Mr. JENNER. That's his nickname?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that D-u-t-z?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and they put it in the telephone book that way,
because he was in the fight game years ago. He managed some fighters,
and they have a lot of contact with sportswriters, and they knew him by
the name of "Dutz," so that's why he went and put it in the telephone
book, rather than Charles, so that they would know who he was, I guess.
Mr. JENNER. Does he still use that name?
Mrs. MURRET. He does.
Mr. JENNER. Is your telephone listed in that name?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's what I said. It's still listed that way. His
uncle gave him that nickname when he was a small child, and I always
knew him by the name of "Dutz." I never call him anything else but
that, but his family always called him Charles.
Mr. JENNER. What business is he in?
Mrs. MURRET. What's that?
Mr. JENNER. What is your husband's business again?
Mrs. MURRET. He works as a clerk.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else you can remember about Lee Oswald,
the father of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't remember anything else; no. I didn't know anything
about him at all other than being an insurance clerk and coming around
the house to collect insurance. He sort of maybe seemed to be a little
forward maybe, I thought, but, like a lot of insurance men, maybe it
helps on the debits, you know.
Mr. JENNER. He was aggressive in collecting the accounts; do you mean?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But not forward in any other respect?
Mrs. MURRET. No; not that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. I mean he was a gentleman?
Mrs. MURRET. As far as I know.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know anything about his family?
Mrs. MURRET. I know nothing about the Oswald family. I only met one
brother who was the godfather of Lee--little Lee Oswald, you know--and
I think his name was Harvey, maybe. I wouldn't be sure about that.
Mr. JENNER. Harvey?
Mrs. MURRET. I believe that's what it was, but that's about all I know
about the Oswald family. He's the only one I knew or ever saw.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know where Harvey Oswald is now?
Mrs. MURRET. He's dead now. I just saw him one time, and that was
after Lee was born. He came over to the house, and I think they were
friendly with Marguerite and all, but all of a sudden there was no more
friendship. I don't know why.
Mr. JENNER. Did this friendship terminate while the marriage still
existed, or was it afterward?
Mrs. MURRET. I think afterward. I don't know whether there was any
friendship with the Oswald family during this marriage or not. I
couldn't say. She never spoke about it, but I do know, after the death
of the brother, they had some dissension about something. I don't know
what, but that ended that friendship with the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you know or were advised, that was never
repaired, was it?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. Your sister married Mr. Ekdahl?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your recollection of that event is what?
Mrs. MURRET. What do you mean?
Mr. JENNER. What do you remember about that incident?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know anything about the marriage at all,
other than what you have told me about it. I only met Mr. Ekdahl one
time, and they were about to be married about that time it seems like,
and they say that Mr. Ekdahl was a sick man and had a bad heart, and he
was a little older than she was, and she didn't seem very enthusiastic
about marrying Mr. Ekdahl, and that's when his sister came down here
and she liked Marguerite a lot, and she said, "Why don't you go ahead
and marry him? He is lonesome," and so forth, so she just decided, I
guess, to marry Ed.
Mr. JENNER. His name was Edward Ekdahl?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; his name was Edward Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER. And it is your best recollection that you met him once
before the marriage?
Mrs. MURRET. That's all I saw him; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had your sister talked to you about him prior to the
marriage?
Mrs. MURRET. She spoke to me about him, I think. He was a high salaried
man, that I know, and he did research work for Texas Electric, I think,
and of course I don't think things worked out maybe too well for them,
I mean, about his way of giving her money and so forth.
I guess she thought things would be different after their marriage. You
see, he was sort of tight, I think, with his money. She would go to the
grocery store, but he would hold the money, and of course she didn't
like that part of it, I guess you know, so then she went around with
Mr. Ekdahl in his travels for the company and she also took Lee with
her wherever she had to go. And then Lee became of school age, and she
had these other two boys in the Chamberlin-Hunt College in Mississippi.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a military school?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and it's a high-priced military school, with
beautiful uniforms and so forth, and she used her own money for
these boys to go to military school. Mr. Ekdahl didn't take on that
responsibility. He didn't take on any obligation like that at all, as
far as I know. She said he didn't even take Lee as an obligation.
Now, whether this was all her idea or not, I don't know, because she
is very independent about things. I don't know, but that's the way I
understood it was, so then anyway, Lee traveled with her all over until
he became of school age.
