Mr. JENNER. When did you first become aware that Lee had entered the
Marines?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, not until he came in that Saturday.
Mr. JENNER. When he wanted to be stationed at Keesler Field?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right, that's what he said when he came through on
a Saturday, but then I never heard any more from Lee at all.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have already touched on some information
regarding when he went to Russia. Marguerite communicated with you
about the fact that he was in Russia; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, like I said, my son-in-law contacted her because
we hadn't heard from her in a very long time, so he looked in the
telephone book over there and found her number.
Mr. JENNER. What is your son-in-law's name?
Mrs. MURRET. Emile O'Brien. He called her and he told us that she said
that she had this accident, like I told you before, so I called her, I
think, or her brother--I can't remember which. Anyway, we sent her a
box of clothes at Christmas time, anything that we could think of, and
then I sent her money at different times during the week, as much as
I could afford and so forth, and she said she was trying to get this
hardship discharge for Lee so he could leave the Marines and come home.
It was pretty near time for him to get out, but when he came in, he
only stayed there for 2 days at her house, or 1 day, or whatever it
was, and he said, "Well, this is it; this is not for me," and he left,
and that's when she called me and she said she thought he was coming to
New Orleans and that he would be coming by bus, she thought, and that
maybe he would be coming to my house, but for me not to tell him that
she had called me, but I never saw Lee or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Did he contact you at all?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I never saw Lee or never heard any more from him until
the next thing I knew was when she told me she received this letter, I
think, from Russia.
Mr. JENNER. She called you and told you about that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, during all this time that he was in the Marines, he
didn't write you, did he?
Mrs. MURRET. I never heard from him; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The only time he saw you was on that one Saturday?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when he was here on that Saturday, he told you he was
going to be stationed at Keesler Field.
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about what his experiences had been in
the Marines?
Mrs. MURRET. He didn't say anything. It was a rush affair. He came up
and rang the bell, and he was in uniform, and he said, "What do you
think, the people on the bus thought I was a cadet, and here I am a big
Marine." We took him out to lunch, and we left him off at the Custom
House, like I said, and that was the end of that. But, maybe you might
like to know this: before Lee went into the Marines, while he was in
New Orleans and they were going to live on Exchange Alley, I think
he tried to join the service then, a branch of the service. I don't
know which branch or anything, but anyway, he must have gone to the
induction station and they told him that he could sign up if his mother
would sign. Now, he met her in town, I think, and he was all excited
and he wanted to join the Marines or whatever it was he was going to
join. I can't remember if it was the Marines, and he said, "If you
will sign for me, I can go." And she said, "No; I am not going to sign
for you," so he was very indignant about the whole thing, and he told
her that she was stopping him from going in, so then that went around
for a while, and then he came back and told her that if she would sign
an affidavit, go to the lawyer's office and sign an affidavit, that
he would be able to get in, so she went around to the lawyer's office
with him, and I think it was in Mr. Sere's office--he has expired since
then--and Mr. Sere told her, "Well, since you can't do anything with
him, and if that's what he wants to do, well, go ahead and let him
go." So the affidavit was signed for him to go in the service, so then
the next step was that when he got over to the place--I don't know
whether it was the auditorium or not that they sent him over with his
suitcase--but the person who was in charge there wouldn't let him sign
up, wouldn't let him go, and that was that.
Mr. JENNER. You mean they wouldn't take the affidavit? They wouldn't
admit him on the affidavit?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right, and so that upset him for a while, but he
said very little about it. And then he met someone in this branch of
the service who had taken a liking to him, and he used to go over there
and converse with him about different things in the service and so
forth. I don't know who he was or what they talked about or anything
like that, though.
Mr. JENNER. Was Lee an industrious boy as a high school boy? He didn't
seem to have worked much after school.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, of course, he was a young kid. I don't know what he
did at home. I know I never did have anything for him to do at my house.
Mr. JENNER. Did your boys work after school when they did go to school?
Mrs. MURRET. My boys?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. My boys--let's see. They always went to school, and during
vacation time, well they had paper routes and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. That's what I mean.
Mrs. MURRET. One of my boys had a paper route, and he bought about $900
worth of bonds, because I figured that I didn't need his money to feed
him, and by buying a bond every 2 weeks, he would have enough to go to
school later on, and it really came in handy, and then he used to pass
out public service bills. One of my boys had three jobs at one time. He
used to go to Loyola, where he was studying sociology, and he was given
a fellowship to work in Father Victor's office. He was a priest, and he
helped the father write a book, so he was given a fellowship that last
year, but he always worked his way, and Marilyn had went to school and
she had worked her way through school too, and Joyce, we helped pay her
way through, but she had to leave school for 1 year and go to work in
order to get back again to school, but now Lee just didn't think he had
to go to school. He said that he was smart enough and that he couldn't
learn anything at school, that nobody could teach him anything. I think
his mother thought he was very smart too, evidently, you know, because
she always upheld his brightness, and he was bright, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Did he do a lot of reading when he stayed at your home?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he didn't do much reading at my house, but she said
he stayed in the room up there where they lived and read all the time,
and that he had this little radio that he had taken apart and fixed,
and so forth, things like that, and he said he didn't have any friends
because it was no use, because they didn't like to do the things he
liked to do.
Mr. JENNER. Who didn't like to do the things he liked to do?
Mrs. MURRET. Lee's friends wouldn't like to do the things Lee liked to
do. Lee said that. Most of the boys had money, you know, and went out
on the weekends with girls and so forth, but Lee couldn't afford those
things, so he didn't mix, but he did like to visit the museums and walk
around the front and go to the park and do things like that, and you
very seldom can get a teenager to do that kind of thing these days not
even then. They don't all like that type of life, you know, but that's
what he liked.
Mr. JENNER. Was he inclined to want to be by himself?
Mrs. MURRET. What's that?
Mr. JENNER. Was he inclined to want to be by himself?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he said that that was the reason why, because I
asked him, "Why don't you go out with the boys from school?" and so
forth, and he said, "Well, they don't like the same things I like." But
I do remember when he was at my house he used to call some little girl
all the time and talk to her quite a long time on the telephone, and I
think he made friends with some boy at Beauregard School when he was in
the Sea Scouts for a while. He had a uniform and everything. He didn't
stay in there too long, I don't think.
Mr. JENNER. He wasn't in the Sea Scouts too long?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. Is there a Liberty Hotel here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. There could be.
Mr. JENNER. Or the Hotel Liberty?
Mrs. MURRET. There might be; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of apartment was that that your sister Marguerite
had on Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was a pretty nice apartment she had there.
Mr. JENNER. On Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that was a nice apartment that she had. A lot of
people would be surprised, because with all those poolrooms and
everything down below, it looks like a pretty rough section, but she
had a real nice apartment. I know we read in the papers about, you
know, condemning that section where the boy lived, and so forth, you
know, and all that sort of stuff, but they would be surprised at how
nice an apartment that was up there that they had. A lot of people like
to live in the French Quarter just because it's the Vieux Carre, and
because of that reason rents are pretty high.
Anyway, her rent was considered reasonable. She had her own bedroom,
and she had a large living room, and breakfast room and bath. It was a
very nice place, and she fixed it up real nice. Lee had the bedroom,
and my sister used to sleep on the studio couch and she found the
apartment really convenient, being right off of Canal Street and
everything. If she wanted to go to the movie, it was just down the
block, and if she wanted to go to any other stores, she was right in
that area where she could go, so actually it was economical to live
that close to Canal Street, so she actually saved money that way, she
told me.
