Mr. JENNER. Well, she was living in Fort Worth before going to New
York, I believe. Do you think that would have been in the summer of
1952?
Mrs. MURRET. I can't recollect that. Maybe if you give me a lead, I
might remember.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name of Ewing Street in Fort Worth, Tex., familiar
to you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't know that one.
Mr. JENNER. Does Eighth Avenue refresh your recollection any as to an
address where they lived in Fort Worth?
Mrs. MURRET. I never heard from her at that address, unless that was
the house that she bought, and she was having trouble with the party
that bought it.
Mr. JENNER. You mean she was having trouble with the purchaser?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he was supposed to pay rent to her. You see, she
always wanted to do everything herself, and he wasn't paying her the
rent, and I don't think they was paying the other, and they lost out on
the deal.
Mr. JENNER. She reported that to you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told me about that. Now, I don't know if that's
the same place, the same house or not, but that was one house that she
spoke about.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name Mrs. Beverly Richardson familiar to you?
Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of her.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Llewellyn Merritt?
Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of her.
Mr. JENNER. Patricia Aarons?
Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of her.
Mr. JENNER. Herman Conway?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Thomas W. Turner?
Mrs. MURRET. I never heard of him.
Mr. JENNER. While Mr. Ekdahl was living with her, of course, he was
supporting the family, but after he left, then that was left up to her;
is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. What?
Mr. JENNER. She had to support the family when Mr. Ekdahl left; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. She got some assistance from her sons, did she?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think Robert was working at a supermarket, and she
had to make him give her his salary, and I don't know whether John was
in the Coast Guard at the time or not. I don't think he contributed
anything--John, but I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that about that time she was
becoming increasingly despondent with life?
Mrs. MURRET. I wouldn't say that. She seemed to be a person, or rather,
she was a person who adjusted very easily to situations.
Mr. JENNER. She adjusted easily?
Mrs. MURRET. She knew she had to do something about these things; that
she had to get out and work, and so forth, to buy these boys things
that they needed and to keep them going. Of course, I guess it was
hard, naturally. It's hard for any woman, you know, to try to support
three boys, and I don't think they ever appreciate what you do for them.
Mr. JENNER. What makes you say that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she told me that the boys weren't helping out, I
mean, John. Now, I don't know if John was married right about then or
not, but I don't think he was helping out at home at all. If it had
been my son, I know he would have stayed with me. He wouldn't have run
out. Of course, maybe John had a family and maybe he couldn't help, I
don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Did she talk to you about that, or seem despondent because
her children didn't help her?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told me about it. Now, after Robert got married,
she stayed with Robert for a while, but I think there was a little
friction between her and his wife, or something. I don't know about
that, except what she told me. Of course, there are always two sides
to every story. I don't know. You can only repeat what one party tells
you. In a way, I don't think those children showed the proper respect
for their mother, and I don't think that's right regardless of the hard
time she was having raising them, because I guess she was a little
demanding on them at times, and I think children should have the proper
respect for their parents. I know no matter what my children did, I
would still love them. Mr. Murret is a good family man too, and there's
nothing he wouldn't do for his children, and I have heard him tell them
that no matter what happens don't you ever talk about anybody's mother,
and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. Was it during this period before she moved to New York that
she told you she had, as you put it, trained Lee to stay in the house?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know exactly when you would say that was,
but I think that's one reason why I know that Lee was so quiet; he was
so much by himself, without playing with other children. She did tell
me that she told Robert to come right home from school and things like
that, because she thought it would be safer than being outside playing,
but I don't know exactly when it was she was telling me that. I think
that was while they were living over in Fort Worth, but anyway, she
was having a hard time of it over there, and she either wrote me or
called me--I don't remember which, but anyway, I told her that I would
help her out, to send Lee down here for a while, and she sent Lee by
train over here, and the train was about 2 hours late.
Mr. JENNER. Where did he come from at that time, from Texas?
Mrs. MURRET. From Texas; yes, sir, and I asked him, I said, "Lee
did you meet anyone on the train? Did you talk to anybody?" And he
said, "No, I didn't talk to anybody. My mother told me not to talk to
anybody." Of course, that's a good thing sometimes, not to talk to
strangers, but I guess that was one of the reasons he was so much by
himself. Anyway, he stayed with us for a while.
Mr. JENNER. For how long?
Mrs. MURRET. About 2 weeks, 3 weeks, maybe more, until she got on her
feet, and we took Lee out to ball games and bought him things, and we
tried to make him happy, but it seemed like he just didn't want to get
out of the house. I mean, he wouldn't go out and play. He would just
rather stay in the house and read or something.
