VEITH: This list was taken by the American official authorities when I
was at Mauthausen. I immediately went back to Mauthausen after my
liberation, because I knew where the documents were; and the American
authorities then had all the lists which we were able to find.
M. DUBOST: Mr. President, I have no further questions to ask the
witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the British Prosecutor want to ask any questions?
BRITISH PROSECUTOR: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the United States Prosecutor?
UNITED STATES PROSECUTOR: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any members of the Defense Counsel wish to ask any
questions?
HERR BABEL: I am the defense counsel for the SS and SD. Mr. President, I
was in the Dachau Camp on Saturday and at the Augsburg-Göggingen Camp
yesterday. I found out various things there which now enable me to
question individual witnesses. I could not do this before, as I was not
acquainted with local conditions. I should like to put one question. I
was unable to attend here this morning on account of a conference to
which I was called by General Mitchell. Consequently I did not have the
cross-examination of the witness this morning. I have only one question
to put to the witness now. I should like to ask whether I may
cross-examine the witness further later, or if it is better to withdraw
the question?
THE PRESIDENT: You can cross-examine this witness now, but the Tribunal
is informed that you left General Mitchell at 15 minutes past 10.
HERR BABEL: Yes, but as a consequence of the conference I had to send a
telegram and dispatch some other pressing business so that it was
impossible for me to attend the session.
THE PRESIDENT: You can certainly cross-examine the witness now.
HERR BABEL: I have only one more question, namely: The witness stated
that the officers in question were driven toward the wire fence. By whom
were they so driven?
VEITH: They were driven to the barbed wire by the SS guards who
accompanied them, and the entire Mauthausen staff was present. They were
also beaten by the SS and by one or two “green” prisoners, who were with
them and who were the “Kapo.” In the camps these “green” prisoners were
often worse than the SS themselves.
HERR BABEL: Thus, in the Dachau Camp, inside the camp itself, within the
wire enclosure, there were almost no SS guards, and that was probably
also the case in Mauthausen? However . . .
VEITH: Inside the camp there was only a limited number of SS, but they
changed, and none of those who belonged to the troops guarding the camp
could fail to be aware of what went on in it; even if they did not enter
the camp, they watched it from the watchtowers and from outside, and
they saw precisely everything.
HERR BABEL: Were the guards who shot at the prisoners inside or outside
the wire enclosure?
VEITH: They were in the watchtowers in the same line as the barbed wire.
HERR BABEL: Could they see from there that the officers were driven to
the barbed wire by anyone by means of blows? Could they observe that
they were driven there and beaten?
VEITH: They could see it so well that once or twice some of the guards
refused to shoot, saying that it was not an attempt to escape and they
would not shoot. They were immediately relieved from their posts, and
disappeared.
HERR BABEL: Did you see that yourself?
VEITH: I did not see it myself, but I heard about it; it was told by my
Kommandoführer among others, who said to me, “There’s a watchguard who
refused to shoot.”
HERR BABEL: Who was this Kommandoführer? The chief of the group?
VEITH: The Kommandoführer was Wielemann. I do not remember his rank. He
was not Unterscharführer, but the rank immediately below
Unterscharführer, and he was in charge of the Hollerith section in
Mauthausen.
HERR BABEL: I thank you.
I have no more questions to ask just now. I shall, however, make
application to call the witness again, and I shall then take the
opportunity to ask the rest, to put such further questions to him as I
consider necessary. I request you to retain him for this purpose, here
in Nuremberg. I am not in a position to cross-examine the witness this
afternoon, as I did not hear his statements this morning, and I would
request that the witness . . .
THE PRESIDENT: You ought to have been here. If you were released from an
interview with General Mitchell at 10:15, there seems to the Tribunal,
to me at any rate, to be no reason why you should not have been here
while this witness was being examined.
HERR BABEL: Mr. President, this morning I discussed with General
Mitchell some questions with which I have been occupied for a long time.
General Mitchell agreed in the course of our conversation that my duties
and activities are so extensive that it will now be necessary to appoint
a second defense counsel for the SS; my presence at the sessions claims
so much of my working time and has become so exhausting and so
burdensome that I am often compelled to be absent from the Court. I am
sorry, but in the prevailing circumstances, I cannot help it.
Further, I would like to say this: So far, over 40,000 members of the SS
have made applications to the Tribunal; and although many of these are
collective and not individual applications, you can imagine how wide the
field is.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, no doubt your work is extensive, but this morning,
as I have already told you, General Mitchell has informed the Tribunal
that his interview with you finished at 10:15; and it appears to the
Tribunal that you must have known that the witnesses who were giving
evidence this morning were giving evidence about concentration camps.
In addition to that, you had obtained the assistance of another counsel,
I think, Dr. Marx, to appear on your behalf, and he did appear on your
behalf; and he will have an opportunity of cross-examining this witness
if he wishes to do so now. The Tribunal considers that you must conclude
your cross-examination of this witness now. I mean to say, you may ask
any further questions of the witness that you wish.
HERR BABEL: It all amounts to whether I can put a question, and this I
cannot do at the moment; therefore, I must renounce the
cross-examination of the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any other questions to put, M. Dubost? There
may be some other German counsel who wish to cross-examine this witness.