Of course, they had these poolrooms and so forth in that section, but
I don't think that Lee ever went into those places, because he never
was a boy that got into any trouble. For one thing, he never did go
out. We all knew that he should have been going out, but he stayed in
and read or something. The average teenager who was going to school
at Beauregard would have probably been in there shooting pool and
things like that, but he didn't do that. His morals were very good. His
character seemed to be good, and he was very polite and refined. There
was one thing he did: he walked very straight. He always did, and some
people thought that was part of his attitude, that he was arrogant or
something like that, but of course you can't please everybody.
Mr. JENNER. But he did have a good opinion of himself, did he not?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from him when he was in Russia?
Mrs. MURRET. One time I heard--it was a postcard, and I think it was
the last Christmas that he spent in Russia, and he wrote this postcard,
and all he had on it was, "Merry Christmas," and he said on it, "Write
to my mother," and he gave me the box number on the card. Now, I wanted
to keep this card, but I had the children at the house at the time, and
I laid the card on the side, and I didn't copy the address when I did
write out a postcard to send to him, and in the meantime Gene----
Mr. JENNER. That's your son Gene?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he was at the seminary, and they were saving foreign
stamps in connection with something over at the seminary, so he took
that card with him, and after I had written the card to Lee, the
children tore it up, so I didn't have the address any more.
When I wrote to Lee--I didn't want to write anything in a letter, you
know, so I just wrote it on an open card, but the children tore that up
and I lost the address, so I couldn't write to him at that point.
Mr. JENNER. You did write a card, but your children tore it up?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, my grandchildren; it was just a postcard, you know.
Mr. JENNER. So there wasn't any communication between you or any member
of your family and Lee while he was in Russia, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. We just got that one card from Lee, and I
never answered it because the card was destroyed before I could mail it.
Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear about Lee? I mean now, before you
saw him, when next did you hear about him?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I just heard that he was over in Russia, that he had
defected to that country, but they came to New Orleans after that, and
then they went back to Texas.
Mr. JENNER. You mean Marguerite?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they were over here after that.
Mr. JENNER. Did she live in New Orleans for a while then?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. She just came for a visit?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she stay with you?
Mrs. MURRET. She stayed with me; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you had discussions during that time about his going to
Russia?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, not too much.
Mr. JENNER. What statements were made, if any? I mean, what was your
impression?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she seemed kind of upset about it. I mean, she tried
to get him to get back to the States, but she said he didn't talk to
her over the telephone.
Mr. JENNER. You mean she tried to reach him by telephone?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. The paper office over there in Fort Worth was
the one who contacted Lee at the hotel over there, but he didn't talk.
He hung up. I believe Robbie tried to get him back, and so forth, but
that's all I know about it. So then we didn't hear any more from her
after she left here. She said she was going to get lost.
Mr. JENNER. She said that to you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. She said nobody was going to know where she was going.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know why, so then I didn't hear from her any more
until one day the telephone rang and I answered the phone, and Lee
said, "Hello, Aunt Lillian," and I didn't recognize his voice, and not
thinking about Lee, you know, and I have other nephews, and I said,
"Who is this?" and he said, "This is Lee," and I said, "Lee?" and he
said, "Yes."
I said, "When did you get out? When did you get back? What are you
doing?" He said, "I have been back since about a year-and-a-half now,"
and I said, "Well, I'm glad you got back," and he said, "I'm married,
and I got a baby." I think he said she was 14 months old, so anyway, he
said, "Would you put me up for a while?" And he said, "I am down here
trying to find a job; would you put me up for a while?" And I said,
"Well, we will be glad to, Lee," but then I started thinking, because
if he had a wife and child, I would have to make other arrangements
maybe, and so I asked him, I said, "Lee, are you alone?" and he said,
"Yes," and I said, "Well, come right on out."
Mr. JENNER. This was in May or April 1963; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Just about a year ago?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember whether it was May or April, which month it
was.
Mrs. MURRET. It was way after Easter, I know. It was possibly the week
after Easter.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, he arrived at your home; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, he took the streetcar and bus, I suppose, to be
coming to my house, and he came out to the house and he was very poorly
dressed.
Mr. JENNER. How was he dressed?
Mrs. MURRET. He just had on a sportshirt, and a very poorly pair of
pants.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have a suit coat on?
Mrs. MURRET. A suit coat?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. No, he didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Was your husband home?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was anybody other than you home?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. What luggage did he have when he arrived at your home?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he came with anything over to the house. He
could have one of these bags, I mean when he came to my home from the
bus station.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this is particularly important to us. Let me take
you back now to just a year ago, and tell me first of all, as to your
recollection of whether he had any luggage with him when he arrived at
your house.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I asked him over the telephone where he was, and he
said he was at the bus station, and when I asked him to come out, he
came right on out, and when he came into my house, I think he was only
carrying just a little handbag, they call it.
Mr. JENNER. What color was it?
Mrs. MURRET. Possibly it was brown.
Mr. JENNER. Brown?
Mrs. MURRET. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of material was it?
Mrs. MURRET. What the handbag was made of?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. I think it was just cloth.
Mr. JENNER. A cloth bag?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have it in just one hand?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It was not a Marine duffelbag or anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. It wasn't too large, then?
Mrs. MURRET. No; it was small.
Mr. JENNER. The witness indicates about 14 inches.
Mrs. MURRET. It was just an ordinary bag, like athletes use to put
their clothes in, something like that.
Mr. JENNER. And that's all he had on that occasion? You are sure of
that?
Mrs. MURRET. When he arrived at the house; yes, sir. But he had things
over at the bus station.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. MURRET. He had a duffelbag and some boxes over there, I know.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?
Mrs. MURRET. How do I know that?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Because I asked Mr. Murret to go over to the bus station
and pick up all that stuff and bring it back to the house, which he
did, and they put it in the garage. He wanted to leave it there until
he found an apartment.
Mr. JENNER. And did Mr. Murret go to the bus station with Lee?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That evening?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In your automobile?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he picked up the materials at the bus station and other
packages; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you home when they came back from the bus station?
Mrs. MURRET. I might have been inside. I didn't go into the garage,
if that's what you mean, but that's where they put the things, in the
garage.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see anything in the garage eventually?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I saw a duffelbag out there, and I saw ordinary
cardboard boxes with things in them, and I don't know what was in
anything. It had U.S. Marine written over it.
Mr. JENNER. Over the duffelbag?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How many duffelbags were there?
Mrs. MURRET. Quite a few, I think.
Mr. JENNER. More than two duffelbags?
Mrs. MURRET. I could be wrong, but I think there were more.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that there were at least two duffelbags, and
that there could have been more than two?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I think some of the boxes must have contained baby
clothes and things like that, and in fact, I was wondering how in the
world he got all of that stuff on the bus. I never did ask him, but
he really had a load of stuff with him. It was all there at the bus
station though.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any long packages with him?
Mrs. MURRET. I wouldn't know that. Do you mean any visible long
packages?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any.
Mr. JENNER. These cardboard boxes, were they ordinary cardboard boxes
that a person would pack things in?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I guess there were clothes in those.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any long flat package with him?
Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any package wrapped in unbroken or tan
wrapping paper?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think. Like I said, I knew there were all kinds of
things back in there, all bunched up, more or less. Everything was in
such a little space back there, but it was all together, and my washing
machine is out there, but I never one time pried into or disarranged
any of that stuff or anything like that. I figured that wasn't any of
my business.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any package that stood up on end at all?
Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any like that; no.