Mr. JENNER. He wouldn't want to go out and play with the other children?
Mrs. MURRET. No, he wouldn't. We didn't have a television. Even though
I had a husband, my sister always seemed to have more than I had. She
was working, and somehow she had an automobile and a television and
things that I didn't have. It was years after television had come out
before we had one. We did have a radio, and Lee would take it in the
back room and listen to the radio and read. He would read funnybooks
and I would try to get him to go outside and play with the other
children, but he wouldn't go out, so finally I just made him get out,
so he did for a day or so, but then he came right back in and would go
right back to reading and listening to the radio, and I practically
pushed him out again, because I didn't think it was healthy for him to
stay in the house all the time, just to stay in that room by himself,
but finally I decided that that was what he wanted, that that was his
way of life, what he wanted to do, and there wasn't much I could do
about it.
We took him out after that, but he didn't seem to enjoy himself, so
finally I told her to come and get him, that we didn't like for him to
be there any more, because we had tried to do all we could for him.
Now, maybe she thought we didn't like him, but that wasn't it. It
was just that he wouldn't go out and play, and he wanted to be alone
in that room all the time, and he wouldn't even talk to the other
children, and he was obviously very unhappy, but anyway she came down
and got him. In fact, he told her to come and get him.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?
Mrs. MURRET. Because I saw the letter.
Mr. JENNER. He wrote a letter to her asking her to come and get him?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I wasn't supposed to see the letter, but I did.
Mr. JENNER. You saw the letter before it was mailed?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And he expressed in that letter some discomfort in being at
your home, did he?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he was under the impression that you didn't like him?
Mrs. MURRET. I guess so, because he wrote and told her that nobody
around there liked him, and here everyone was knocking themselves out
for him.
Mr. JENNER. Where was your sister living at that time, in Fort Worth?
Mrs. MURRET. I think so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. On the occasion that she came from New York and stopped off
in New Orleans, did she stay with you for a few days?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she stayed with me until she found an apartment.
Mr. JENNER. That was in your home at 757 French Street?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; and that address was changed to 809 French
Street.
Mr. JENNER. How was that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, it was the same house, but they changed the
numbering of that block, but it was the same residence. They changed it
to the 700 block.
Mr. JENNER. And how long did she stay with you on that occasion?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, that must have been 2 weeks, 3 weeks. She was
looking for a place to stay, and Robert was coming out of the service,
and so that's when she found this place over on Exchange Alley before
Robert came in, and she met Robert at my house, and they went right
over to the apartment at Exchange Alley that she had found, but Robert
left. He wouldn't stay in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. How many days were you looking for an apartment for her?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, I would say about a week.
Mr. JENNER. Until she found this place on Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. What was Lee doing during that time?
Mrs. MURRET. He was going to school.
Mr. JENNER. When they came back from New York and stopped at your home
and lived with you temporarily, did he go to school?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he did. That's when she enrolled him at Beauregard
Junior High.
Mr. JENNER. Would that have been in January 1954?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, they left New York City, I think, either on the fifth
or the seventh of January 1954. Now, we have an address here in New
Orleans of 1464 St. Mary Street.
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, that was before the Exchange Place. She rented that
from this lady who was a friend of hers.
Mr. JENNER. Was that Myrtle Evans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Myrtle Evans. She was a friend of hers.
Mr. JENNER. I believe she also lived for a time at 1910 Prytania,
didn't she?
Mrs. MURRET. I think that's right. I'm not sure about those different
places, I mean, how she would move from one to the other, but she was
at several places up in there before she went to Exchange Place.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we appear from our records to have them living on St.
Mary Street in New Orleans in May or June of 1954, until about February
1955.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know anything about that. I know Myrtle
Evans was managing that apartment where she lived.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know how it was that she went to live at 126
Exchange Place in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that 1954 or 1955?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know--whatever you have down there probably is the
right year, but they lived at Myrtle's house first.
Mr. JENNER. Could it have been that Myrtle Evans lived, in the spring
of 1954, at 1454 St. Mary Street?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know. Maybe that's right. I know this was a
very old house where she lived. I was told that she had a family
home--Myrtle--and that she had renovated it into a lot of apartments
for tenants.
Mr. JENNER. How long did they stay at your house?
Mrs. MURRET. At my house?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, like I said, 2 weeks or 3 weeks at the most,
somewhere in there.
