Mr. ISAACS. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. That you were going to do it?
Mr. ISAACS. We as a rule do not have to ask these people. What we
can do in some instances is to find out what the occupation of the
relative is, which I think we got in our intake interview. You see, I'm
not positive about this, again, because I think that the worker got
his--the brother's name and address, whatever other information they
usually get about relatives.
Anyhow, to expedite matters, we always do it just this way. This
is not anything unusual with us. We call, and if we are lucky, and
somebody--someone tells us that they can send the money, we use these
funds to meet the transportation expenses to the place they are
requesting to return to.
Let's see--you want me--excuse me. Did you want me to continue?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; please go right ahead and tell us.
Mr. ISAACS. Because he protested so vehemently, I went to the
administrator, or Mrs. Ruscoll, the administrator, and asked her what
we were to do about this matter, and she decided to interview Mr.
Oswald herself.
I do know that Mrs. Ruscoll spent considerable time with Mr. Oswald,
although I don't know just what had transpired between them.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were not present during that conference?
Mr. ISAACS. I was not present, yes, sir; during her interview with him.
Later, however, she informed me that she telephoned Miss Elliott
of the New York State Department of Social Welfare, who instructed
Mrs. Ruscoll to use these funds despite his protestations, which we
proceeded to do, and Mrs. Ruscoll then notified him personally that
these funds have to be used for the family's return fare.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not have the final conversation with Oswald on
that subject yourself?
Mr. ISAACS. I had no conversation with him--my conversation with him
was quite brief. My conversation consisted of just telling him that we
were using these funds. It was a most brief conversation, as I remember
it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you have any other contact with Oswald after
Mrs. Ruscoll told him that these funds had to be used?
Mr. ISAACS. I don't believe I did have any. I can't remember. What I
did, I think, was to instruct the investigator to take him to some
hotel downtown that he would have to stay at until arrangements could
be made for his return the next day.
Mr. LIEBELER. So Oswald then, as far as you know, stayed in New York
overnight that night?
Mr. ISAACS. As far as I know, that is what happened, and I think that
the investigator was instructed to get him out the next morning, I
believe it was.
Incidentally, Mr. Liebeler, we did not have to spend any money on him
at all. He had some money on him when he arrived here. I don't remember
exactly how much he had, but he said that he could meet the expense at
the hotel, as I recall it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself prepare any reports on the Oswald case,
Mr. Isaacs, as best you can recall?
Mr. ISAACS. When you say "reports," I would like you to be specific.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you dictate a memorandum?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes. My telephone conversation with his sister-in-law I
believe was dictated in there. I don't remember now whether I indicated
or not that he would not not accept our decision. I might have put that
in there to point up the fact that I reported this to the administrator.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you had this difficulty with Lee
Oswald immediately after you called Texas, or could it have been on the
next day, do you remember?
Mr. ISAACS. I don't remember if there was a next day. I can't recall
that at all, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. The best of your recollection is that you saw him just on
one day?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes. I don't remember whether there was any other time that
I saw him. I think he was in the office that one time.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the address of your office?
Mr. ISAACS. 42 Franklin Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is where Mr. Oswald came in at that time; is
that correct?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald had talked to his brother,
Robert, about this money that Robert was going to send to New York?
Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall whether he--not in my presence.
Mr. LIEBELER. And to the best of your recollection, you did not learn
from any other source that he had talked to Robert Oswald about it; is
that correct?
Mr. ISAACS. That is right, I think that is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Oswald as to his
return from Russia?
Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall having such a conversation with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI in connection
with this matter?
Mr. ISAACS. Oh, yes, sir; I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have a report of an FBI interview that indicates that
you had told the FBI agent that you received the impression that Oswald
had had difficulty in leaving Russia, but you recalled a statement by
Oswald to the effect that he "caused so much trouble in Russia that
they had to send me back home." Do you remember saying anything like
that to the FBI agent?
Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall saying anything like that. Of course, this
is what the intake worker had said, and this is what was circulated
around in the office, but I don't recall having--I did not speak with
Oswald, and I don't recall having gotten this from him myself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard statements in the office to the effect that
Oswald had said that?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes; that's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You understood that Oswald had made a statement such as
this to the intake worker when he came into the office?
Mr. ISAACS. Probably he made that statement to the intake worker; yes,
sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard in the office that he had made that
statement to the intake worker, or was it just conversation in the
office, that Oswald----
Mr. ISAACS. I think it was conversation, rather than anything else, as
I remember it.
Mr. LIEBELER. We have obtained a file from the New York City Department
of Welfare which contains certain documents relating to the Oswald
case, and I would like to mark as Exhibit No. 1 on the deposition of
Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, at New York, N.Y., a document entitled
"History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, fastened together with a
clip. I have initialed the first page of this exhibit, Mr. Isaacs, and
I would like to have you initial it next to my initials, if you would,
so that we have no confusion as to the identification of this document.
Mr. ISAACS. Sure.
(Document entitled "History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, marked
Exhibit 1.)
Mr. LIEBELER. This is, is it not, a document which was taken from the
files provided by the New York City Welfare Department?
Mr. ISAACS. This is, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize it as a type of report that is prepared
at a time when a client appears in your office?
Mr. ISAACS. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize it as the history sheet relating to Lee
Oswald?
Mr. ISAACS. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a single sheet which is entitled "Resource
Summary" and ask you if you recognize that as a form that is usually
filled out by an applicant.
Mr. ISAACS. I do recognize this as a form that we use in the department.
Mr. LIEBELER. That particular form here appears to be a carbon, does it
not?
