The testimony of John Raymond Hall was taken at 4 p.m., on March 24,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise, please, and I will swear you in. Do you
solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give?
Mr. HALL. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Hall, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member
of the legal staff of the President's Commission to investigate the
assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your
testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by
Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of
Congress 137.
Copies of those two documents and also of the Commission's Rules of
procedure governing the taking of testimony have been sent to you, I
believe, in a letter from Mr. Rankin in which he indicated that I would
contact you this week to take your testimony.
Have you received copies of those documents?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to examine you briefly concerning whatever
knowledge you might have of Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of contacts
that you had with him after his return from the Soviet Union.
Mr. HALL. So that this doesn't overlap what my wife would say, would
you like for me to just completely eliminate anything except when just
he and I were together, or would you, if it overlaps, does it make any
difference?
Mr. LIEBELER. I think I want you to tell generally the contacts that
you had with Oswald, but I will bring that out. What is your full name?
Mr. HALL. John Raymond Hall.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. HALL. 4760 Trail Lake Drive, Fort Worth.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment?
Mr. HALL. Self-employed. Dental laboratory.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of your company?
Mr. HALL. Crown & Bridge Prosthesis.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a native born American?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?
Mr. HALL. Birmingham, Ala.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?
Mr. HALL. I was born in 1928 and moved in approximately 1931.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?
Mr. HALL. I beg your pardon, I moved to Garland. From Birmingham to
Garland in 1931. And in 1946, we moved to Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then did you move to Fort Worth?
Mr. HALL. Then I went into the service after going to college in 1948.
And then in 1956--in 1955, the latter part of 1955, I moved to Fort
Worth.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?
Mr. HALL. 1928.
Mr. LIEBELER. 1928?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your wife's name?
Mr. HALL. Elena Hall.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you married to Mrs. Hall?
Mr. HALL. In 1959. September the 11th, 1959.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you were subsequently
divorced?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then you were subsequently remarried?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you remarried?
Mr. HALL. In November of 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of
Lee Oswald?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that?
Mr. HALL. The first time was during the latter part of these marital
difficulties with my wife whom I was divorced with at the time.
I had started my business in Odessa, Tex., and I believe this was in
about August of 1962, when I was making many trips from Odessa to Fort
Worth, for the purpose of seeing my wife. And the first time, I believe
it was in August of 1962, that I met Oswald, was about--when I made one
of these weekend trips. I came in on Friday night or Saturday, and she,
through her friends, mostly foreign born, George Bouhe and Gali Clark,
although Gali wasn't involved in this----
Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife was born in Russia?
Mr. HALL. She was born in Tehran, Iran. Her mother and father were born
in Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does your wife speak Russian?
Mr. HALL. Yes; her mother and father moved to Iran when they were in
their middle 20's, so actually my wife is Iranian.
All right, then when I met Oswald is on one of these weekend trips.
As I understood my wife when I came in that weekend, this ex-GI and
ex-marine and his Russian-born wife have some difficulties along the
line of finding jobs and so forth, and getting along. We went over to
their apartment near Montgomery Ward in Fort Worth with George Bouhe,
and I forget the people's names, they were over there from Dallas--De
Mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband, I believe that is.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be Gary and Alexandra Taylor?
Mr. HALL. Yes; we discussed what was going to happen, and in this
Oswald was going to move to Dallas and try to locate a job. In the
meantime, since my business was in Odessa, financial difficulties they
already were having, Marina would move in with my wife and live there
while Oswald came to Dallas and got a job and got himself settled.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald had any job at that time?
Mr. HALL. At that time he did not have a job, and George Bouhe and I
discussed this.
That afternoon I called my father, who is with the Murray Gin Co. here
in Dallas, because they have a machine shop and such. Oswald told me
that he worked in sheet-metal work in Russia, and so I called dad, and
dad said that he didn't think they had anything. And I told George
Bouhe that if he would check with personnel in the morning--that was
on Saturday--if he would check with them on Monday morning and see, we
would like to give this guy a job.
It turned out that George called my father and dad talked to the
personnel manager and there wasn't anything available at the Murray
Co. Then through hearsay, actually Oswald came to Dallas and got a job
through the Texas Employment Commission, and that was that for the time
being.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that Oswald got a job
through the Texas Employment Commission?
Mr. HALL. George Bouhe, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you went to Oswald's apartment in Fort Worth this
first time with Bouhe and the other people that you mentioned, did you
then meet Oswald?
Mr. HALL. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to him, and did he speak to you?
Mr. HALL. Yes; we talked at length.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me generally what he said and what you
talked about?
Mr. HALL. Maybe it is the whole pattern, but he had just gotten back
from downtown Fort Worth, walking. On the way over there my wife was
telling me how destitute they were. This was my first impression.
So when I walked in, he had just been to town to buy this 50-cent
magazine on Russia, which of course I thought, to myself, here they are
destitute and he is spending 50 cents on a magazine, especially about
Russia.
We visited that afternoon. We were there for an hour or so, and nothing
really important was said, that I can think of.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about his trip to Russia?
