge that he did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would it be your impression that he did not?
Mr. OSWALD. It would be my impression that he did not.
Mr. JENNER. I would appreciate it if you would proceed to tell about
your taking her around on this particular day, and her reactions,
perhaps, to other things that you showed her in Fort Worth at this
early stage of her being in this country.
Mr. OSWALD. Her reactions in the supermarket, sir, as I have testified,
I believe to be completely spontaneous, and certainly from all
appearances it was entirely new to her. I do recall we started off in
the section of the store--do you want me to name the store, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you might do that.
Mr. OSWALD. It was a Safeway Grocery Store, located on Camp Bowie and
Ridglea addition of Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. I take it Camp Bowie is the name of a street?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you obtained any additional impressions as you made
this tour of Fort Worth, that is, as to her reactions to her new
surroundings?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. She reacted to a walk that we took after leaving
the grocery store and drove across the street to a suburban shopping
center, with a large variety of different type stores. I do not recall
going into any particular store. We were, as the term is applied,
window shopping. And she was quite impressed at the articles of
clothing, of jewelry, of shoes, and such items as might be displayed
in this type of suburban shopping center which would more or less
encompass a full variety of practically everything other than large
appliances at this time.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
At any time prior to November 22, 1963, did you become acquainted
with her habits, if any, with respect to independent shopping on her
part--that is, shopping by herself for foodstuffs or articles of
clothing for little June or for herself?
Mr. OSWALD. None other than, sir, that I have already related as
related by my mother to me.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name Hutch's Market familiar to you?
Mr. OSWALD. It is not.
Mr. JENNER. You testified yesterday that, as I recall--and if I am
incorrect, please correct me--that your impression at least was that
your mother was opposed to your marriage?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Am I correct up to that point?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Without the degree of that opposition. Was it quite
affirmative? Did she make any scene? Did she talk--express to you
unequivocally her opposition?
Give us those circumstances, please.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any specific instance where she
firmly stated that she was against my marriage. It might have been
little things along that line she might have said to me that I do not
recall formulated my opinion that she was to some degree at least
having objections to my marriage.
Mr. JENNER. But did you have the feeling, and was it conveyed to you,
that she was quite affirmatively opposed to your marriage?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say generally; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Did Marina and your mother stay at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. In what period?
Mr. JENNER. Before they moved to the Executive House?
Mr. DULLES. Right after November 22--maybe the night of November 22. I
think they had a room and moved out.
Mr. JENNER. I thought the witness referred to the Adolphus Hotel
yesterday.
Mr. McKENZIE. He has not referred to the Adolphus Hotel.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that is right.
My first occasion to meet with my mother and Marina Oswald on November
23, 1963----
Mr. JENNER. That is a Saturday.
Mr. OSWALD. Was at the Adolphus Hotel, rather than the Baker Hotel, as
noted in my notes on page 10, in my diary.
Mr. JENNER. I had noted that, Mr. Oswald. And would you identify the
page to which you have reference now?
Mr. OSWALD. Page 10, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Page 10 of your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right. And I might point out at the time I wrote
it down in parens--"I believe." In other words, my statement was "I
received a call from mother while at the DA's office, and she advised
she was at the Baker Hotel--I believe."
Mr. JENNER. And your recollection has now been refreshed that that was
the Adolphus Hotel rather than the Baker Hotel?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am of the opinion now it was the Adolphus Hotel
rather than the Baker Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. And then the next day they were moved to or themselves
moved to Executive House.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. They were moved later on, on
Saturday, November 23, 1963, to the Executive Inn.
Mr. JENNER. Executive Inn that is called?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than Executive House?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. They went from the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas to the
Executive Inn?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is my understanding, that they did.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. DULLES. Were those quarters, as far as you recall, retained for
them by the Life people, Life, Time, Fortune people?
Mr. OSWALD. In my conversation with my mother on Saturday, November
23, while I was at the district attorney's office in Dallas, Tex.,
she related to me at that time that they had furnished her and Marina
Oswald and the babies three rooms at the Adolphus Hotel, and that Life
magazine was paying for these rooms, and that they could keep these
rooms as they wanted--as long as they wanted to be close to Lee and the
situation that was erupting in Dallas, Tex., at this time.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Did you, during this period of time, have occasion to visit them at the
Adolphus Hotel?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded in your memorandum.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Then I don't wish to burden the record by asking you about
it again.
Did you have occasion to visit them at the Executive Inn?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded in your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please.
Mr. OSWALD. That begins on page 14, at the bottom of the page, under
the date of Sunday, November 24, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And on that same day, did they move to the Inn of the Six
Flags?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right--later on in the afternoon, Sunday, November
24.
Mr. JENNER. Did you accompany them on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. I was in a separate car, but they were in
the same party.