Mr. JENNER. Anything that looked like, oh, say, a tent pole, long and
hard?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything that looked like that. There
were just some boxes and duffelbags and bundles that I saw, and I do
know one time he was back there when I was back there and he pulled
out a Russian cap that they wear in Russia, and boots, you know, these
leather Russian boots, but that's all I saw.
Mr. JENNER. Did the Russian cap have any insignia on it, or anything
like that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; the Russian cap had fur on it, like the Russians wear
in cold weather.
Mr. JENNER. Did it have any insignia on it, or a Red star, or hammer
and sickle or anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET. No; not that I saw. What struck me as odd that was that
Lee didn't seem to have anything to wear. I told him, "Lee, you don't
look too presentable. I am going to buy you some clothes." My boys were
all big, all over 6 feet, so nothing they had would fit Lee, so he said
no, that he had a lot of things, but that they were all packed. He
said that's all right, but all he had on at the time was a T-shirt and
pants, and I think he had only about two T-shirts with him.
Mr. JENNER. You say he had no suit coat?
Mrs. MURRET. No; and only one pair of shoes. I even offered to buy him
a pair of shoes, but he said no, that he had some shoes packed away.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get them out?
Mrs. MURRET. No, he didn't get them out. He said he just wanted to put
up there for a few days, you see, because he was trying to find a job,
he told me, and then he said he would send for Marina, his wife, and
the child, and I asked him to tell us what she looks like, you know, to
describe her, and he said, "Well, she's just like any other American
housewife." He said, "She wears shorts," and so forth, just like any
other American housewife, and he said he would have to have a newspaper
so he could scan the want ads and try to find himself a job, and so
every morning he would get up and go through the newspaper looking for
a job, and he would go out every morning with his newspaper, and he
wouldn't come back until the afternoon, until supper time. I had supper
anywhere from 5:30 to 6 o'clock, and he was there on time every day for
supper, and after supper he didn't leave the house. He would sit down
about 6:30 or 7 o'clock, and look at some television programs, and then
he would go right to bed, and he did that every day while he was at the
house, and so then on the first Sunday he was there, he was talking--we
were talking about relatives, and he said to me, "Do you know anything
about the Oswalds?" and I said, no, I said that I didn't. I said, "I
don't know any of them other than your father, and I saw your uncle one
time." I said, "I don't know anything about the family; I don't know
them," so he said, "Well, you know, I don't know any of my relatives."
He said, "You are the only one I know."
Now, this was on a Sunday, and Lee had come to my house on a Monday.
Now what he didn't tell me was that on Sunday he must have gone to
the cemetery where his father was buried. That's right at the end of
the Lakeview line, where I live. He went to the cemetery. I guess he
went to ask the person in charge about the grave. Anyway, he found it,
and while he was there he saw someone who knew the Oswalds. I didn't
get whether she was related or not, but they got to talking about the
family some way. I don't know what all they talked about, but anyway,
Lee looked in the paper and finally he found this job--I don't know
where it was, but it was up on Rampart Street, and they wanted someone
to letter.
Mr. JENNER. To letter?
Mrs. MURRET. To do lettering work, yes, and so he called this man and
the man said to come on out, so he went on out there to see about this
job.
First, while he was waiting for the appointment time, he sat down and
tried to letter, and well, it was a little sad, because he couldn't
letter as well as my next door neighbor's 6-year-old child, but I
didn't say anything, so when he got back he said, "Well, I didn't get
the job." He said, "They want someone who can letter, and I don't know
how to do that."
So that's when he got into the subject of the Oswald family again, and
he sat down and took the telephone book, and he called all the Oswalds
in the telephone book until he came to the one person who was the right
Oswald, and this was an elderly lady living in Metairie. She was the
wife of one of the Oswalds, so he told her--he had a map; he always
carried a map with him to find directions. If he wanted to go to a
certain place, he would never ask you how to get there. He would always
take this map and mark the route out himself.
So he went to see this lady, and she was the wife of one of the
brothers in the Oswald family, and she told him that everybody was
dead, I think, and she gave him a picture of his father, and she gave
him some other pictures, and then she invited him back. He said she was
a very nice lady, and was very, very happy, but I don't think he ever
went back to see her.
So the next day, Monday, well, he went back to his job hunting again,
and he continued that way until one morning he saw this job with the
Riley Coffee Co., and he went down and applied and he got the job, and
he came home waving the newspaper, and he grabbed me around the neck,
and he even kissed me, and he said, "I got it; I got it!"
Mr. JENNER. He was quite happy that he had gotten work?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I said, "Well, Lee, how much does it pay?" and he
said, "Well, it don't pay very much." He said, "It don't pay very much,
but I will get along on it."
I said, "Well, you know, Lee, you are really not qualified to do
anything too much. If you don't like this job, why don't you try to
go back to school at night time and see if you can't learn a trade or
whatever you think you can prepare yourself to do." And he said, "No, I
don't have to go back to school. I don't have to learn anything. I know
everything." So that's the way it was. I couldn't tell him any more.
I had told him what I thought he should do, but if he thought he was
smart enough, then there was nothing else I could do.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression when you were talking along
these lines that he really believed he was that smart?
Mrs. MURRET. He believed that he was smart; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You don't think he was spoofing you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I think he really thought he was smart, and I don't
think he envied anybody else. He thought he was very smart, and I don't
think he envied anyone else, because he thought he knew it all, I
guess. He didn't think he had to have a profession or anything else. We
didn't even know when he left this job.
Mr. JENNER. Well, before we get to that, while he was living with you,
did he read while he was home at night?
Mrs. MURRET. Did he read?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't read any books?
Mrs. MURRET. You see, he went out all day. He would get up and leave
early in the morning. He wouldn't eat any breakfast. I would try to
fix him an egg and bacon or something like that, but he didn't want
anything to eat for breakfast and he wouldn't take a thing. We always
eat a big breakfast in our family, but he wouldn't eat a thing. He
would just get dressed and go out with his newspaper to look for a job,
and come home in time for supper and then he would sit around a while
and watch television and then go to bed, and he followed that same
pattern all while he was with us, until he got this job with the Riley
Coffee Co.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk to you about Russia during that time, his
life in Russia, and how he felt about it?
Mrs. MURRET. No; the only thing he spoke about was the relatives. He
said in Russia all the relatives knew one another and he said they
all lived together, and he said if one comes in and he wants to stay
overnight, that they will put him up in a corner, or help him out with
clothes and so forth, but of course he worked in a factory while he was
over there.
Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he did tell me he worked in a factory and he did
work around the machinery, but that's all he told me about that, but
then when he got this job with the Riley Coffee Co. and started to work
there, he said, well, that was no different than any other factory in
Russia. I said, "Well, what do you mean by that?" He said, "Well, the
equipment was just as bad, the machines, and the work conditions were
not any different from Russia," but that's all he would say about it.
We didn't talk about it too much.
Mr. JENNER. Do you mean he inferred that the machinery at the Riley
Coffee Co. was outdated as compared with the machinery in Russia?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; as compared with the machinery in Russia, and he said
you had to work hard. He said they work you hard at the plant.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his reaction to Russia?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he never spoke about Russia that way. He would only
talk when you would ask him a question, that's all. He wouldn't ever
tell you anything. When he first came in and stayed with us. I asked
him a few things about Russia, but he wouldn't talk much about it. He
never expressed an opinion about Russia at all. About all he would say
was that they were just about like any other people. That's about all
he would say.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't talk then about his views on the Russian
government?