During the summertime she rented a place at Covington so that she could
have her other two boys with her on vacation.
Mr. JENNER. Where is Covington?
Mrs. MURRET. Covington is right out of New Orleans, not too far away,
over the causeway. People more or less use it as a summer resort, and
they rent homes there, just like at Biloxi and Gulfport, and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, it's off in that direction?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; so she rented a place over there, and she stayed
there with the boys in the summer.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this was when she was married to Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; she was married to Ekdahl then.
Mr. JENNER. Did they visit you once in a while?
Mrs. MURRET. With Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. No; never. She was living in Texas at that time, but this
was during the summer that she stayed at Covington.
Mr. JENNER. Where was Mr. Ekdahl during the summer when she was at
Covington?
Mrs. MURRET. Mr. Ekdahl was traveling for the company, but she couldn't
travel with him because she had the boys during vacation time, and
then Lee became of school age and he had to go to school. Now, at that
time houses were hard to get, and even hotel rooms, I mean, when you
were traveling and so forth, so she agreed to stay over in Covington
and send Lee to school in Covington rather than go back to Texas. Now,
whether she stayed with Lee when he went to school or not, I don't know.
The next I heard, well, she was back in Texas. Now, I don't know about
that, how that came about, but she had this duplex. Now, if she had
bought this duplex or not at one time herself, I don't know, but she
had spoke something about buying a duplex.
Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. No; in Texas, Fort Worth. So it seems like--this is what
she told me; that's how I knew so much of her family life, from what
she told me. So then, she told me that when they left Covington, they
went back to Texas to this duplex, and now, she lived either in the
upper or lower part of this duplex, but anyway, one morning she was
outside in the yard and this lady who lived either in the upper or
lower, whichever way it was, came out into the yard and my sister
introduced herself as Mrs. Ekdahl, and this lady answered instead, "You
are not the Mrs. Ekdahl that I know."
Well, you can put two and two together there. Now, I am only repeating
what she told me, so then she got sort of scouting around, you know
what I mean, and she found out different things around there, and
she accused him of having someone in this house while she was over
in Covington. So then she got after him and he denied everything
about that, so then she said, "Well," and she just kept eyeing up the
situation, you know, and one time she found something in his pockets.
He had a train ticket to go on one of his trips, and she called the
place and found out that he had gotten two tickets, so she told him
that she would drive him to the train station, and he insisted that
she not drive him, that he could go alone, but she said, well, no,
she wanted to take him, and he said, no, that that would be too much
trouble and silly. Well, anyway, I think she did drive him there, and
when they got to the train station, I think she thought that whoever
it was holding the other ticket had already picked it up, this other
ticket, and was already on the train, so Mr. Ekdahl picked up his
ticket and went on, and I guess she always thought he wasn't true
to her after that, you see, so she said one night she followed Mr.
Ekdahl----
Mr. JENNER. Who?
Mrs. MURRET. She did in her car, or somebody's car, and John, and I
don't know if it was one of John's friends or Robert's, but anyway
they followed Mr. Ekdahl, and they saw him go into this house, and
she waited a few minutes on the outside, and then she had one of the
boys run up the steps, and he hollered, "Western Union," and when he
hollered, "Western Union," this woman opened the door, and when she
opened the door, pushed the door back, Mr. Ekdahl was sitting in the
living room. When he left her, he was fully dressed, but his coat and
tie and shirt was off, and he had his athletic shirt on. He had his
coat and top shirt off and so forth, and he was sitting in there, so
she questioned him about that, and he said he was there on business,
which was absurd, because you know you don't disrobe yourself on
business, so that's what started off the Ekdahl case, and then of
course she wanted to get a divorce from him right away, you see, and
that's why I say she's quick, you see, because I would not have gotten
a divorce. I would have got a separation, because he was making a big
salary, and so forth, but anyway, she wanted a divorce it seemed like,
but it seemed like he had connections and he must have gone to get
the divorce before she could get it, or whatever it was. She had gone
to her pastor and told her pastor about it, and her pastor told her
that if she would press this case against Ekdahl, that he would have a
heart attack and that would make her a murderer, that she would be the
cause of him dying, so he was in the hospital, I think, so she went to
the hospital to see him, and I think they had a roarup there at the
hospital. I don't know what that was all about because, you see, I
don't know anything about all of that except what she told me. So then
she got a divorce from Mr. Ekdahl, and she settled for not too very
much and it wasn't very long before Mr. Ekdahl died, so that was the
end of the Ekdahl affair.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, let me take you back to the beginning
now for a few moments, if you will. We had Lee over at the Bethlehem
orphanage after he left the house; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He was there when he was five years old, and he stayed
there until she married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he was in the home awhile first. I mean, he was at
my house, I would say, between 1-1/2 and 2 years, and then I couldn't
keep him any more. I guess there must have been some dissension or
something.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of dissension?