Mr. ISAACS. What happens is that the original goes to the resource
consultant. We have a special section of the Department of Welfare that
receives these forms, and if it has any material on there that warrants
further investigation the resource section conducts the investigation,
but in this instance, as you will note, they said no resources in each
place in the form, and we just filed this in our record.
Mr. LIEBELER. The original of that would have been filed in the records
of the resource consultant; is that right?
Mr. ISAACS. I believe so, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. I will mark the single sheet entitled "Resource Summary"
as Exhibit No. 2 on the deposition of Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16,
1964, in New York, N.Y. I have initialed that document also, Mr.
Isaacs, and ask that you initial it for the purposes of identification.
Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir.
(Document entitled "Resource Summary" marked Exhibit 2.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that particular resource sheet as the
resource sheet that was filled out in connection with the Lee Oswald
case?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked as Exhibit No. 3 on the deposition of
Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, in New York, N.Y., a memorandum
from Lula Jean Elliott, senior welfare consultant, to Mrs. Ruscoll,
supervisor of the special services welfare center, dated June 14, 1962,
relating to the repatriation from the U.S.S.R. of Oswald, Lee, and
family, consisting of wife and 4 months' infant. I have initialed the
memorandum to which I have just referred and request that you do the
same for the purposes of identification, down at the bottom.
(Witness complies.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize this as memorandum from Miss Elliott?
Mr. ISAACS. Lula Jean Elliott.
Mr. LIEBELER. To Mrs. Ruscoll?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. That memorandum came from the files of the New York State
Department of Welfare in connection with the Oswald case? You recognize
that, do you not?
Mr. ISAACS. I do, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of any other event that you
yourself personally experienced with Oswald during this short contact
that you had with him that you haven't told us about?
Mr. ISAACS. There was nothing else that I could remember that was
different from what I had told you. It was just this flare-up with him,
which was somewhat dramatic, and because it was I thought it merited
bringing it to the attention of the administrator. We don't always
request that an administrator get in on a situation with us, because
she's not always available, and she as a rule does not want to get
involved. But in this particular case because it was a repatriate, and
we do deal with repatriates in a somewhat different manner--the Federal
Government is involved, because they reimburse us 100 percent for all
expenses--we did deem it necessary in this particular instance to bring
it to the attention of the administrator.
But to answer your original question, there was nothing else that I can
recall. I remember, just as they were leaving the office, walking in
that direction to just see that they were going down the elevator--we
assigned a worker--it wasn't Mr. Lehrman, as I remember; it was some
other worker--to just go with them to the hotel and help them along
with their luggage, et cetera.
The only other thing that I can remember was the administrator taking
his wife into the office--the clients very rarely go into the interior
of the office--and bringing her back toward her office. It's an office
that's over a block long--or a block long--and later I learned that she
brought her there because Mrs. Oswald wanted to breastfeed the child
and----
Mr. LIEBELER. So the administrator took her back into the office? To
feed the child?
Mr. ISAACS. Yes; to feed the child.
Mr. LIEBELER. What prompted you to call this case to the attention
of the administrator? Was it, as you have indicated, simply that it
was a repatriation case, or was it because of some peculiarity in the
behavior of this individual, or was it a combination of those?
Mr. ISAACS. Well, I would say it was a combination. He was rather
severe in his manner--for want of a better description at this time.
He was insistent. He stomped around and simply would not accept the
decision that this money would be forthcoming. And as a rule we don't
get this kind of reaction from the clients that we deal with. They
accept this kind of service that they get from us, and in fact they
are very happy to receive it, and they are very grateful. In this
case we had a different kind of attitude. It was one of resentment,
and we couldn't, at least on my level I felt I couldn't insist that
he take it until--rather accept the decision until I cleared with the
administrator.
Now, even Mrs. Ruscoll found it necessary because of his--I assume
because of the discussion that she had with him, she found it necessary
to call Miss Elliott, and Miss Elliott did, of course, supervise our
section, and her decision was to be final, and this is the decision we
used.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information in respect of this
incident or in respect of Oswald generally that you can think of at
this time that you think might be helpful in connection with this
report?
Mr. ISAACS. Well, I don't have any other information. All I can say
is that when this incident occurred, it did not cross our mind that
the--the name Oswald meant nothing to us. It did not cross our minds
that this was the person, and when we were looking at this on TV and
just hearing the story without actually getting a visual picture of
Lee Oswald it still didn't register with us. It was after I had seen
the picture on the screen and was horrified--well, we were horrified
without having seen that, but the additional horror because it was
somebody that you had actually met and helped to return to Texas.
At that point I called Mrs. Ruscoll and asked her if she knew who this
Lee Oswald was. She said she was calling Miss Bloomfield, who is
her--the field supervisor, and they said that--Mrs. Ruscoll said that
she's pretty certain that this is the person that we had met and helped
to return to Texas, and it was that--I think it was that telephone
conversation that was responsible for her having the case record pulled
the very next morning by our central office. Miss Bloomfield works out
of central office, and she--the case was no longer there, and she gave
it to the commissioner, as I remember it, and, of course, then I read
it in the newspaper that the commissioner had given this record to the
FBI.
Now, beyond that, I really--I wish I could be more helpful, but I am
sorry to say that this is all I know about the case.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have been very helpful, Mr. Isaacs. On behalf of the
Commission I want to thank you very much for coming in this afternoon
and giving us the testimony and producing the records that you have.
It is another example of the way in which the City of New York has
cooperated with the Commission and with the FBI in its work. We
appreciate it very much.
ISAACS. We are only too happy to help.