Mr. HALL. Not a whole lot at this time. We were sort of impressed by
his trip to Russia. The emphasis was on getting him moved to Dallas and
getting him a job, so actually that was the main concern and talk at
that time, and most of it really went on by George Bouhe and myself and
this Taylor fellow.
Do you mind if I smoke?
Mr. LIEBELER. Certainly not.
Go right ahead.
Did you and Oswald at any time ever discuss his trip to Russia in any
detail?
Mr. HALL. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when that was?
Mr. HALL. Yes; the first time which wasn't really much in detail,
several weeks later my wife had an automobile accident and I flew in
from Odessa on Wednesday or Thursday morning.
I believe she had the accident on Wednesday, and I flew in on Thursday
morning. I went straight to the hospital and saw she was all right, and
spent most of the day there.
And because Marina was staying at our home at that time, and this was
the period during the divorce, I stayed in a motel, the Landmark Lounge.
The next couple of days Gali Clark, Mrs. Max Clark, took me by the
house to get some clothes or something, where I was there just a few
minutes and only Marina was there. That was the only contact I had with
Marina, Thursday or Friday.
Then Oswald was in Dallas during this period of time on Saturday, and I
was going back and forth from the motel to the hospital.
Then on Saturday Oswald came over, and his wife, who was staying at our
house, as I mentioned, Marina fixed borsch, Russian soup, for Mr. and
Mrs. Clark, Lee Oswald, and myself, and I ran out from the hospital and
ate with them.
And during this period of time we had gotten on this thing about Russia
a little bit, Max and Oswald and myself, and the conversation was
really led by Max.
He was questioning Oswald as to the whole pattern, the whole system
of government, the way it was really operated, as to the communistic
principles and how jobs were secured and how people lived, and so forth.
This was about all that was said there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the question come up as to why Oswald went to Russia
in the first place?
Mr. HALL. Not then. At this time I just ran out and ate soup, and they
were still in conversation when I left to go back to the hospital, so I
only stayed possibly an hour. Maybe 45 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald, or ever participate in a
discussion in which the question as to why he went to Russia came up?
Mr. HALL. Just generally. The next time I saw Oswald after--this was
the car wreck; then my wife and I went to New York, and then we came
back and we remarried November 17, I believe--we didn't see Oswald
again until Christmas when my wife fixed a little present, I think, for
the baby and we came to Dallas, and we had been to church, it seems
like. I think we spent the night at the Cabana Motel and went to church
at the Greek Orthodox Church, St. Stephens, and then visited them on
Sunday afternoon.
Wait a minute, no, I am talking about Christmas. That would have been
during the week--anyway, we came over and visited them at Christmas
time and brought the little baby girl, June, a Christmas present.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where Oswald lived then?
Mr. HALL. Yes; over in Oak Cliff at the first location in Oak Cliff,
Elsbeth Street. I believe it was on the corner in the red apartments.
Mr. LIEBELER. At that time did you discuss with them the reasons as to
why he went to Russia?
Mr. HALL. At this time, being Christmas and so, and I am not real
strongly religious--I mean not to any extreme, but I have my
firm beliefs, and I believe in God and the fundamentals of our
Christianity--I am a Baptist--I mentioned to Oswald--this is what
touched the whole thing off--they didn't have a Christmas tree. We
wondered why, because you can buy a Christmas tree for 39 cents,
probably a little one, and my wife, I think, asked why they didn't have
a Christmas tree, and Oswald said he didn't want a Christmas tree, that
he didn't believe in this sort of thing, that it was commercialized,
and so forth.
When he mentioned this, it got me interested in his thinking. This was
actually the first time I think that--this is the third time that I saw
him--I think this was the first time I felt he was odd, because when
he crossed me on religion, I mean just general religion, not anything
specific--when he crossed me on religion, then I was offended mentally.
I might not have seemed that way--I didn't get mad or anything, but I
didn't like it, and I asked him about, since he didn't have a car, I
asked him if Elena, when we went to the Greek Orthodox Church here in
Dallas, if we might stop by and pick him up and take him with us.
And he said, "Oh, no, he didn't believe in Christianity, that this
Marxism, Leninism, this book, whatever the name it was----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a book there?
Mr. HALL. I didn't see it if he did. He had a lot of Russian
literature, I saw, but I never really thumbed through it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific books or periodicals that he
had?
Mr. HALL. No; I really don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. HALL. Well, we differed on religion. So then he told Elena that he
didn't believe in Christianity and so forth, he said, "If you want to
come by and pick up Marina and take her to church, that is all right,
but I am not going to go."
About that time we left. The conversation wasn't interesting, and we
had gone over to take this little present to the baby, and we had
accomplished the purpose, so we left.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was it that you discussed with Oswald the reasons
why he went to Russia?
Mr. HALL. The next time was Easter, if I am getting all this straight.
I hadn't been in business long for myself. I was real strong for the
system of free enterprise, and I asked Oswald how he was getting along
down at the printing place, and he said, "Well, he was doing as well as
could be expected, except the fact was that he didn't have security in
his job and didn't like the whole setup."