Mrs. MURRET. She got angry or something, and I might have told her to
take her child, you know, or whatever it was, so she put him in with
the other two boys in the home then.
Mr. JENNER. She was quick tempered, would you say?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, that's what I mean; yes.
Mr. JENNER. She would flare up in a moment; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; you see, she was always right. She couldn't take
anything from anybody, in other words, or you might say she was not
reasonable, and especially in some things that are right, because you
can keep doing and doing and doing, but then you get to the point where
the other party never seems to be doing anything.
Mr. JENNER. She didn't seem to exhibit a full measure of appreciation
that was warranted, is that what you mean?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I didn't keep the child for anything like that. I
kept him for himself and for the love of God, and so forth, and we
liked the child, but of course we had our own obligation with our own
children, and this was her life. She made her own life.
Of course, I do say that maybe she made it, and then she didn't make
it, because you see, it's just the way things happened. Now, whether
she was the cause of these things happening or not, I don't know, but
she seemed to be a victim of all these circumstances.
Mr. JENNER. But they kept repeating themselves, a number of them; isn't
that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they kept coming along; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, she then married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you had met him only once, I believe you said?
Mrs. MURRET. Once; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Were you at the wedding?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no; I didn't go to the wedding. They were married in
Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Were you advised that she was about to marry him?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think I knew that she was about to marry him; no,
sir. I just received a picture of her and Ekdahl on their wedding trip,
and she had written on it, "Happily married," and she sent a picture of
the house that they lived in. It was a very nice place, and they seemed
to be doing O.K., you know.
Mr. JENNER. Were they married here in New Orleans, or were they married
in Texas?
Mrs. MURRET. I imagine they were married in Texas. Mr. Ekdahl was a
divorced man. I guess he was a divorced man. He had to be. I don't
know, but I don't think he could get married without being divorced. He
had a son.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know he did, and his people were Boston people, were
they not?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I know she met his sister. It was her, his sister,
that sort of persuaded her that she ought to go ahead and marry him.
She went up to see them, I think.
Mr. JENNER. In Boston?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You think his sister influenced her a lot?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think so.
Mr. JENNER. But she was somewhat disappointed in Mr. Ekdahl insofar as
his handling of the family funds was concerned; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I imagine she was.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't want you to imagine. What impression did you
get from what she said to you?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she just said that she thought things would be
different, that since he was a high-salaried man, she didn't think she
would have the kind of life she was living, like pinching pennies, and
having to ask him for everything that she wanted. I think she was under
the impression that he would give her so much, or I don't know anything
about the amounts, you know, but that's what I gathered from what she
told me.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I think you said that he did not assume
responsibility for any of the three children; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's what she said.
Mr. JENNER. And she told you when she placed her two boys, John and
Robert, in the military school, what was the name of that?
Mrs. MURRET. Chamberlin-Hunt Academy.
Mr. JENNER. That she was assuming the responsibility of paying their
way?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she did. She always had a lot of character. That I
can say about her, you know, for a woman alone. She would have never
done anything she wasn't supposed to do, even though she was in dire
circumstances, and so forth, but one thing would come on like that, and
she would just act up very quickly, like I told you, if she didn't like
something happening or something you did or said, something like that.
Of course, there are always two sides to every story, and I don't know
the other side. I only know one side.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that Lee lived with you from about 1939 to
1941?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I guess it was along in there. It's hard to remember
those dates exactly, that's been so long ago.
Mr. JENNER. Did he live at any time at 1010 Bartholomew Street in New
Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they did. That's the house I was trying to recollect
that she bought, I think, after she left this Alvar Street residence.
She bought this house on Bartholomew.