Mr. JENNER. And you are pretty sure that they moved directly from your
house into this place on Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, either there or to Myrtle's apartment. I don't know
which, to be truthful with you.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me about Lee Harvey Oswald during the couple of
weeks that he spent at your house. Did you notice any change in him
from the time you had known him previously? He would now have been
about 3 years older; isn't that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; like I said, they had just come from New York,
and she had told me about him not wanting to go to school, but she
enrolled him over at Beauregard School, which wasn't too far from my
home. It's a school on Canal Street, and it's just a few blocks after
you get off of the bus from Lakeview, so she enrolled him there, and
she gave him my address for the school, and I think, or I'm quite sure,
that while he was there he was having trouble with some of the boys at
the school.
Mr. JENNER. Now, will you tell me about that? Just tell me what you are
referring to now with relation to that school.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I can only tell you what I was told. I don't know
anything myself that happened, but I can tell you what he told me,
or what he told her of what happened. He said they were calling him
"Yankee," and so forth, names like that, and this one time he got into
the bus and he sat in a seat in the Negro section, which he didn't
know, because he had come from New York, and he didn't know that they
sat in special seats, so he just got on the bus and sat down where he
could. The bus stopped in front of the school, and you can hardly get
a seat anyway, so he just ran to the bus and jumped on and got a seat,
like I said, in the Negro section, and the boys jumped him at the end
of the line. They jumped on him, and he took on all of them, and of
course they beat him up, and so he came home, and that was the end of
that. He didn't say anything to me about that.
Another time they were coming out of school at 3 o'clock, and there
were boys in back of him and one of them called his name, and he said,
"Lee," and when he turned around, this boy punched him in the mouth and
ran, and it ran his tooth through the lip, so she had to go over to the
school and take him to the dentist, and I paid for the dentist bill
myself, and that's all I know about that, and he was not supposed to
have started any of that at that time.
Now, at the Beauregard School at that time, they had a very low
standard, and I had no children going there and never did. My children
went to Jesuit High and Loyola University, but they did have a very bad
bunch of boys going to Beauregard and they were always having fights
and ganging up on other boys, and I guess Lee wouldn't take anything,
so he got in several scrapes like that.
Mr. JENNER. These were things that Mrs. Oswald told you; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; most of it, except when he was in my home, and I
observed the way he acted. He was a lonely boy most of the time, I
think.
Mr. JENNER. Your children were all entered in school, were they?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did they study pretty hard?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression that Lee Harvey was doing well
in school, or what was your feeling along that line?
Mrs. MURRET. I think he was doing very poor work in school most of the
time. Then he got to the point where he just didn't think he ought to
have to go to school, and that seemed to be his whole attitude, and
when I mentioned that to Marguerite, that seemed to be the beginning
of our misunderstanding. She didn't think her child could do anything
wrong, and I could see that he wasn't interested in going to school,
because I have had children of my own going to school and they always
done real well in their grades. They actually seemed to like school,
but I can't say that Lee ever showed that he liked school.
Mr. JENNER. When he came with his mother from New York, did he ever
discuss anything with you relative to his trip to New York?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he never said anything, but my sister told me about
the time they had to take him out of the apartment, when she was
working, and put him in that place, and she had to get a lawyer to get
him out.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, this boy was about 14 years of age at that
time; is that right, after they returned from New York and stayed at
your place?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and then the next I heard was when he came here, and
he didn't want to go to school because he thought he already knew all
that they had to teach him, so she must have allowed him to go to work
for Tujague's, because he had a job as a runner, going from building to
building, delivering messages and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. That was in 1955, would that be about right?
Mrs. MURRET. When he was here; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did this boy come over to visit you occasionally when they
were living in Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he did. Before he got the job with Tujague's, he
liked seafood, you see, and he used to come over from school on a
Friday afternoon to get his Friday dinner, because he knew I always
cooked seafood on Friday, so he always came on Friday, and then he
would come again on Saturday morning and I would give him money to
rent a bike at City Park, and you know, he thought that was one of the
greatest things he could do, and he was very happy riding a bike up in
City Park. My children had a bike, but it seemed like he wanted to go
up in the park rather than ride their bicycles, and sometimes I would
have to get my children back or something, and I would have to give him
more money so that he could keep his bike another hour.
Now, when he was going to Beauregard, Joyce, one of my daughters who
lives in Beaumont----
Mr. JENNER. Beaumont, Tex.?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; well, I don't think Joyce was married then. I
can't think whether she was or not, but anyway, we went to the store
and we bought Lee a lot of clothes that we thought he might need so he
would look presentable to go to school, you know, whatever a boy needs,
and when we gave them to him, he said, "Well, why are you all doing
this for me?" And we said, "Well, Lee, for one thing, we love you, and
another thing we want you to look nice when you go to school, like the
other children." So that was that.