Mr. JENNER. All three phases, Mr. Oswald--Adolphus Hotel, Executive
Inn, and the journey to and living at the Inn of the Six Flags, they
are recorded in your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.
Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time when differences arose between Marina
and your mother?
Mr. McKENZIE. You have covered that.
Mr. JENNER. Are you sure?
Mr. McKENZIE. I will submit it to the Chair.
Mr. DULLES. I would think so. I think that has been covered.
Mr. OSWALD. Did you want me to answer that, sir?
Mr. JENNER. We don't want it if it is repetitious.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that has already been testified to, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During the course of the days immediately following
November 22, 1963, whether at the Adolphus or the Executive Inn or the
Inn of the Six Flags, did any time arise, any talk with you or in your
presence, of a supposed possible conspiracy between the Secret Service
men on the one hand and Marina on the other?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that character arose, as far as you can recall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And I may say to you, Mr. Oswald, that the purpose of
asking you that question is a statement made by your mother that there
was a conspiracy between Marina and the Secret Service to turn Marina
against your mother and against your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, or the
memory of your brother.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say to the best of my remembrance of all happenings
at the Inn of the Six Flags that at no time, to my knowledge, was there
any type of conspiracy of that nature, and at no time was I aware of
any type of conspiracy that would even resemble that statement, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DULLES. As I recall, however, you have testified that you discussed
with the Secret Service the type of interrogation that the FBI were
carrying on, and that has been fully presented in the record.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Following November 22, 1963, you saw a good deal of Marina,
did you not in those few days? You were guiding her and advising her?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you already testified that on at least one occasion,
or maybe two, that you had taken her to your brother's grave in the
cemetery.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; on quite a few other occasions also.
Mr. JENNER. In addition?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And in your memorandum or diary--I don't know how we
described that, but I think variously as memorandum or diary.
Mr. JENNER. I would say memorandum, except the last pages a diary.
Mr. DULLES. In your memorandum you have recounted certain problems in
connection with the funeral arrangements. Is there anything else you
would like to add to that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not.
Mr. JENNER. On the basis of your participating in the course of events
subsequent to November 22, and your continuing presence at the Inn,
and advising your sister-in-law, Marina, do you have an opinion as
to whether the Secret Service or anyone else was overly influencing
Marina? Or even that they were attempting to influence her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe that--perhaps I did not get the full
statement there. I believe you included anyone, including the Secret
Service agents.
Mr. JENNER. Could we confine it to the Secret Service first?
Mr. OSWALD. All right.
In answer to that part of the question, I would say I felt like they
were not attempting to influence Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Would it be your impression that they were trying to be
completely fair, even leaning over backwards? Or do you have any
impression in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do have an impression and opinion on that.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state it?
Mr. OSWALD. That I felt at no time during our stay at the Inn of the
Six Flags during the week of November 25, 1963, including Sunday,
November 24, 1963, that the United States Secret Service agents that
were present at one time or another did anything other than to be
extremely helpful to Marina, and not to the point of attempting to
affect her judgment or to, so to speak, put words into her mouth, or
in any way lead her with relation to the events that had occurred on
November 22, 1963, or prior events that she had recorded on her tape
recording interview in the Inn of the Six Flags, or the events that
happened Sunday, November 23, 1963, until the time she left the Inn of
the Six Flags.
In other words, they conducted themselves in a highly admirable way at
all times.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give us your same opinion with respect to
the FBI?
Mr. OSWALD. As I testified yesterday, sir; I was of the opinion on the
first and the second interview--and I refer to the first interview
as I did yesterday as an attempted interview, and I referred to the
second interview, to the best of my recollection it was the second
interview, at which time the FBI, in my opinion, kept Marina Oswald in
an interview to the extent that it had almost entirely exhausted her.
Mr. JENNER. Is this the occasion you related to us yesterday, or is
this another one?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is the second occasion, when there was an
interview.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us about that, and when it occurred?
Mr. OSWALD. This interview occurred approximately Wednesday night,
November 27, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, at which time the FBI agents
and Mr. Tom Kelley, of the United States Secret Service, left the
room that we had been staying in with Marina Oswald and went to the
adjoining set of rooms that was located, of course, right next to
the room we had been staying, and commenced an interview. It is my
understanding that Mr. Kelley was not present at this interview.
However, he was in the adjoining room to that set of rooms, and that he
was not permitted to be within the immediate interviewing area.
I do not recall the exact length of this interview. But as the night
progressed, it became at least apparent to me that due to the state
of Marina Oswald at that time, considering all the things that had
occurred, and the difficulty that she was having producing enough milk
for the baby Rachel, that they were extremely disregarding her own
personal welfare at this time.
And I did go to the adjoining rooms, and I believe Mr. Kelley opened
the door. And at that time I related to him that the babies had
awakened, and that they needed their mother, Marina Oswald.