Mrs. MURRET. No; not to me. There was no time really. The way things
were, like I said, he would come home in time for supper and then watch
a little television and go to bed, and he never spoke about anything.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss his life in the Marines with you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he never talked about that either. He did say that
he was wanting to get out of Russia so that he could bring his wife
and child over to this country, and he said the Immigration Department
loaned him $365 and some odd cents, to use to get out of Russia, and
he said he worked for the Dallas or Fort Worth, for some photographer
in there, one of those places--I forget which--but he did say that he
worked until he paid it all back, and I said, "If you made that much
money on that job, why did they let you go?" And he said, "Well, they
didn't want a third man on the job," or something like that.
Mr. JENNER. They didn't want a third man on the job?
Mrs. MURRET. That's what he said, that they didn't want a third man on
the job.
Mr. JENNER. And you say that was in Dallas that he worked for this
photographer?
Mrs. MURRET. I think it was Dallas that he said; yes. It was either
Dallas or Fort Worth. I think it was Dallas. He said he liked the job
all right, but he said they let him go because they didn't want a
third man. Now, I don't know if that's a true story or not. So then he
came here to look for a job, and he said when he found a job, that he
would have Marina and the child to come over here. I think before that
time Marina had called, but he hadn't found anything then, so when he
called and told her he had this job, she must have been all packed and
everything, because they got here so quick.
Mr. JENNER. Well, did you hear him talk to her over the telephone?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he spoke in Russian, in the Russian language.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to him about that?
Mrs. MURRET. Did I say anything about him speaking to her in Russian?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't, but I did wonder about it, here was a man
speaking in Russian who was an American, and he had had his wife over
in this country for a year and a half, he said, and I did wonder why he
didn't try to teach her English, but anyway, he called her after he got
the job, and he got right off the phone and said, "I am going out and
look for an apartment." So sure enough he found an apartment the very
first day, and he came back and he said, "I have found an apartment,"
and I think it was $65 a month, he said the rent was. Then he told me
about a Mrs. Paine who he said had been very nice to Marina who was
going to bring Marina on down with the baby, and he said, "I would
like to get a very nice apartment with an extra room so if Mrs. Paine
wants to stay a few days, we will have a place for her to stay." And I
wondered about that too, renting an expensive apartment like he had in
mind, but apartments were hard to find about that time, and I told him,
"If you have a nice apartment, I think you had better keep it, because
it's just temporary," and it was a nice apartment, or at least that's
what he told me. He said, "Do you know how I got that apartment?" And I
said, "No, I don't," and he said, "Well, I'll tell you. I rode around a
while, and I decided to stop at Myrtle's house----"
Mr. JENNER. That's Myrtle Evans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he said he stopped at Myrtle's house and went up to
the door, and she came to the door but she didn't recognize him, she
didn't recognize Lee.
Mr. JENNER. He was telling you this; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he told me how he did that, and he said he asked
Myrtle did she have an apartment, that he was looking for an apartment
for his wife and baby who were coming from Texas, and so Myrtle said,
"Well, I'm sorry, but I only have an apartment on the second floor, and
I don't think that would be good, you know, for your wife." Lee said
to her, "Do you know who I am?" and she said, "No." And he said, "I am
Lee Oswald." She said, "Well, don't tell me! Lee, I would never have
recognized you." She said, "The last I heard of you from your aunt, she
told me you were in Russia," because I did see Myrtle one day and she
knew me. I never was what you would call a friend of Myrtle, but of
course she knew who I was, because we got to know each other at a card
party where I was working at Jesuit's, and she asked about Lee at that
time, and I told her that Lee had defected to Russia. So she told Lee
that the last time she had heard of him, he was in Russia, and he said,
"Well, but I am back, and I am married to a Russian girl." So Myrtle
says, "Well, come on, Lee," and I think she gave Lee some lunch, and
then she decided to help him find an apartment.
She told him, "We are not going to a real estate office, because prices
are high, and I know because I manage apartments myself, so we will
just ride in and out the streets and see what we can find." So they got
in her car and went riding up Magazine Street, and there was a sign on
a house, apartment for rent, and so they went and knocked and inquired
about the apartment, and the lady said how much it was, and it was
very clean with a new stove and a new refrigerator, and it was newly
wall papered and it had a floor furnace and a large living room and a
bedroom and bath connecting the bedroom, and another small room and
kitchen and a front porch, and a closed-in yard, and so Myrtle said to
Lee, "Lee, this is great. You had better take this place." Well, Lee
said, "Well, I don't know. The ceilings are high and Marina doesn't
like high ceilings," but she said, "Well, I think you had better get
this place, because it's all you can afford," so he said he would take
it. But I don't think Marina ever liked high ceilings, but anyway,
after he called Marina, then they came in on Saturday.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me for interrupting, but before we get them coming
in, did he ever say anything to you as to why he left Russia?
Mrs. MURRET. Did he say why he left Russia?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. He never did say why; no, sir. I was always under the
impression that he was just tired of being over there and wanted to
come back. We were trying to find out how in the world he got out with
a Russian wife, and I asked him that question, and he told me that
Immigration had loaned him the money, and he said that Marina's uncle
had helped them to get out, and that he was a retired army general.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression that he was, oh, never quite
satisfied with anything when he was in Russia, that when he was over
there, he didn't like it?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he didn't say that to me.
Mr. JENNER. All right, now you say that Marina then came to New Orleans
after he had called and said that he had found a job; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she came with Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine drive her?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they came in Mrs. Paine's car. In fact, I think he
got that apartment possibly on a Thursday.
Mr. JENNER. At 4905 Magazine Street?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; Thursday or Friday, or whatever it was.
Mr. JENNER. That was the ninth of September 1963; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. I guess that was the date.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee move in on Monday?
Mrs. MURRET. No; Lee moved in right away, on Saturday. In fact, he
moved in on the 10th, I think, or the 9th. Anyway after he got it, he
moved in himself the next day, and then Marina came in on the Saturday.
Mr. JENNER. Well, Saturday was the seventh, Sunday was the eighth, and
Monday was the ninth.
Mrs. MURRET. Of May?
Mr. JENNER. Oh, I am looking at September; I'm sorry. Now, let's see.
The 9th of May was on a Thursday, and that's when he got the apartment,
the 9th of May, and he moved in the next day; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right, and he came back to my house on that
Saturday morning.
Mr. JENNER. That's the 11th?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and Marina and Mrs. Paine were coming in on Saturday,
and they arrived there about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, around that
time, and then he took all the things he had out in the garage over to
the apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when he did that?
Mrs. MURRET. I went to see the apartment.
Mr. JENNER. But were you present when he took the things out of your
garage?
Mrs. MURRET. You mean in the garage?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't get any better look at all the things that he
had in the garage than you had that first day when your husband brought
that stuff from the bus station and it was put in the corner of the
garage?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. I was busy on the inside of the house when
he took all that stuff over to the apartment, because we were all
anxious to see--not all, but Marilyn and myself, wanted to see the
apartment, so inasmuch as we had to bring the things up there, he
loaded the car.
Mr. JENNER. Your car?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; our car. Mr. Murret drove the car up there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see them put the things in the car?
Mrs. MURRET. No; but they did put everything in the car.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see them do that?
Mrs. MURRET. No; but Mr. Murret helped. I knew he was doing that. He
had to do that. I didn't do it. I just wanted to go over there that
first day and see the apartment, so I was trying to finish up inside,
and I just noticed that he was loading the car, and that's something
else, the reason why Mr. Murret is considered just such a gentleman. No
woman in his presence ever picks up a package or anything like that.
