And I told him, "Well, nobody has security actually. We have to work
and keep up with what is going on and keep getting ahead, and that it
seemed to me like he could stay down there for 2 or 3 or 4 years and
learn what had to be learned and open his own shop, and that he would
be bettering himself and making more money and having more niceties of
life.
And so the point is, with this system of free enterprise which I was
real strong for, because I was trying to get ahead, and so Oswald, he
told me that he was, he had already been discontent with the United
States, that he didn't have security, and he really didn't know where
his next job was coming from, and he heard through these theories that
everything was controlled by the State in Russia, and that that was the
reason he wanted to go, so to speak, and that is about it, inasfar as
he was just unhappy with all of our systems.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you that he had any desire to return
to Russia?
Mr. HALL. Yes; and even at this time--in fact, I don't remember, I
don't know, it was probably at Easter, he said that he wanted to go
back.
And I know this to be real definite that--I don't know how you want
that--because when we first heard, when my wife and I first heard from
the Clarks that Oswald was in New Orleans, when he was down there word
got back, I don't know how it got back, but the Clarks told us he was
in New Orleans, and when we found this out, I told my wife that I knew
that he was down there to catch a ship and go to Russia.
So I don't know how he said this, but he left the impression with me,
or told me directly--I think it was more directly, because I know at
that time he wanted to go back to Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have a recollection that he said that to you in so
many words?
Mr. HALL. Yes; I am sure of this, because my wife, when Gali Clark told
her, and we found out he was in New Orleans, I was sure he was on his
way to Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he told you that at the time you met him at
Easter of 1963?
Mr. HALL. Yes; because this is really what impressed me on religion,
but things got stormy in this Easter meeting. I pushed him a little bit
harder at that time than I had before.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to you about his experiences in Russia during
the time that he had previously been there?
Mr. HALL. Yes; he explained to us about living in Minsk, about working
in the sheet metal factory, about how food was rather short, and about
the terrible expense of shoes and clothes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at the factory?
Mr. HALL. Max Clark asked him this at this soup luncheon, and I really
don't remember. I have read this in the newspapers, but I don't
remember what it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you in any way that he was receiving
income while he was in Russia from any source other than his job?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any hunting trips that he might
have gone on in Russia?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald owned a rifle?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with him any aspect of hunting or
the use of firearms?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't speak Russian, do you, Mr. Hall?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; this was a big disagreement at the first time we
met. I know I just didn't enter into the discussion, so it was just
about not wanting to teach his wife English. I was really upset about
it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he didn't want his wife to learn
English?
Mr. HALL. He wanted to perfect his Russian. He thought it more
important for him to further himself in the Russian language than for
her to learn English.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina
Oswald did understand any English, or to what extent she understood
English?
Mr. HALL. All the time, every meeting we had, I didn't feel like she
could understand anything further than hello.
Mr. LIEBELER. You first met them, as you said, in Fort Worth in the
fall of 1962, and the last time you saw them was at Easter of 1963?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you maintain that opinion about Marina's ability to
use English throughout that entire time, is that correct?
Mr. HALL. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever express any resentment against the U.S.
Government for any reason that you can remember?
Mr. HALL. Not specifically. Just feeling. Like on capitalism, and I
don't know if this is related to the time Max Clark and I were together
with Oswald, and I don't know, Oswald didn't say this, somebody told
me like George Bouhe, that Oswald felt--and we are just middle-income
people--but he felt he didn't like us, because he felt like we were
true capitalists, and that was just because we had a television set in
the bedroom and one in the living room.
This was bitter to him. He didn't like that fact and didn't like
electric can openers and things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. He expressed that, a general resentment of the social
system?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him say anything about President
Kennedy?
Mr. HALL. Never.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about Governor Connally?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you why he decided to come back to the
United States and leave Russia?
Mr. HALL. I really don't think so. The only reason I hesitate there is
because, of course I read this in the paper, but he was talking about
wanting to go back to Russia, and again I say I am not sure that he
told me directly that he wanted to go back to Russia, either Christmas
or Easter, or both because it was so firm in my mind that he wanted to
go back to Russia.
And after I read in the papers that after he had only been to Russia
about a year, he was trying to come back to the United States, I
wondered why.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he never did tell you, and you never asked him about
it?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an opinion about Oswald during the time
that you knew him, based on your acquaintance with him and the times
that you saw him?
Mr. HALL. Well, the first time we met him of course we all thought he
was so-called egghead, or whatever words you want to use.
And I am sure that if it hadn't been for the fact that we had feelings
for his wife, we felt sorry for them because some friends of ours gave
my wife some clothes to give to Marina, and, of course, wanted to help
her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who were they?
Mr. HALL. Mrs. I. J. Flere. She gave some clothes, and I don't know, I
think there were several people. My wife would know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Gave clothes to Marina?
