_Socr._ When, therefore, you spoke thus, I supposed that rhetoric could
never be an unjust thing, since it always discourses concerning justice.
But when you said shortly afterwards that a rhetorician might use
rhetoric unjustly, then, wondering, and thinking that the two statements
did not accord, I made that remark, that if you should think it a gain
to be confuted, as I do, it was worth while to continue the discussion,
but if not, to give it up. Afterwards, however, when we were
investigating the matter, you see yourself that it is again allowed to
be impossible for a rhetorician to make an unjust use of rhetoric, and
to be willing to act unjustly. How the case really stands, by the dog,
Gorgias, requires no little discussion to examine it thoroughly.
38. _Pol._ What then, Socrates? Have you really such an opinion of
rhetoric as you now say? or do you not think that Gorgias was ashamed
not to acknowledge that the rhetorician knows what is just, beautiful,
and good, and that, if any one should come to him ignorant of these
things, he himself would teach them? Then perhaps from this admission
some inconsistency in his arguments followed; the very thing which you
love, yourself leading the way to such questions. For who do you think
will deny that he knows what is just, and can teach it to others? To
lead the discussion to such matters is a piece of great rusticity.
_Socr._ Most excellent Polus! we get ourselves friends and sons, for
this express purpose, that when we, through being advanced in years,
fall into error, you that are younger, being with us, may correct our
life both in deeds and words. If, then, Gorgias and I have fallen into
any error in our arguments, do you who are present correct us: you ought
to do so. And I wish that if any of the things that have been granted
appear to you to have been improperly granted, you would retract
whatever you please, only I beg you beware of one thing.
_Pol._ What is that?
39. _Socr._ That you would restrain that prolixity of speech which at
first you attempted to employ.
_Pol._ What? shall I not be allowed to speak as much as I please?
_Socr._ You would indeed be very badly treated, my excellent friend, if,
having come to Athens, where of all Greece there is the greatest liberty
of speech, you alone should here be deprived of this liberty. But set
this against it: if you speak in a prolix manner, and will not answer a
question put to you, should not I be badly treated, if I am not allowed
to go away and not listen to you? But if you feel any interest in the
discussion that has taken place, and wish to correct it, as I just now
said, retract whatever you please, and questioning and being questioned
in turn, as Gorgias and I did, confute and be confuted. For you profess,
surely, to know the same things as Gorgias; is it not so?
_Pol._ I do.
_Socr._ Will not you, then, also bid any one ask you what question he
pleases, as knowing how to answer him.
_Pol._ Assuredly.
_Socr._ Then do whichever of these you please, ask or answer.
40. _Pol._ I will do so; and do you answer me, Socrates. Since Gorgias
appears to you to be in doubt respecting rhetoric, what do you say it
is?
_Socr._ Do you ask me what kind of art I say it is?
_Pol._ I do.
_Socr._ To tell you the truth, Polus, it does not appear to me to be an
art at all.
_Pol._ What, then, does rhetoric appear to you to be?
_Socr._ A thing which you say produced art, in the treatise which I
lately read.
_Pol._ What do you say this is?
_Socr._ A certain skill.
_Pol._ Does rhetoric, then, appear to you to be skill?
_Socr._ To me it does, unless you say otherwise.
_Pol._ Of what is it the skill?
_Socr._ Of procuring a certain gratification and pleasure.
_Pol._ Does not rhetoric, then, appear to you to be a beautiful thing,
since it is able to gratify mankind?
_Socr._ What, Polus? Have you already heard from me what I say it is,
that you afterwards ask me, if it does not appear to me to be beautiful?
_Pol._ Did I not hear you say that it is a certain skill?
_Socr._ Since, then, you prize giving pleasure, are you willing to give
me a little pleasure?
_Pol._ I am.