Mr. JENNER. A woman never picks up a package in the presence of your
husband?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right, he always does it. So anyway, we brought Lee
up to the apartment, and he was so happy about the place. He thought it
was a most beautiful place, and we thought it was nice too, but after
they got everything out of the car, we just left.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see them taking things out of the car and bringing
them into the apartment?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; but we didn't help them.
Mr. JENNER. Was your husband helping to unload the car?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; he was taking the things out himself.
Mr. JENNER. You saw him doing that?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; they had a lot of locker space in that apartment,
and Lee was putting everything in this one big locker, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Did your husband have any luggage?
Mrs. MURRET. Luggage?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think he had some suitcases.
Mr. JENNER. He had some suitcases?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they looked like Marina's suitcase, for one, because
he didn't come into my house with any suitcase. Like I said, he just
had that little bag with him. In fact, he only had maybe two pairs of
socks and two T-shirts, and two pairs of pants, and nothing else.
Mr. JENNER. But you did see a suitcase or more than one suitcase in the
garage; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. I think I did. I think he did have a suitcase in the
garage, and maybe two; yes, sir. I seem to remember those.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a ready recollection of that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I do. I think, if I remember right, that I saw two
suitcases there, and that they were very nice suitcases.
Mr. JENNER. Of ordinary size, would you say?
Mrs. MURRET. I think they were of ordinary size; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Regular suitcases with the handle in the center?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say they were straight sided and oblong rather
than square?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; just ordinary regular clothing suitcases.
Mr. JENNER. About 28 inches long?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you didn't see any long package?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. By long, I mean something in the neighborhood of 45 inches
long, or something like that.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything like that. The only reason I
noticed these suitcases was because my washing machine was in the
garage, and I had to go out there to wash, to do my washing, and those
suitcases were standing up, sitting right next to one another, and
there were boxes, a bunch of stuff.
Mr. JENNER. There were two suitcases, as far as you know?
Mrs. MURRET. As far as I know; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Could there have been three?
Mrs. MURRET. There could have been. There could have been four; I don't
know.
Mr. JENNER. But your immediate recollection is that there were two?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. There were at least two suitcases.
Mr. JENNER. But you didn't notice any wrapped package, any brown
butcher paper, or regular delicatessen store paper?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything like that. Like I said, though,
when they put his things in the car, I was inside the house.
Mr. JENNER. Did your boy do any hunting?
Mrs. MURRET. My boys?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, the boy that's in the seminary, he did a little
duck-hunting occasionally, but that's about all.
Mr. JENNER. Did your boys ever have shotguns or rifles around your
house?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, they had a small rifle in my locker.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what that rifle looked like?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; just an ordinary rifle. It wasn't an expensive rifle.
It could have been just a plain shotgun, I guess. In fact, I think,
if I can remember back, I think Gene, when he was duck hunting once,
almost shot his hand off.
Mr. JENNER. But you don't remember seeing any package, any oblong
package, out in the garage among those things that Lee had brought in
there?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Would you have any conception of what a rifle would look
like when it is disassembled, what the barrel separated from the stock
looked like, and so forth?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I'm afraid I don't know anything about rifles.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, we are on the 11th of September, and Marina
and Mrs. Paine have arrived at your home. Now, will you tell me about
that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, they arrived that afternoon. We brought Lee to the
apartment that morning, and Lee stayed at the apartment and came back
later during the day, and I said to Lee, "Well, suppose we go out and
buy some eggs and have your refrigerator stocked," and he had said "Oh,
don't worry about that; I will get all of that. I will have all of that
in." In other words, you couldn't help him, so then he came over to the
house, and I planned on having a lunch for Marina and Mrs. Paine, and
they came on in with the baby, so there was Mrs. Paine with her two
children, Mr. Murret, and I guess Marilyn was in the back getting ready
to go out.
Mr. JENNER. Marilyn is your daughter?
Mrs. MURRET. Marilyn is my daughter; yes.
Mr. JENNER. She is a young lady who was here this morning with you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, she was getting ready to go out. She had an
appointment with someone, so they came in and when I saw the baby, I
forgot who else was there. I said, "Well, she's darling," you know, and
the baby began to cry and it cried and cried, and Marina took it to the
kitchen and took care of her, and I think John was there.
Mr. JENNER. You mean your son John?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think he was there.
Mr. JENNER. Had Lee arrived in the meantime?
Mrs. MURRET. Lee had arrived; oh, yes, he was there. So finally Lee
said, "Well, let's go over to the apartment," and so they all got ready
to leave, and Mr. Murret said he would lead the way because they didn't
know the way. He said, "I will lead the way to this place," so that's
the way they went over there. Mr. Murret, my husband, took Lee with
him, I think that's right, and Mrs. Paine drove the others over in her
car.
Mr. JENNER. From the time that Mrs. Paine drove off from your home, did
you see Mrs. Paine any more?
Mrs. MURRET. No, sir; I never saw Mrs. Paine any more.
Mr. JENNER. How soon after that did you see Lee and Marina and the baby?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, you see, I don't drive myself, and I wanted them to
come over, but they didn't have a car and they didn't want my husband
to go and get them, so it was 2 weeks before I saw them again. But one
Saturday morning about 2 weeks after they moved over there, Lee came
over with Marina and the baby, which is a very long way they had to
come by streetcar and bus, and it must have taken them a long time,
because they were living up on Magazine Street, and that's a pretty
long way out to my house. From Canal Street up to the 4900 block of
Magazine Street, that's 49 blocks, and then from my house to Canal it
must be 50 blocks.
Mr. JENNER. You mean it was 99 blocks distance from your house to their
house?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, they made this trip by streetcar and bus, and we
didn't even know they were coming, and they had the baby stroller and
everything that belonged to the baby with them.
Mr. JENNER. This is Lee and Marina, now?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That was 2 weeks later that they came out to your house?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and the baby. I was trying to make friends with the
baby and the baby was crying. It looked like the poor child never saw
anyone before in her life.
Mr. JENNER. You had this feeling, did you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You have reared some fine children, and you have
grandchildren?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you have a knack with babies and children?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you seemed to have trouble with Lee's baby, with this
baby?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; naturally she had never seen me before, and she
didn't speak the English language. Marina made her understand things
in Russian, and so I took the baby outside with me to make friends
with the baby and she kept crying, and Marina kept telling her to look
at me, and after a while she made friends, you know, and so then Lee
decided that they would go out.
I had a baby bed in the house which I have for all my children, and my
daughter still uses the baby bed, so anyway, Marina and Lee wanted to
go to the lakeside which isn't too far from my home.
Mr. JENNER. What is the lakeside?
Mrs. MURRET. Pontchartrain Lake. I guess that would be about 12 blocks
from where I live.
Mr. JENNER. About a mile-and-a-half?
Mrs. MURRET. About that. They decided to go crabbing, and so they got
a net and some crab bait, and the baby meantime went to sleep, so Lee
left the baby with me in the crib, and they went out to the lake.
Mr. JENNER. How did they get out there?
Mrs. MURRET. Marilyn drove them.
Mr. JENNER. Your daughter Marilyn?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she drove them out to the lake.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee know how to drive a car?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he did. I never saw him drive a car.
Mr. JENNER. You have never seen Lee behind the wheel of a car,
operating an automobile?
Mrs. MURRET. Never.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear that he did know how to drive an
automobile, though?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think he did, because when they went to New
York, when he went with his mother, she drove, she always drove. I
never knew him to drive.
Mr. JENNER. So anyway, Marilyn took them out to Pontchartrain Beach,
and they went crabbing; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right; and they didn't get any crabs, so on the way
back Marina was fussing at Lee in Russian, and Marilyn must have said,
"Well, what is she saying?" you know, so Lee said, "Oh, she's just like
a woman; she's no different. They are no different whether they come
from Russia or France or some place in Louisiana. They are all alike.