Mr. HALL. Yes; as well as George Bouhe. I think he gave $10 or $15 to
my wife to buy some groceries for her and these things happen where
people contributed to help. But I think I formed an opinion of him
the first 5 minutes I met him when he came back from town with this
magazine, because I couldn't figure wasting the money on literature. I
had a definite opinion, and it got worse and worse, and the only reason
we went back Christmas and Easter was because the baby, Elena wanted to
take her an Easter bunny.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't as of then like Oswald particularly?
Mr. HALL. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was mentally unstable in any way?
Mr. HALL. I never really thought of this at the time. Looking back on
it now, he was certainly abnormal, in the way we are raised.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no thoughts at the time before the
assassination that he was mentally unstable in any way?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never regarded him as being a dangerous individual in
any respect, did you?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you really consider or question, or you just never
thought of it?
Mr. HALL. Just never thought of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other thing that you might know
about Oswald as a result of your acquaintance with him that your wife
wouldn't know, that you think you should tell us about at this point?
I am correct in understanding, am I not, that your wife is really more
familiar with the Oswalds than you are, is that correct?
Mr. HALL. She is more familiar with Marina. As far as our meeting like
Christmas and Easter, I did the talking in a conversation with Oswald,
and Elena and Marina were back in the bedroom talking as women do.
Mr. LIEBELER. During that period of time that you knew Oswald, did you
become aware of the fact that he and Marina were having difficulties
with their marriage?
Mr. HALL. We heard that she was living with someone else at one time, I
don't know who. My wife can probably tell you. And we also heard that
he beat her up one time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any indication that he had beaten her up?
Mr. HALL. I didn't; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it your impression that the Oswalds were having
marital difficulties at the time Marina lived in your house or in Mrs.
Hall's house in Fort Worth?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. The only reason that Marina lived there at that time was
because Oswald didn't have an apartment in Dallas, is that correct?
Mr. HALL. To give him a chance to get settled; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you help the Oswalds move?
Mr. HALL. No. My wife moved Marina from their apartment there at
Montgomery Ward to our home in a pickup truck that she borrowed from
her employer at that time. But she didn't move, or neither of us helped
him move to Dallas. We were in New York when they moved to Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall when you went to New York?
Mr. HALL. Well, we got back--we were married on the 17th.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of November?
Mr. HALL. Yes; I believe. We left about 2 weeks earlier than that,
which would be about, say, November the 1st, 2d, or 3d, and I came back
and--a week later, and went directly to Odessa, finished my business,
and moved back to Fort Worth, met my wife at the plane on the 16th, and
we were married on the 17th.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how long Marina had been living with your
wife before you went to New York? In other words, when did Marina first
move into the house with your wife?
Mr. HALL. Well, she would have moved in in the late, the latter part of
October, because since she left during the week that my wife actually
came back from New York--you see I came back a week earlier than she
did, and she moved out during the last week that my wife was in New
York, and that was the middle of November. It would mean that since
she stayed in our home about 3 weeks, she moved there the latter part
of October, and moved out the middle of November. We don't really know
what day, I don't think.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you weren't there when she moved out?
Mr. HALL. No; we were in New York.
Mr. LIEBELER. She was gone when you got back?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea where Oswald was living in Dallas
during the time his wife was living in your house?
Mr. HALL. We understood--this is hearsay from George Bouhe, I
guess--that he was living at the YMCA.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you knew, he moved directly from the YMCA to
the apartments on Elsbeth Street, is that correct?
Mr. HALL. The next time we heard of him, he was living on Elsbeth.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other place he might have lived in
Dallas before taking that apartment?
Mr. HALL. Then he moved around the corner, around the corner from
Elsbeth to an upstairs apartment in a white house, whatever the address
on Neely Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. N-e-e-l-y?
Mr. HALL. I don't really remember the name, but it was upstairs, and it
was Easter, so they had moved between Christmas and Easter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend any money to Oswald?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your wife ever lent any money to them
or gave any money to Marina?
Mr. HALL. I don't know about money. She bought groceries for them, for
Marina, but as far as money, I don't think she ever loaned them any.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife buy groceries for Marina only during the
time that Marina lived in your house, is that right? Or did she buy
groceries for the Oswalds at other times?
Mr. HALL. No. I believe they did receive, the women contributed, and
George Bouhe bought some groceries over to their place by Montgomery
Ward.
Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time that Oswald moved to Dallas?
Mr. HALL. Yes; I believe so. I am not sure of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any idea how much groceries were given to
the Oswalds during that period of time, do you?
Mr. HALL. No; my wife would probably have a good idea of this in
dollars.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his military service?
Mr. HALL. I can't remember a thing being said, about his military
service.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you might know about
Oswald that your wife wouldn't be able to testify about, that you think
the Commission should know?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; I don't believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate a desire to go to Cuba or to
Mexico?