Mr. JENNER. Did he wear this clothing to school?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; he wore the clothing that we bought him.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything else with regard to your purchasing
this clothing for him?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he never would discuss anything. He was very
independent. Like one time I remember asking him a question about
something, and he said, "I don't need anything from anybody," and
that's when I told him, I said, "Now listen, Lee, don't you get so
independent that you don't think you need anyone, because we all need
somebody at one time or other," I said, "so don't you ever get that
independent, that you should feel that you don't need anybody, because
you do need somebody, sometime you will."
Mr. JENNER. Do you think that a little of this independence might have
rubbed off from his mother, in the light of your experiences with your
sister?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she was independent herself all right. She didn't
think she needed anybody either, so I guess he sort of got that from
her, but I know that there are times when we always need somebody, and
if you don't have somebody to turn to, then you don't know what to do
sometimes. I would hate to feel that I never needed anybody.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee seem to have that propensity, that when you did
things for him, that he didn't seem to want you doing anything for him?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he seemed to be very appreciative for
anything you did for him. Now, I will say this, at the time he was
receiving something, like these clothes, he seemed to be very happy
about it, but it didn't last any time, and he never would put it in
words at least anyway. We were probably the only people that he knew as
relatives. I don't think he knew anyone else in the family.
Mr. JENNER. In the Oswald family, do you mean?
Mrs. MURRET. In the Oswald family or any other family. I mean, we were
the only ones he knew, and I got to know him pretty well since I took
care of him while she had the other two boys in this place, after she
gave birth to Lee, but along with him I had these five children of my
own to take care of, and I had a colored girl working for me. When John
was born, I had a child that was just a few months older than John
Edward, but I gave her my girl for weeks, and I was struggling along
with my five, and a baby the same age as she had, you know. I tried to
do all I could to help her.
Mr. JENNER. Would you recognize Lee's handwriting if you saw it?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't say that I would. I may. I may have expressed it
before, but I thought he had a very childish handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see his handwriting often?
Mrs. MURRET. Only at the time when he was going to Beauregard School,
with his homework.
Mr. JENNER. Without noting that you have Commission Exhibit No. 540
before you, do you recognize that handwriting?
Mrs. MURRET. Wait till I get my glasses.
Mr. JENNER. All right; take your time.
Mrs. MURRET. I couldn't say I recognized it. It looks a little like,
something like his writing, I mean, the way he would write, but I
couldn't say for sure--I couldn't swear that that was his writing.
Mr. JENNER. You couldn't swear that he wrote this?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Does it look like what you recall his handwriting was?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, if it's anything, it's even a little better than I
knew him to write, I might say. I never thought he wrote very well for
his age, and he was 14 then, you know. Of course, a lot of boys don't
write good. Girls, you will find, are better at penmanship than boys.
You ought to see my son's writing. He graduated from law school, and he
don't write good either. Now, I think he was left handed.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have caused me complications, Mrs. Murret.
Commission Exhibit 540 has a series of pages which are numbered at the
bottom, 148 through 157, both inclusive, purporting to be photostatic
copies of a diary or the memoirs of Lee Harvey Oswald, written in his
hand, and found by Irving, Tex., police and the city of Dallas police,
or at least certainly by the city of Dallas police; in his room.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, here's one that says that he was--you see, when he
stopped in that Saturday, you know, we didn't know where he was going,
but he said he was going to be stationed at Keesler Field----
Mr. JENNER. Is that Keesler Field at Biloxi?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. But someone else said that they thought that when
he came to my house on that Saturday, when he stopped there, that he
was coming from Atlanta, Ga., that day, but anyway, we took Lee to
lunch that day and then dropped him off, if I remember right, by the
customhouse up here by the river, and that's all I remember about that,
and I never saw him any more after that until he turned up in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. After he defected to Russia?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir. I told him, I said, "Lee, if you are going to be
stationed over there, you can come over weekends."
Mr. JENNER. Did he say he was going to be stationed there?
Mrs. MURRET. At Keesler Field?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he said he was going to be.
Mr. JENNER. And that is over at Biloxi, Miss.?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; but he never did come over and see us, and he
never did write. I asked him to write, but he didn't write, and I never
heard any more from him. I didn't even know that he was back from
Russia.