Mr. JENNER. And she lived there about a year; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know how long she lived there.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her living at 2136 Broadway in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. What street?
Mr. JENNER. Broadway.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. 2136 Broadway?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. That was just a month, about the middle of August to about
the 10th of September 1942.
Mrs. MURRET. I know nothing of that.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall their residing at 227 Atlantic Avenue in
Algiers?
Mrs. MURRET. No, I don't. That's possibly where the boys were over
there. Is that an orphanage, or whatever it was?
Mr. JENNER. I don't know. Is there an orphanage over at Algiers?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That's not the Bethlehem place, is it?
Mrs. MURRET. No, I don't know what orphanage that was, but they were
over there in Algiers, and then they were transferred from Algiers to
Bethlehem down here in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Where is Bethlehem located, this Bethlehem institution?
Mrs. MURRET. It's way down off of St. Claude Street somewhere, way down
on the other end of town. I don't think it's there any more. It could
be. It was a very old place.
Mr. JENNER. I have said that she married Mr. Ekdahl in 1948. I am
afraid I am wrong about that. I think that was 1945 that she married
him, which squares more with your recollection.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, I think so, because that's what I thought. Lee was
around 5, and you had him down as 8, and I couldn't recollect having
him at 8 years old.
Mr. JENNER. You were right in your recollection. Now, what town in
Texas was it that they moved to?
Mrs. MURRET. I think it was Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. They moved to Fort Worth?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Was that address 4801 Victor? Does that refresh your
recollection on that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she lived a couple of places, you know. Do you mean
after she married Mr. Ekdahl and moved to Texas, to Fort Worth?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know the address at that time. I just don't
recollect that address, because she lived in some other places too. I
really don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether she ever lived in Dallas?
Mrs. MURRET. I never knew she lived in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Is the town of Benbrook, Tex., familiar to you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; you see, I hadn't heard from her. You see, she went
from New York to Texas. That was about 2 years later, I think. I just
don't know that. I remember her saying that she bought some property
some place in Texas, and she couldn't keep it up, and she probably
mortgaged it to this man on a rental basis, or something like that,
and they had some trouble with that; I don't know. Don't you get tired
listening to this merry-go-round?
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret, lawyers don't get tired.
Mrs. MURRET. It would be too bad if you did.
Mr. JENNER. We are under the impression that they moved to Dallas,
Tex., first and lived on Victor Street, 4801 Victor Street, in 1945 up
until 1946, and then they moved to Fort Worth.
Mrs. MURRET. Oh.
Mr. JENNER. I am not attempting to give you information, now; I am just
asking if you recall that, or if you ever knew that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, that could be; yes, sir; but I thought they had gone
to Fort Worth myself. That's what I thought.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't hear much from her during that time, did you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; during those years I didn't hear much from her. Maybe
she would send a card or a picture or something like that, but we
didn't correspond.
Mr. JENNER. You say she sent you a picture of the house where she was
living with Mr. Ekdahl?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and she sent me a picture of herself and the boys
around Christmas time, and that's about all.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any pictures of the family, album pictures or
snapshots of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. MURRET. Of Lee Harvey?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. Or Mr. Ekdahl.
Mrs. MURRET. I have her picture with Mr. Ekdahl when they were married.
Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would give that to your husband and let him
bring that in the morning when he comes in?
Mrs. MURRET. The snapshot?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; and will you look hard and see if you have any other
pictures with your children taken when they were small with Lee, and
that sort of thing? (The snapshot of Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl was produced
by Mrs. Murret and was marked and admitted in evidence on her affidavit
as Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1.)
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't have any of my children with Lee when he was
living with us. I have Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl. She sent that picture,
where she wrote on it, "Happily married." Like I say, I can't recollect
her living in Dallas, in that home in Dallas. I always thought it was
Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. It appears now that at least during or sometime in 1946,
she lived in Covington, La., at 600 West 24th Street, and at 311
Vermont Street in Covington. Now, your recollection of that is that
this was in the summer of 1946; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And she brought her three boys together with her there; is
that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At this time, her husband Ekdahl had not joined her, had he?
Mrs. MURRET. Not that I know of. I assume he was out on his business,
you know, while they were spending the summer over there. He came in
periodically every 2 weeks, or every week, or whatever it was; I don't
know.
Mr. JENNER. It was your impression that he was a research man for what
company?