Mr. HALL. Not to me; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of his indicating such a desire to
anybody else?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been
arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mr. HALL. Not at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. You weren't surprised?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why not?
Mr. HALL. Well, exactly our feelings, Mrs. Clark called my wife and
said that they had arrested Oswald, and we had the television set in
our laboratory--at that time we were watching television and were on
the wrong channel and didn't get this until 5 or 10 or 15 minutes
later. We did get it, and when they mentioned it was Oswald, they were
sure it was Oswald, then all of us--I am talking about my wife and Mrs.
Clark and Max and ourself, subsequently talking, we said, "I am not
surprised at all. That is the kind of guy that would do something like
that." And this was generally the feeling among all the people we knew
that knew him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any opinion, or was any opinion expressed
during these conversations as to why Oswald would have done this, and
if he did it, what his motive was?
Mr. HALL. Well, we felt like he was not mentally disarranged. I
actually thought Oswald was pretty sharp with his words. I mean the way
he talked, he didn't talk like he was stupid. He was pretty sharp. If
he had the right training in the right direction, he could have done
something with his life. But I always thought he was just completely
out in left field in politics, that he didn't come close to us, so this
is actually my feeling, because he was so intent on his ideas of this
book that related to the Marxism theories, he was so intent and so
set--in other words, when you talked to him about this, you just didn't
have any idea at all that you were going to change him. Even though I
was trying to convince him that our system was a tremendous enterprise,
was the best, when I started talking to him, I didn't feel like I had a
chance to change his thinking.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think that these political attitudes of his were
somehow related to his involvement in the assassination?
Mr. HALL. Say that again?
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that these political attitudes or economic
attitudes that Oswald had provided him a motive to want to assassinate
the President? Or were related to it?
Mr. HALL. My--this is just my personal feeling, but I definitely
feel that he thought that he was going to destroy the middle of our
economic way of life by doing that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of a technique for him to express
his resentment against the structure of our society that he disproved
of? Is that a fair statement of your thinking?
Mr. HALL. Exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that Oswald desired recognition
for his abilities and for his ideas? Recognition from people generally?
Mr. HALL. No; I didn't think of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a feeling, or did you think about this
before the assassination?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't think he was different from anybody else in
that respect? You just never thought of it, or it never came to your
mind prior to the assassination, is that correct?
Mr. HALL. I felt just the opposite on the recognition part.
Mr. LIEBELER. He really didn't care what people thought about him?
Mr. HALL. No; maybe he was saying this wrong to me, what he really
believed. But from my thoughts, I thought that he would be happy
if he had this so-called job like he was talking about in Russia
and had complete security. And I thought this is just what he was
looking for in life, was complete serenity and happiness, no problems,
no money problems, no rent problems--you see what I mean, just a
middle-of-the-roader.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you didn't think he had any desire to stand out or be
excellent at things?
Mr. HALL. When I said middle-of-the-road, he had these firm ideas
which couldn't be changed, as far as I am concerned, and he would
go off in the other direction. So that doesn't lead him to be a
middle-of-the-roader. He is, from my thinking, a rebellious-type
person. He is going to do it the way he thinks right, and nobody is
going to change him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear, or did you ever take part in any
discussion with anyone on the question of whether or not Oswald was
possibly an agent of the Soviet Union.
Mr. HALL. This came up after the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was no discussion about that prior to the
assassination, that you can remember?
Mr. HALL. As an agent for Russia before, no, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it never occurred to you at any time prior to the
assassination that Oswald might be a Russian agent?
Mr. HALL. We didn't figure he had sense enough in that respect.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider the question after the assassination and
you did discuss it?
Mr. HALL. Just enough to think, "Do you think it was possible." In
that--and my firm thoughts about it is that, of course, that is just
my thinking, but I don't see how there could be any connection. He is
not responsible enough to have authority above him. In other words,
he couldn't have anybody above him really telling him what to do. He
couldn't take the orders.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have a feeling that Oswald was resentful of
authority, generally speaking?
Mr. HALL. I say that, but if he lived in Russia, with their system, he
must have had a lot of authority above him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you in any way that he was
resentful of authority?
Mr. HALL. I don't know about our system of government in authority. He
was just resentful of, in my thinking, I don't know, well, he was just
resentful of our way of government. I don't know of anything to judge
him on, how resentful he was of his superior officers in the service or
anything like that, but he was resentful of our way of life. Not just
our government. He was resentful of our whole way of life.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you specifically, as far as you can
remember, why he was resentful of it?
Mr. HALL. Insecurity, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as jobs were concerned?
Mr. HALL. Basically, that's right; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't have anything else that you want to add at
this point, we shall terminate your deposition. Thank you, Mr. Hall.