Mr. JENNER. And you didn't know that he had gone to Russia either; is
that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right; I didn't know he had gone over there at all.
I didn't know he went until after he went.
Mr. JENNER. How did you learn he was in Russia? Did his mother tell you
that he was in Russia?
Mrs. MURRET. That he had defected, yes. That was about the time she had
this accident, I remember, and then he got out of the Marines.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that was before he defected; right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that was before he went to Russia. He got out of
the Marines and he came to see her, and he had all that money, but he
didn't give her any of it, I don't think, but $10. I think he gave her
$10, she told me, and then he left, supposedly to come to New Orleans,
so she thought, so I didn't hear from her any more until she learned by
him from letter that he was in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. So she told you that; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. She told me; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was the fact that he had defected prominently displayed in
the New Orleans papers?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, not here so much, but in Fort Worth and so forth,
over there, they mentioned it; they made quite a to do about it.
Mr. JENNER. There was nothing in the New Orleans papers about it?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think. There might have been.
Mr. JENNER. Well, at least it didn't come to your attention?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think they had anything here about that at all,
but they did have it a lot in the Fort Worth paper.
Mr. JENNER. Did she send any of those newspaper clippings to you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; she came down here.
Mr. JENNER. To New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And she told you all about it?
Mrs. MURRET. She told me all about it, what she knew about it. She
didn't know too much about it, she said, why he did it or anything like
that, but she said that he had a right to go any place he wanted to go,
I believe.
Mr. JENNER. Did she seem to think he was living in the pattern that she
had brought him up in?
Mrs. MURRET. What's that?
Mr. JENNER. Did she seem to think that he was living in the pattern
that she had brought him up in, that is, to be independent?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, it's hard to judge that. When you only have one
person, or one child, maybe you do have a tendency to feel that way,
but who knows what's in a person's mind. I think your mind is what
really belongs to you, and I don't think anyone knows what's running
through your mind. I really believe that, so I couldn't tell you how
she felt about it, or how he felt about it, or what made him do the
things he did. I can only tell you what I think, but that doesn't mean
that I know, because I really don't. You just can't tell what's running
through a person's mind. You may think you know their mind, but you
don't, I don't think. I think he went over there because he wasn't
satisfied with the life he was living, and maybe he wanted to see how
it was over there, I guess; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversations with him about it?
Mrs. MURRET. After he came back?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. No. Oh, I spoke about it, and he might say something once
in awhile about how they lived or something, but he never did discuss
it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any talks with your sister or with him when he
was working as a delivery boy or messenger boy for Tujague's?
Mrs. MURRET. No. I didn't know anything other than he was working
there, and he was a runner, and that sort of thing, for them.
Mr. JENNER. Now, he had not yet graduated from high school; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't believe he had graduated from high school yet;
no, sir. He came out of this junior high, and like I said, I didn't
even know he went to Easton. I remember one morning he came over to
the house, and he said that he wanted to get on the ball team, but he
didn't have any shoes and he didn't have a glove, so I said, "Well,
Lee, we can fix you up," and I gave him a glove, but I don't think we
had shoes to fit him. Joyce's husband sent him a pair of shoes from
Beaumont, a pair of baseball shoes, and I told Lee, I said, "Lee, when
you need anything, just ask me for it, and if there's a way to get it
for you, we will get it." So then he got on the team, I think, but he
got off as quick as he got on. I don't know why. He never discussed
that with us as to why that was, and we never found out.
Mr. JENNER. He never discussed that with you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think he got on the team though. He never did
actually play on it, I don't think. For one thing, I don't think he was
the type of boy who was too good an athlete.
Like a lot of boys, I guess they wanted him to be one of those that
sit on the bench, and he didn't like to sit on the bench, so when they
didn't let him play on the team and wanted him to sit on the bench, I
guess he just left. I don't know that though.
Mr. JENNER. You think that's what happened to Lee, do you?
Mrs. MURRET. I think that's what might have happened to him. I don't
know though.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a competitive person?
Mrs. MURRET. Was he what?
Mr. JENNER. Was he competitive?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think so. Like I said, at school his only
remark about that was that he didn't think he had to go to school to
learn these subjects, because he knew all of them. He said he wasn't
learning anything, and it was just a waste of time.
I told him, I said, "Lee, that's not the idea. It's not a waste of
time. You have got to go through school in order to graduate, because
you need to graduate to get anywhere in this world." I told him,
"You are going to have to go on to college and make something out of
yourself, even if you think you know all the subjects." I think that's
one of the things that Marguerite got a little put out with me about.