They don't appreciate what you do for them." Marina was telling him
that it was so stupid for them to be taking these crab nets, spending
$1, I guess it was, for everything, when he could have gone to the
French Market and bought a dozen crabs for $1.25 or $1.50. She didn't
see any sense in spending money and going out and not catching any
crabs when you could go and buy them at the French Market. She missed
the point where the boy liked to do that for pleasure. She thought it
was a bum idea. She told Lee it would be better to just go and buy some
crabs and not go through all that trouble, but anyway they came back
home, and they stayed until about 10 o'clock. They ate supper, and so
forth, and the baby got a little friendlier. They played ball with the
baby, and she came around a little bit, and I think Mr. Murret drove
them home, and that was it.
When they left, we told them that at anytime when they wanted to come
over again to let us know, and Mr. Murret would be glad to come and get
them, but Lee said, "No, we don't mind coming on the bus," but then I
don't think they came around for a while after that. In the meantime he
must have lost his job at the Reily Coffee Co.
Mr. JENNER. How did you learn that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he told me.
Mr. JENNER. How did he come to tell you that?
Mrs. MURRET. He called me and again he said they just didn't need
another person on the job, that they had too many. That seemed to be
the only excuse he gave for losing a job.
Mr. JENNER. That was what he told you?
Mrs. MURRET. Why he had lost his position?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. That's why he said he lost it in Texas. He asked
me if he could use my telephone number, because he would be out
looking for a job, and if anybody would call, then he could call every
afternoon to find out if anyone called, and I could give him the
message, so he had his name in at the Louisiana Employment Service.
Mr. JENNER. The Louisiana Employment Service?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that State?
Mrs. MURRET. State employment, yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right; go ahead.
Mrs. MURRET. During that time he was getting State employment from
Texas, from that job, when he first got here, because he got one of
those checks when he was at my house, and then he was collecting State
employment while he was off of this job here, when he got out of work,
so he was probably collecting both checks at the same time. I don't
think he ever found a job even though he supposedly was trying, after
that one, I mean. He said he was looking for a darkroom.
Mr. JENNER. A what?
Mrs. MURRET. A photographer's job, or something like that, so he went
down to a place in Metairie, but he had to drive a truck for that job,
and he told me he couldn't take the job because he didn't know how to
drive.
Mr. JENNER. He did tell you that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mrs. MURRET. That was when he was out looking for a job.
Mr. JENNER. He told you he couldn't drive then?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he said he couldn't take that job because he would
have to drive a truck.
Mr. JENNER. That would have been in the summer of 1963 now; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; while he was here. I don't think he ever found
any other job after that here.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know how long he stayed on this job at the coffee
plant?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't. There's something else. Before he got this
job at the coffee plant, I think he had Mr. Murret loan him $30, or
maybe $40, to pay part of his house rent, but after he got that job at
the coffee plant, he paid that back to Mr. Murret. I told him, "If you
need anything, Lee, ask for it," because sometimes I felt guilty. I
thought maybe when people like that need something, we should go ahead
and get it for them, but then I told myself, "Well, no, since he is the
type of person who is so independent," so I just stood back and waited
to see if he could bring himself to come to me for something, because
it was apparent that they needed a lot of things, him and Marina, but
he never did, except for that loan he made from my husband to pay part
of the house rent and the time he asked if we could put him up for a
week while he looked for a job, but otherwise it seemed like he didn't
want anybody to do anything for him. I did ask him several times if
there was anything we could do for them, or get for them, and he would
said, "No; we have everything," and then one time I offered him a
spread, and he said, "No; we have everything," and the funny thing was
that when they came that Saturday, he said to me, he said, "Marina says
we will take that spread now; we don't have a spread," so Marina must
have bawled him out for not taking the spread in the first place. I
mean, she must have thought he ought to have accepted it. So they went
home with the spread after all.
Mr. JENNER. This was when they first came?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. So then he would call in to find out if anybody had
called from the employment agency. He had his names in at a private
agency, besides the State employment, and he did get several calls and
I gave him the message. One time I remember the man left his name, but
I wouldn't remember that now.
Mr. JENNER. Might your husband remember that?
Mrs. MURRET. No. My husband was never around when all this was going
on. My husband couldn't tell you anything, so then I went away. I went
to Texas for 2 weeks. I left on July 1 and I returned on July 14.
Mr. JENNER. To visit your son?
Mrs. MURRET. No; my daughter, in Beaumont--Joyce. That was on July 1.
Mr. JENNER. Had Lee lost his job by that time?
Mrs. MURRET. He must have. I didn't know it, but he must have in
between that time.
Mr. JENNER. While you were away, he lost his job?
Mrs. MURRET. It could have been in between that time; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you about losing his job, that you
recall?
Mrs. MURRET. No; it was a long time after that that he said anything to
me about that.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't say anything to you for quite a while?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he didn't say anything to me about losing his job for
a long time, so then Joyce came back. She had two adopted children.
Mr. JENNER. Joyce is your daughter, who lived in Beaumont?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. You see, Joyce can't have any children, so she
adopted two children. One is 4 and one is 5, but she got them when they
were a month old, and they really are adorable. Now, Joyce, hadn't
seen Lee before, you see, or anything, and so then Lee and Marina came
over one day while Joyce was at the house with the children. They had
come at about 9 o'clock that morning, and stayed till 9 or 10 o'clock
that night. I was exhausted trying to entertain Marina, you know, and
not knowing how to speak Russian, or make any signs that she would
understand, and so forth, but she liked the dinner, and she wanted
to know how to cook some of the things that I had, and Lee wrote the
recipes down on paper for her, and I asked them how she could tell to
pick out cans when she went to the store if she couldn't read English,
and Lee said she could tell by the pictures on the cans what she wants,
but I don't think Lee liked too much variety in food, just certain
things.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to her at any time, or to Lee, about
the fact that she wasn't speaking more English than she evidenced?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I asked Lee about that. I said, "Lee, how does Marina
like America?" and he said to me, "Well, you can ask Marina yourself,"
so I said to Marina, "How do you like America?" and she said, "Oh, I
like America!" She said, "I like it; I like it!" Now, we always did
think it strange that Lee didn't seem to care whether Marina learned
to speak English or not. He was always talking to her in Russian, and
we didn't know what was going on, you see. I asked him, "Why don't
you teach Marina more English?" but he didn't pick it up, so then--in
August, I think it was, I was operated on for my ear, and during that
time Joyce was home. They had been at the house before the operation.
They knew I was going to be operated on, and he came up there to see
me, which I thought was very nice.
Mr. JENNER. You mean Lee?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I was at that time at the eye, ear, nose, and
throat hospital, and he said, "How are you feeling?" and I said, "All
right." He stayed just a couple of minutes really, and he seemed to
be nervous--like, you know--and I thanked him for coming, and then he
went off, so that night Joyce came back to the hospital again. That
was a Thursday, I think, and I got out on a Saturday--that following
Saturday, so Mr. Murret was not there for my operation. He wanted
to stay, but he was supposed to go to a retreat at Manresa, and he
missed last year, because he couldn't get off from work, so I said,
"Well, don't miss it this year, because this isn't serious, and there
are no after effects." I said, "Go on to the retreat, and it will be
all right," so he went, and John, my son, was in town, and he came up,
and of course Joyce couldn't do too much, because she had two children
of her own to take care of, but anyway I had the operation, and Joyce
was to come up and get me on Saturday at about 11 o'clock, so then Lee
called, and this was before Joyce left home to come up to the hospital,
and he told Joyce that he was over at the Parish jail, or something,
the one on Rampart over there, and he told her he wanted her to bring
some money up and get him out, and she said, "Mother, I don't want to."