Mrs. MURRET. A sick man?
Mr. JENNER. No; a research man.
Mrs. MURRET. He did research for Texas Electric, and she told me his
salary was over $1,000 a month.
Mr. JENNER. Which is a substantial amount of money; right?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, I imagine so, but sometimes you can get along on $250
better than $1,000.
Mr. JENNER. That's right. Now, let me delve into that a little bit.
If it was $1,000 a month, she at that time regarded it as a very
substantial income; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you people as well would regard that as a substantial
income; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. We people?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, the Murret family.
Mrs. MURRET. My family?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; we would think we were millionaires if we had
that much money, but still I think we always did a lot with our money.
Our main reason was for our family. That's why my husband wanted to
educate his children. That was his main reason, because he knew how
tough it is in the outside world, so he wanted them at least to have
that much. Of course, these are children who liked to go to school and
who liked to study. You take this girl out there, she is studying all
the time.
Mr. JENNER. You mean your daughter who is outside waiting for you now?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; she is still studying, and Gene he is still
studying. Like I said before, we all worked together to see that
everybody got his chance. John was a top athlete in school, and then he
went to St. Louis U.
Mr. JENNER. St. Louis?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he was one of the few boys that ever got a
scholarship to St. Louis U. for basketball, but he only went there for
about a year, and they wanted him to play at Loyola, and they kept
after him when he came here on a visit, so he left St. Louis and went
to Loyola.
Mr. JENNER. Loyola of Chicago?
Mrs. MURRET. No; Loyola of New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. MURRET. St. Louis University, the coach there wouldn't let him
play baseball, and baseball was his love. He was a very good basketball
player too, but he loved to play ball. He even played with the St.
Louis Cardinals on a farm team, but he saw he would never really get
anywhere as an outfielder, so he quit.
Mr. JENNER. But he was good enough to play on one of the St. Louis
Cardinals farm teams; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. He was a good athlete. He was good at ball, baseball
and basketball, and in fact, he went to Murray, Ky. He was one of the
boys selected from the South. They had a North and South game, and he
was selected from the southern section. It was an all-star game of some
kind. He just won a trip to Rome with the Swift Co.
Mr. JENNER. He works for the Swift Co. now?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. He and his wife are leaving this Saturday.
Mr. JENNER. How nice.
Mrs. MURRET. He earned it. I mean, he didn't win it; he earned it.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you say that while Marguerite was in Covington with
the three boys in the summer of 1946, that Mr. Ekdahl continued in his
travels in connection with his business?
Mrs. MURRET. I assume he did; that's what he said. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. At least he wasn't there with her and the boys?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. That was your information, that she had her boys at
Covington in the summer of 1946, during vacation, but that her husband
Mr. Ekdahl was not in Covington that summer; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he was. I can't say whether he was or not,
because I don't know, but she said he wasn't. I assume he was on one of
these trips he made in his business, and that's why she was over there
with the boys, but I don't know any of that myself. I don't think I
even knew she was in Covington until I met her 1 day in town.
Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was that during that summer vacation period?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she told you then that they were in Covington?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had she not tried to reach you in the meantime?
Mrs. MURRET. No; she had not.
Mr. JENNER. Is Covington very far away?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. How far away is it?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, about 100-some-odd miles. It isn't very far away.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything to you at that time as to how she was
getting along with her husband?
Mrs. MURRET. Nothing. She just mentioned the boys being on vacation
over there, and Lee becoming of school age, and she thought she would
just stay there while he went to school.
Mr. JENNER. You mean the fall term, when she would put him in school in
Covington, La.?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did she do that?
Mrs. MURRET. I couldn't say whether he went to school there or not. The
next I heard is when she left Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER. When she left Ekdahl?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then to summarize her life with Ekdahl, she married him and
she took the boys out, the two older boys, out of the orphanage and put
them in military school in Mississippi; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At her own expense?
Mrs. MURRET. So she said.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; so she said. That's what she told you?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She kept Lee with her; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he at that time around 5 years old?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or maybe a little older?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she had accompanied her husband at least for a time in
his travels; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she had the boy Lee with her and Mr. Ekdahl; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It is your impression that Ekdahl did not support Lee, but
that she had to support him; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. I thought, at least she told me, that he did not support
Lee either. I thought she told me that. I may be wrong on that.