She always wanted to let Lee have his way about everything.
Even after he came back from Russia, I talked to him about that, but
he answered me the same way. He said he didn't see any use in going to
school, that he knew all the subjects.
Mr. JENNER. Did your children discuss Lee in your presence?
Mrs. MURRET. Did they discuss Lee?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. What did your children think of Lee?
Mrs. MURRET. They loved Lee, I think. He was in my home, and he acted
like any other boy would act, no different, as far as that goes. I
didn't have television then, so he would eat dinner and then listen
to the radio and go to bed, and get up the next morning and do the
same things. Actually, the children didn't have much contact with him,
because he wouldn't go out and play at all. They really loved him a
lot, though. They have always loved him.
Mr. JENNER. Then eventually they went to Texas; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was that in the fall of 1956?
Mrs. MURRET. I think so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. They left New Orleans and went to Texas in 1956; right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. That's when he joined the Marines. I don't
know what that date is, but I know he joined the Marines after they
left.
Mr. JENNER. Your sister didn't tell you and Lee didn't tell you that
they were about to move to Texas?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think that's about the time that Robert came
in, because the next thing she said was that Robert didn't want to
stay here. He didn't want to make his home here, he said. He said
New Orleans was not his home, but that his friends were in Texas, so
I don't know if Robert left first, or if they all left together. In
fact, I didn't know she was leaving until she rang up one day--she had
a sewing machine that belonged to us, a portable sewing machine that
we had loaned her, and she called one day and said she was already
packed and ready to go to the train station, or whatever it was the
way she was going, and all she said was, "We're leaving; come get your
machine." We never did get the machine. When we went up there, the
place was locked up, and we never did get it back.
Mr. JENNER. This was a portable electric sewing machine?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told us she was leaving right then, and to come
and get it. She said she would leave it there in the house or something
like that, or it's in the house or something, and that was it. Like I
said, when we got over there the place was locked up and we didn't get
the machine back. She had some furniture that belonged to her there, I
think, so I don't know whether she took anything with her besides her
clothing or not; but she left.
Mr. JENNER. And where was this she called you from, do you know?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, they were over on Exchange Place at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Exchange?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go right over there to get the machine?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. When we did go over the place was all locked
up.
Mr. JENNER. So then that was the circumstance, as you knew it, after
Robert got out of the service?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and came to New Orleans. She thought he might live
here and work and help support the family.
Mr. JENNER. But he didn't like New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. He said all his friends were in Texas, and
he wanted to move over there.
Mr. JENNER. He said he wanted to live in Texas where his friends were?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's what he said. He said Texas was his home, not
New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. And so they moved to Texas?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and shortly after that--I forget when--but Robert
married, and I didn't even know he was married.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't even know that?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of boy was Robert?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know too much about Robert. After they moved away,
I didn't know too much about Robert, and I didn't know John too well
either. There's one thing. Robert and John, they never recognized one
another as brothers.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mrs. MURRET. They were stepbrothers, but having lived together from
real small children, you would think that they would love one another
as brothers, you know. You would think being small children, they would
accept each other as brothers and wouldn't think anything about being
halfbrothers or stepbrothers.
Mr. JENNER. Except they had two different names, Pic and Oswald; right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me this, Mrs. Murret: do you think that the fact that
your sister Marguerite insisted on John Edward Pic retaining his Pic
name despite the fact that her husband Oswald wanted to adopt him,
contributed to that feeling between the two boys?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't think, because John was 2 years old when she
married Oswald, and then Robert was born a few years after that, so I
don't think that would bring that about, but that's what she told me,
that Oswald wanted to adopt John, and she said, "No; John has a father,
and his name is Pic, and let's leave it at Pic and let the father
contribute to him."
Mr. JENNER. Well, perhaps I didn't frame my question right. You were
under the impression that the boys were conscious of the difference in
the name Pic as against Oswald, weren't you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you do recall that each regarded the other as his
brother; isn't that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think Lee loved Robert a lot, but maybe he wasn't
too fond of John. In a different way maybe he didn't love John as much
as he did Robert. That's just what I think.
Mr. JENNER. How did John and Robert get along?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know. I was never in their presence too much at
that age. I kept them when Mrs. Oswald gave birth to Lee, but they were
little then, you know, and they seemed to be getting along all right. I
had them for about a week, and I remember sitting outside and they were
saying that it had better not be a girl. "Because we don't want any
girls in this family."
Mr. JENNER. Oh well, that was boy talk, was it not?