He immediately informed the interviewers in the next room. And as my
memory serves me, Mr. Kelley turned to me and stated he was glad I did
that, and I stated to him that the babies were still asleep, and I did
it on the very purpose of stopping the interview, too, to the length
and the nature of Marina's welfare, and to the extent that that was
quite late at night.
Mr. DULLES. Were you present during the whole interview?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. I was in the adjoining rooms, keeping
an eye just in case the babies did wake and so forth.
Mr. DULLES. Was there an interpreter present at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Was that FBI or Secret Service interpreter?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my memory, sir, that was Mr. Lee Gopadze of
the United States Secret Service.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Gopadze was participating in the interview?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. But only as interpreter.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether Marina was or is
involved in any plot or conspiracy in connection with this affair?
Mr. OSWALD. May I have the first part of that question again?
(The reporter read the question.)
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion to the contrary?
That is, that she is not?
Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion, sir, that she is not involved in any
conspiracy or was involved in any way with the event that took place on
November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there?
Do you have any opinion as to whether any American security service,
Secret Service, FBI, CIA, were in any way involved in any conspiracy or
plot or otherwise involved in this whole affair?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, you are asking me of my opinion?
Mr. DULLES. Only your opinion, yes--obviously if you have information
or any evidence we would like to have it.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not have any evidence or information along
that line. I do have an opinion, sir, qualified to this extent. That it
is very difficult for me to feel that Lee Harvey Oswald acted entirely
on his own without any assistance whatsoever.
Now, whether this assistance was from my--from any member of any
government agency, or just individuals, I do not know. I do feel like
he had assistance of one nature or another, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, that does not answer Mr. Dulles' question. And I
want you to answer his question fully.
Mr. DULLES. My question was really directed toward any security agency
of the United States Government.
Mr. McKENZIE. If I may state your question, Mr. Dulles, to Mr.
Oswald--his question was whether or not any security agency of the
United States Government, whether it be the FBI, the Secret Service,
the CIA, or any Government agency, had any part in a conspiracy or
plot dealing with the events of November 22, and what your opinion is
concerning the same.
Mr. DULLES. That is correctly stated.
Mr. OSWALD. All right.
I would correct my answer to this extent, sir. I would be of the
opinion that no agency of the United States Government was in any way
involved with the assassination of the President of the United States
on November 22, 1963.
Does that answer the question?
Mr. JENNER. Or in any way involved with your brother's, Lee Harvey
Oswald. Would you go that far?
Mr. OSWALD. When we say involved, sir--excluding the interviews that I
am aware of and so forth. Yes, sir; I would be of that opinion.
Mr. DULLES. To which you have testified with regard to the FBI and the
Immigration and Naturalization.
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate further, please, when you first
undertook to answer Mr. Dulles question--you made some references to an
opinion on your part that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, must have
had some assistance.
Would you please state what you had in mind there? Assistance with
what, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. My opinion on that, sir, would be that, concluding that
Lee Harvey Oswald did actually shoot the President of the United
States and Governor Connally of Texas on November 22, 1963--I do feel
that he did have assistance to the extent that perhaps some money was
given to him, and that other types of assistance, such as perhaps
training and orientations as to perhaps the method to be used.
I believe that would conclude my opinion on the assistance I had
reference to.
Mr. JENNER. This is based, I gather from what you have just said, on
the assumption or opinion--I will say assumption first--that your
brother Lee Harvey Oswald did assassinate President Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And do you have that opinion?
Mr. OSWALD. That he did assassinate the President of the United States?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. On his own, sir?
Mr. DULLES. Did he handle the gun and shoot the shots?
Mr. JENNER. Let's take it in alternatives. You state it in your own
words.
Mr. McKENZIE. He has stated this once before, but I am going to ask him
to state it again.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like to have that clearly stated.
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, as I previously testified to that question, based on
the circumstantial evidence that has been put forth and that I have
read from the newspapers and general impression of the time that the
event took place, and the subsequent following days of that event, that
I would be of the opinion, purely based on these circumstantial points,
that he did actually fire the rifle that killed the President of the
United States and wounded the Governor of Texas, Mr. Connally.
Mr. DULLES. The same would apply to the attack on Officer Tippit?
Mr. OSWALD. I would base my opinion on Officer Tippit's death, sir,
on my conversation with the District Attorney of Dallas, Tex., on
the morning of Saturday, November 23, 1963, at which time during our
conversation he said in his mind and based on the evidence and the eye
witnesses, that he was reported to have, that there was no question to
him that Lee Harvey Oswald did in fact kill Officer J. D. Tippit in
Dallas, Tex.
Mr. McKENZIE. And you believe that would be correct?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that would be correct.