Mr. JENNER. Was Ekdahl a man of formal education beyond grammar school?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know anything about Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER. You don't know?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. But it was your impression that he was previously married
and had a son; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She met him here in New Orleans; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You don't know under what circumstances, though, do you?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. She spoke to you nothing about the fact that he had a bad
heart?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, she told me that. She said he had a bad heart; a very
bad heart, I believe she said.
Mr. JENNER. And the man's sister had come down from Boston, and she
approved of Marguerite, and she urged Mr. Ekdahl to marry her; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And they did marry?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. No children were born of that marriage?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think she was married to him very long.
Mr. JENNER. They were divorced in 1948, I believe; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know about the date on that.
Mr. JENNER. But they weren't married very long, and that marriage was
not, as far as you know, an entirely smooth one, was it?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I only know what she told me. She told me what went
on.
Mr. JENNER. And you have already told us about that.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that was the reason for the divorce.
Mr. JENNER. Had she sold her house that she had here in New Orleans at
the time she married Ekdahl?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think she did. She sold the Alvar Street home and
moved into the Bartholomew Street home, which was a small house. It was
a very low-priced residence.
Mr. JENNER. At 1010 Bartholomew?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. And then she sold that at a profit; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, that's what she said, and that was something else
about her; she started sort of getting into the business of buying
property and selling it and making money off of it and so forth, but
things don't just work out the way you want them to sometimes, the way
you would like them to work out.
Mr. JENNER. Did she also undertake to sell insurance at one time?
Mrs. MURRET. She said she did. The last time she was here, she said she
was selling insurance, but whether or not she did I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You mean last fall; when she was here last fall?
Mrs. MURRET. I guess it was in the fall that she was here; yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was before the assassination?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. She said then that she was selling insurance?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. That was after we hadn't heard from them for a very
long time. I didn't even know that Lee was in the service, and so
forth, and then one day he called me up from the bus station here, but
during that time we hadn't heard from them until he called me from
the bus station here and said he was in town and wanted a place to
stay. Now, my daughter's husband was going over to Texas to a coaching
school, I think to coach at Beaumont High, so we asked him if he would
call them when he got over there and maybe visit and find out how they
were getting along, and he did telephone, but he wasn't able to go
out to the house, but they told him that there had been an accident;
that she had been working in a candy shop and a glass jar fell on her
nose, and that she had sustained other injuries. So he told us about
that, and I wrote to her, and I sent her money, and I made up a box of
clothing of whatever I thought she might need and so forth, a lot of
things, and sent them to her, and every week I would send what I could,
$5, $10, or whatever it was.
Mr. JENNER. When was that, Mrs. Murret? Was that in 1962 or 1963?
Mrs. MURRET. That was while he was in the Marines, still in the
Marines, because she said at that time she was trying to get Lee out
of the Marines, but his time was nearly up, and she was pleading a
hardship case, to get Lee out so he could give her some support. Now,
that was over the telephone, I think.
Mr. JENNER. That was a telephone conversation you had with her?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was this then in this spring; the late spring of 1959?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Because he got out of the service in September of 1959.
Mrs. MURRET. That's right, because after he defected here, she visited
here. Now, when I talked to her over the telephone, and she told me
what it was costing her financially and everything, that's when they
let him out of the service, right after that, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; in September of 1959.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir, and so then Lee came home, and she was living in
this one room; so Lee stayed there 1 or 2 days, whatever it was, and
then he said, "Well, this is not for me."
Mr. JENNER. Who said that?
Mrs. MURRET. Lee said that. Lee had money that he had saved. He had
saved over $1,000 or $1,400--I don't know the amount--but after he got
home and stayed there 1 day, he said, "Well, this is not for me; I'm
leaving."
Mr. JENNER. Lee said that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; so he left. She thought he was coming to New Orleans;
so she called me and she said that he had left by bus, and that she
thought he was coming to New Orleans, and that he had worked as a
runner when he was here for a while for Tujague's, and she thought he
might be coming here for that reason, and that he may stop at my house,
but not to tell him that she had called me, but Lee never did stop at
the house. If he did, I didn't know it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he call you?
Mrs. MURRET. No; he didn't call. I never heard from him, and I was
waiting, and I have always felt that if he had only stopped at the
house, you know, this might not have happened.