She said she had been there twice with the money in her hand, and each
time she came back out again. She told me, "I don't know what to do." I
said, "Well, Joyce, I don't know what he's in there for; do you know?"
and she told me that she had talked to this officer up there, and she
asked him, "What's that kid in there for, before I bail him out?" She
was going to give the money to this officer to get Lee out, but the man
told her not to be foolish and give her money up like that, because
she might not get it back. She said he told her, "Don't give up your
cash because you may never get it back." He said, "Have somebody parole
him." So Joyce didn't know what to do. She had been out of New Orleans
a long time, so she didn't know what to do. This officer showed her
the sign that they said Lee was carrying, and on it it had, "Viva El
Castro," so when Joyce saw that, she said, "Oh, my God," she said, "I
am not about to get him out of here if he's like that," so she didn't
know what to do, but she didn't give up her money. She said, "Here he
was supposed to be out looking for a job, and he was doing things like
that, walking up and down Canal Street all day long with signs and
everything."
This officer told her that he had told Lee, "If you want to carry
these 'Fair Play for Cuba' signs around, you are going to have to rent
yourself a hall, and have your meetings in the hall," and he said, "But
you can't carry signs like that in the business district."
The officer said that what he was doing wasn't so bad, but Joyce
thought it was terrible, you see, so Joyce came on out to the hospital.
She didn't get him out of jail. She didn't give up her money. So when
we got back home, it wasn't long until he called on the phone again,
and the first thing he did was get kind of rude with Joyce. He wanted
to know how come she hadn't gotten him out yet, and didn't she have the
money, and she said, "No, I don't have any money." She said that she
had just gotten her mother out of the hospital and used up the money,
and she told him, "I don't have any money to get you out of there."
Also, Joyce had found out that he had been in there since Friday. You
see, Joyce was under the impression that he had just gotten in jail,
so Joyce asked him, "How long have you been in here?" and he said, "I
don't know how long I have been in here," and Joyce said, "I know; you
have been in here all night," and he said, "Well, just come and get
me out," and Joyce said, "Well, I don't know; I'll have to think this
thing over," and then she said, "I don't have any money," and then he
said, "Well, I'll tell you what you do." He said, "I want you to go
out to the apartment and see Marina, because Marina has $70.00 and
you tell Marina to get that money and come and get me out," and Joyce
said, "Well, I have to get mother into bed, and I have no one to keep
my two children while I run up there," and he said, "Well, ask one of
the neighbors to mind the children," so in the meantime Joyce told me
what he had said, and I told her, "Well, I don't know. I don't like
to exactly ask for favors from the neighbors like that," so she said
she didn't know what to do, so we talked about it awhile, and then we
decided to call this man that we knew, and we called him, and he told
us what had happened, that Lee had had a fight with some Cubans, and
everything, and we were still wondering what to do about Lee being in
jail and everything when, a little while after that, he called back and
said that everything was all right, that Lee was out.
Now, we didn't see Lee though. I guess he went on home. Then Mr. Murret
came back from Manresa on Sunday evening, or Sunday night I believe
it was, and when we told him about it, he was horrified, you know. He
went right out to their apartment to talk to Lee, and he asked Lee
in a fatherly way, what was he doing, you know, who he was connected
with, and so forth, and whether he was with any Commie group, and Lee
said no, he wasn't, and Mr. Murret told him, he said, "You be sure you
show up at that courthouse for the trial," and Lee said, "Don't worry,
I'll show up," and he told Lee, he said, "You ought to get out and find
yourself a job." "You have a wife and child and one coming," and so
forth, and then we didn't see Lee any more until Labor Day, I believe
it was.
Lee called up that morning, and he said he and Marina wanted to come
over that day and spend the day, and I said, not right away, but
suppose they come over around 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, because
I think I was busy that morning, or something, so they did. They came
on the bus, and Mr. Murret happened to be passing by, and he picked
them up and brought them to the house, and I asked them if they had
had dinner, and they said yes, but I don't think they had. I told them
I would go up to the store and get some rolls, and we could have some
coffee and rolls, so I did, and I made coffee, and we sat down and ate
the rolls, and to tell you the truth, I don't think they had eaten
anything, because they ate up all the rolls.
I made hamburgers too that night, and they each ate two hamburgers.
John was there too. After they finished eating, it was time to take
them home, and John brought them home.
Mr. JENNER. In his car?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I might say too that Mr. Murret talked to Lee quite
a bit about him not trying to teach Marina how to speak the English
language. He said, "Lee, we love Marina very much, but we feel very bad
that we can't converse with Marina, because you speak to her all the
time in Russian, and we don't know what is going on and she doesn't
know what is going on with us. Don't you think you should teach her the
English language?" and Lee said, "No." Then he said, "I'll tell you
right now, I will never teach it to her," and then he said, "I don't
care if she wants to learn, but she is not going to learn from me."
He said, "I am not going to teach her, because I don't want to lose
my Russian," but he said he didn't object to her learning the English
language, but at the same time he kept on talking in Russian to her.
I asked him, "Why do you want to keep up your Russian, Lee; do
you intend to go back to Russia?" but something happened right
then--somebody did something or other, and he never did answer that
question, so that was all of that. So we brought them home. John
brought them home in his car, but before he took them home, he drove
them out and showed them the church that he was going to be married
in, and he also took them up on Palmer Avenue and showed them the home
where he was going to have the reception with his girl friend, at her
house. It's a large home on Palmer Avenue, so he took them and showed
them all of that, and then he took them home, and we didn't see them
any more.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you saw either one of them?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with them by letter, telephone,
postcard, or otherwise?
Mrs. MURRET. No, nothing. Then the next day or the day following that,
two men came to the house from the FBI.
Mr. JENNER. That was Labor Day, was it?
Mrs. MURRET. No. Labor Day was the last day I saw them. This was a few
days after Labor Day, I think.
Mr. JENNER. After Labor Day?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. They came to the house and knocked at the door, and
I went to the door, and they didn't tell me who they were at first,
but they approached me, and asked me, "Does a young couple live here?"
and I said, "No; no young couple lives here, nor did any young couple
ever live here," and then they asked me, "Do you know Lee Oswald?" and
I said, "Yes, I do; he's my nephew," and he said, "Well, do you know
where he lives?" and I said, "Well, yes, he lives in the 4900 block of
Magazine Street. I don't know the number, but it's in the 4900 block,"
and then they told me who they were.
Mr. JENNER. That's when they told you they were FBI agents?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. Then the next day they came back, and they told me
that a lady, a neighbor, or whoever they heard it from, said that a
lady with a station wagon was there. I said, "Well, probably that's the
same lady who brought Marina here from Texas, and took them back to
Texas."
Mr. JENNER. This was the 20th of September, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, I think so, and that's the last I knew of them.
I never heard anything else about them, but now, I skipped over
something--in between that time he called one time, and he said Mrs.
Paine was going up to see her relatives, I think, and that she was
going to pass through New Orleans and visit with them, but he didn't
say that they were leaving with her and going back to Texas, or
anything like that. He just said Mrs. Paine was going to come through
here and visit with them. He also said that Mrs. Paine knew a Tulane
professor.
