M. DUBOST: Your Honor, I would like to state to the Tribunal that we
have no reason whatsoever to fear a cross-examination of our witness or
of this morning’s witness, at any time; and we are ready to ask our
witnesses to stay in Nuremberg as long as may be necessary to reply to
any questions from the Defense.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Babel, in view of the offer of the French Prosecutor
to keep the witness in Nuremberg, the Tribunal will allow you to put any
questions you wish to put to him in the course of the next 2 days. Do
you understand?
HERR BABEL: Yes.
DR. KURT KAUFFMANN (Counsel for Defendant Kaltenbrunner): Before I
question the witness, I allow myself to raise one point which, I
believe, will have an important influence on the good progress of the
proceedings. The point I wish to raise is the following, and I speak in
the name of my colleagues as well: Would it not be well to come to an
agreement that both the Prosecution and the Defense be informed the day
before a witness is brought in, which witness is to be heard? The
material has now become so considerable that circumstances make it
impossible to ask pertinent questions, questions which are urgently
necessary in the interest of all parties.
As far as the Defense is concerned, we are ready to inform the Tribunal
and the Prosecution of the witnesses we intend to ask for examination,
at least one day before they are to be heard.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has already expressed its wish that they
should be informed beforehand of the witnesses who are to be called and
upon what subject. I hope that Counsel for the Prosecution will take
note of this wish.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, I thank you.
A point of special significance emerges from the statements of the
witness we heard this morning, as well as from the statements of this
witness; and this point concerns something which may be of decisive
importance for the Trial as a whole. The Prosecution . . .
THE PRESIDENT: You are not here to make a speech at the moment. You are
to ask the witness questions.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes. It is the question of the responsibility of the
German people. The witness has stated that the civilian population was
in a position to know what was going on. I shall now try to ascertain
the truth by means of a series of questions.
Did civilians look on when executions took place? Would you answer this?
VEITH: They could see the corpses scattered along the roads when the
prisoners were shot while returning in convoys, and corpses were even
thrown from the trains. And they could always take note of the emaciated
condition of these prisoners who worked outside, because they saw them.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Do you know that it was forbidden on pain of death to say
anything outside the camp about the atrocities, anything in the way of
cruelties, torture, et cetera, that took place inside?
VEITH: As I spent 2 years in the camp I saw them. Some of them I saw
myself, and the rest were described to me by eyewitnesses.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Could you please repeat that again? Did you see the
secrecy order? What did you see?
VEITH: Not the order, I saw the execution and that is worse.
DR. KAUFFMANN: My question was this: Do you know that the strictest
orders were given to the SS personnel, to the executioners, et cetera,
not to speak even inside the camp, much less outside of it, of the
atrocities that went on and that eyewitnesses who spoke of them rendered
themselves liable to the most rigorous penalties, including the death
penalty? Do you know anything about that, about such a practice inside
the camps? Perhaps you will tell me whether you yourself were allowed to
talk about any observations of the kind.
VEITH: I know that liberated prisoners had to sign a statement saying
that they would never reveal what had happened in the camp and that they
had to forget what had happened; but those who were in contact with the
population, and there were many of them, did not fail to talk about it.
Furthermore, Mauthausen was situated on a hill. There was a crematorium,
which emitted flames 3 feet high. When you see flames 3 feet high coming
out of a chimney every night, you are bound to wonder what it is; and
everyone must have known that it was a crematorium.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I have no further question. Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other counsel for the defendants wish to ask any
questions? Did you tell us who the “green prisoners” were? You mentioned
“green prisoners.”
VEITH: Yes, these “green prisoners” were prisoners convicted under the
common law. They were used by the SS to police the camps. As I have
already said, they were often more bestial than the SS themselves and
acted as their executioners. They did the work with which the SS did not
wish to soil their hands; they were doing all the dirty work, but always
by order of the Kommandoführer.
This contact with the “green” Germans was terrible for the internees,
particularly for the political internees. They could not bear the sight
of them, because they realized that we were not their sort, and they
persecuted us for that alone. It was the same in all the camps. In all
the camps we were bullied by the German criminals serving with the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: M. Dubost, do you wish to ask any other question?