Mr. JENNER. What do you think would have happened if he had stopped by
or called?
Mrs. MURRET. I think we might have been able to help him get a job, or
maybe we couldn't have done anything; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you would have tried, anyhow.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; anyway, we didn't see Lee, and I had to go out that
afternoon and I was under the impression, I thought maybe he did come,
you know, pass by, and I asked some children in the block if they had
seen somebody in the house and they said yes, that they saw someone
with a small suitcase, but afterward I thought it was the Fuller brush
man. I thought that afterward. So then I didn't know anything any more
about Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Could we stop there a minute and go back over this? After
the divorce from Ekdahl, did she continue to live in Texas?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and that's another thing. We felt that if she could
have gotten along with Ekdahl, that they would have all been together.
Lee would have had someone to look up to as a father, and so forth, and
things might have been different, but you can't go by what could have
happened. I guess sometimes you make your own troubles.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, after Ekdahl left and they were divorced,
then she remained in touch with you, but she didn't return here?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. And then, at that time, she would have had her son, Lee,
and her son, John, and her son, Robert, with her; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All living in in their home in Fort Worth?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did Marguerite tell you about the way
she brought Lee up; I mean with regard to whether he was to stay in the
house after school, and things like that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she told me that she had trained Lee to stay in the
house; to stay close to home when she wasn't there; and even to run
home from school and remain in the house or near the house. She said
she thought it would be safer to have him just do a few chores in the
house, like taking the garbage cans out and things like that, than to
have him outside playing when she wasn't there. She figured he wouldn't
get in any trouble in the house. Maybe she thought she was making it
safer for him by doing that, rather than being out with other children,
but I don't know. I guess that's what happened. He just got in the
habit of staying alone like that. That's probably the time that he got
like that; he was with himself so much.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, you heard from your sister from time to
time?
Mrs. MURRET. What's that?
Mr. JENNER. You heard from your sister from time to time during all of
this period, didn't you?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, every now and then, but after she had left Ekdahl,
I didn't hear from her too much. I don't know what went on. I think
Robert worked at some supermarket, and so forth. He had to support
the family, or whatever it was, and then I believe he graduated from
high school, Robert did, and then I think he was in love with some
little Italian girl who was a crippled girl, and she told me that the
family liked Robert a lot and they were trying to get the two together
to get married, but she wanted to break that up because the girl was
crippled, but Robert said he loved the girl, but she was thinking that
he was young and he just thought he loved the girl, and maybe if he
did marry her he would find out that he didn't like her because of her
being handicapped, and all that happened in there. I don't know all the
details, but, anyway, Robert went in the Marines, and that ended that.
He went in the Marines on his 17th birthday, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. The same as Lee Harvey?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; that must have been right after graduation.
Robert was sort of a nice-looking boy, I think, but, anyway, she told
me that these Italian people were trying to make a marriage between
Robert and this handicapped girl. That's what she said. I don't know
anything about that, really; so then Robert went in the marines, and
she got a job in New York. They went to New York about that time, and
she got a job with the same people that she had been working for here.
Mr. JENNER. Hosiery?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; it was the same people, but Lee didn't want to go
to school over there; so he was a sort of a problem by not going to
school, and one day when she was at work they came to the apartment and
they got him and they took him off and put him in this place, and she
had to get a lawyer, and the lawyer got him out of the place, and he
told her that she had better get out of New York as fast as she could
with this boy, and that's all I know about that story. And then it must
have been on the way back--I didn't even know she had went to New York,
but anyway, on the way back she must have come looking for a place to
stay here in New Orleans, and she came to my house and we put her up
for I don't know how long. It was during that time that Robert was
getting out of the marines, because Robert met her at my house after
she had been staying there a couple of weeks or a month, or whatever it
was, and they all went back to Texas, and I didn't hear from them for a
while.
Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you here a minute, Mrs. Murret. I will get
back to that again in a moment. According to your story, when Ekdahl
died, they remained in Texas until they went to New York; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I imagine that was after she separated and after
Robert graduated from high school. I assume that was the time she went
to New York. I don't know if I'm right on that or not.
Mr. JENNER. Does the late summer of 1952 refresh your recollection as
to when she went to New York?
Mrs. MURRET. 1952?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; 1952, when she went to New York.