Mr. JENNER. A Tulane professor?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; a Tulane professor. He could have been a
language professor, I imagine, because I remember him saying that he
had a daughter that was attending the university in Moscow, and they
either went to his home or they came over to Lee's house. That I didn't
get straight, and he showed slides, and so forth, on Russia, the way I
understand it.
Mr. JENNER. Who showed the slides?
Mrs. MURRET. The professor, but I think Mrs. Paine was the one who knew
the professor and all that.
Mr. JENNER. You say his daughter is in school in Moscow?
Mrs. MURRET. He is supposed to have a daughter in the university over
there, yes, sir; or he did have. That was my understanding.
Mr. JENNER. In Moscow?
Mrs. MURRET. I think he said Moscow, but that's the last I heard from
Lee Oswald and Marina.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me one thing you left out?
Mrs. MURRET. What's that?
Mr. JENNER. The trip over to Mobile.
Mrs. MURRET. Oh. Well, that came in--I don't remember the date.
Mr. JENNER. Was it sometime in July or August of 1963, somewhere around
there?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, Lee wasn't working about that time, and my son
Gene was over in Mobile, and he hadn't seen Lee for a long time, and
he had asked if we could bring Lee over so he could see him. Gene had
graduated from Loyola and had went into the Service. He was in there
for about 3 years, and when they were activated, they went into Germany
and everything, and when he came back he entered law school and went to
law school.
Mr. JENNER. At Loyola?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, for 3 years, and then he decided to become a Jesuit.
Mr. JENNER. A Jesuit priest?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. So he was over at Mobile by then, and naturally when
I wrote to him I told him about Lee, and he said he would like very
much to see Lee, and that he would like for Lee to come up there and
bring Marina up and visit him, so we arranged to take Marina and Lee up
to Mobile. We left on a Saturday around noon, and I believe Joyce was
with us, and also her two children.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you gone on that trip?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, we came back that Sunday afternoon, or, we left
there about 2 o'clock, I think it was.
Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion in advance about Lee giving a
lecture or anything to the boys there at that school?
Mrs. MURRET. Not that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. What's the name of that school, Mrs. Murret?
Mrs. MURRET. What school is that?
Mr. JENNER. At Mobile?
Mrs. MURRET. Where Gene was?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. The Jesuit House of Study.
Mr. JENNER. The Jesuit House of Study at Mobile, Ala.?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, Mobile. So Gene asked us to bring Lee and Marina
over, and, you see, they allow a speaker over there at that school so
many times a year, and he said maybe Lee could speak on his experiences
in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Then there was a discussion in advance of Lee's going over
there about his speaking, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Only that he might speak about his experiences in Russia
is all. There wasn't anything else arranged that I know of, I don't
think.
Mr. JENNER. Was this in a conversation between you and your son?
Mrs. MURRET. No, by letter that was.
Mr. JENNER. By letter?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. We never would get to see Gene, you see, unless we
would go over there. He wasn't supposed to call us on the phone or
anything like that. But they do allow you to visit every so often.
Mr. JENNER. Is he allowed to call you by telephone if it's important
and he gets permission?
Mrs. MURRET. No, he's not supposed to use the phone to call home.
Mr. JENNER. But he may write you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and then we visit so many times a year--I mean, we go
up there, but that's all. Now, we call him, like on holidays and things
like that. We are allowed to do that.
Mr. JENNER. But he can't call you?
Mrs. MURRET. No, he can't call us.
Mr. JENNER. Why is that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, they just don't like it.
Mr. JENNER. Do they like you to call up there? In other words, do they
mind if you call him?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think they like it, but, like I said, on holidays
or something we can do it.
Mr. JENNER. Was that one of the rules of the school authorities over
there?
Mrs. MURRET. I guess so, because otherwise Gene would call us.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me about your trip over there. Just
what happened?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, when I saw Lee coming out of the house to get in
the car, it was a hot day, and he had this flannel shirt on, and
I said, "Oh, Lee, let me give you another shirt that won't be so
uncomfortable," but he wouldn't accept another shirt. He kept the
flannel shirt on, and that's the way he went over there. He didn't
want me to get him another shirt. He just wouldn't accept favors from
anybody. He was so independent. Well, anyway, we got over there, and
that night we were going to meet.
Mr. JENNER. That's you and your husband?
Mrs. MURRET. And Joyce.
Mr. JENNER. Joyce, your daughter?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And her two children?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee and Marina, and their child June?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and Ron and Jill.
Mr. JENNER. And Ron and Jill?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, they are Joyce's children, and Mr. Murret paid all
the expenses, including the motel rooms and the meals, and so forth.
Now, when Lee and Marina came out from freshening up, they looked real
nice. I was really surprised, especially at Marina. She had got herself
all dressed up, and she looked like a different person, and he was very
attentive too to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Always?
Mrs. MURRET. Always. Now, what he did at home--how he acted around
her there, I don't know, but when he was in my presence he was very
attentive to her and very well mannered. He would, I mean, open the car
door for her, and so forth--very attentive. He would pull the chair out
for her and things like that. He was very well mannered. I have to say
that for him.
Mr. JENNER. What was her attitude toward him?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she seemed the same way. They seemed to get along
very nicely together, I thought, when they were here in New Orleans.
They would take a ride out the French Market and buy some crabs and
some shrimp and come home and boil and cook them. They got a big bang
out of doing things like that.
Now, Marina was pregnant about that time, and we asked them if we
could do anything for her in the way of getting some sort of treatment
before the birth of the baby, but Marina didn't want any treatment. She
said she didn't need any, and it seemed like Lee must have had her at
Charity Hospital, I think at least one time, because he said they told
him that when she was ready to have the child, to just come right on in.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of a rifle at any time in your
presence?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion about anything like that by anybody?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see a rifle around in the garage where this
stuff was stored?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see a package out there that looked like it
might contain a rifle?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did see one around there.
Mr. JENNER. You never saw anything that looked like a rifle or shotgun
at all among his belongings that he had put in the garage in the corner?
Mrs. MURRET. No; but I didn't really pay too much attention to all that
stuff. The only thing I remember him ever taking out of there was these
boots and this hat.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attend this lecture that Lee gave over in Mobile?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no; women couldn't attend.
Mr. JENNER. Was that on a Saturday night?
Mrs. MURRET. It was on a Saturday night; yes, sir, because we came back
the next afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. It was just for the boys from the House of Study, is that
your understanding?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. No women were allowed, and during that time
they had one of the boys there that spoke Russian, and he never got
a chance to talk with the other boys in Russian, of course, so Gene
told him that Marina was outside that night, so he came out, and he
spoke with Marina in Russian, and so he and Marina had a very nice
conversation about different things, and we walked up to the chapel,
and he showed Marina the chapel, and so forth, and I don't know what
he was saying to her, because they were both talking in Russian. So I
don't know what all they were talking about. So then after they talked
for a while, he left. Now, after the talk Lee gave at the meeting, I
asked Gene, "Well, how was it?" and he said, "Well, it was all right."
Previous to that time, I had said to Lee--I knew that Lee was going to
talk about being in Russia, so I said to Lee, "Maybe you had better map
out some thoughts for your talk, just what you might be going to say,
so you won't be too nervous," and he said, "Oh, don't worry about me; I
give talks all the time."
Mr. JENNER. He said he gave talks all the time?
Mrs. MURRET. That's what he said. He said, "I'm used to that." He said,
"I give talks all the time." I asked Marina later on one day if she
would like to attend mass the next morning with me, and she said yes,
she would, and she asked Lee about it, so they were talking it over in
Russian, so I don't know what they were saying.
Mr. JENNER. Did she go with you to mass the next morning?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she did.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say she liked it, or what did she say?