Dr. OLIVIER. Gelatin instead of the tissues.
Mr. SPECTER. Now at what range was the firing performed on the gelatin,
goatmeat and horsemeat?
Dr. OLIVIER. This firing was done at a 60-yard range.
Mr. SPECTER. And what gun was used?
Dr. OLIVIER. The 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano that was marked Commission
Exhibit 139.
Mr. SPECTER. And what bullets were used?
Dr. OLIVIER. The Western ammunition lot 6,000, 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano.
Mr. SPECTER. And was there any substance placed over the gelatin,
horsemeat and goatmeat?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; over the gelatin we had clothing; had a suit, shirt
and undershirt, and underneath that a clipped goatskin. The same thing
was over the meat, and on the other side of the meat was also clipped
goatskin.
Mr. SPECTER. Would there be any significant difference to the test by
leaving out the undershirt if the President had not worn an undershirt?
Dr. OLIVIER. No.
Mr. SPECTER. So that the circumstance was simulated with the actual
type clothing and a protective skin over the substance just as
realistically as you could make it?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What measurement was obtained as to the entrance velocity
of the bullet at the distance of 60 yards which you described?
Dr. OLIVIER. The striking velocity at an average of three shots was
1,904 feet per second.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the average exit velocity on each of the
substances used?
Dr. OLIVIER. For the gelatin the average exit velocity was 1,779 feet
per second. The horsemeat, the average exit velocity was 1,798 feet
per second. And the goatmeat the average exit velocity was 1,772 feet
per second.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 849
and ask you what that picture represents?
Dr. OLIVIER. This is one of the gelatin blocks used in that test. It
shows the type of track left by the bullet passing through it. That
bullet is very stable. Passing through the body and muscle, it would
make a similar type wound. Of course, you couldn't observe it that
nicely.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe that as being a straight line?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a picture marked Commission Exhibit No. 850
and ask you what that represents?
Dr. OLIVIER. These are pieces of clipped goatskin, clipped very
shortly. There is still some hair on it. These were placed, these
particular ones were placed over the tissues. This would be placed over
the entrance side of the animal.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say "this," you are referring to a piece of
goatskin which is marked "enter"?
Dr. OLIVIER. Marked "enter." The one marked "exit" was placed on the far
side of the tissues and the bullet passed through that after it came
out of the tissues.
Mr. SPECTER. For the record, will you describe the characteristics,
which are shown on the goatskin at the point of entry, please?
Dr. OLIVIER. At the point of entry the wound holes through the skin
are for all purposes round. On the exit side they are more elongated,
two of them in particular are a little more elongated. The bullet had
started to become slightly unstable coming out.
Mr. SPECTER. And how about the third or lower bullet on the skin
designated exit?
Dr. OLIVIER. That hole appears as more stable than the other two. In
all three cases the bullet is still pretty stable. The gelatin blocks,
there were gelatin blocks placed behind these things too, and for all
practical purposes, the tracks through them still indicated a stable
bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other conclusions which you would care to
add to those which you have already indicated, resulting from the tests
you have heretofore described?
Dr. OLIVIER. Well, it means that the bullet that passed through the
President's neck had lost very little of its wounding potential and
was capable of doing a great deal of damage in penetrating. I might
mention one thing showing how great its penetrating ability was. That
say on one of the gelatin shots, it went through a total, counting the
gelatin block, it went through plus the backing up blocks of gelatin,
it went through a total of 72-1/2 centimeters of gelatin, was still
traveling and buried itself in a mound of earth so it has terrific
penetrating ability. This means that had the bullet that passed through
the President's neck hit in the car or anywhere you would have seen
evidence, a good deal of evidence.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Olivier, in the regular course of your work for the
U.S. Army, do you have occasion to perform tests on animal materials
where the characteristics of those animals materials are sufficiently
similar to human bodies to make a determination of the effect of the
bullet wounds in human bodies?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I do.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you have occasion to make a test on goat material
in connection with the experiments which you ran?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you familiar with the wounds inflicted on Governor
Connally on November 22, 1963?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; from reading the surgeon's report and also from
talking to Dr. Gregory and Dr. Shaw.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have access to the medical reports of Parkland
Hospital concerning the wounds of Governor Connally in all respects?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you have occasion to discuss those wounds in
great detail with Dr. Shaw and Dr. Gregory when they were present in
Washington, D.C. on April 21, 1964, preparatory to their testifying
before this Commission?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the nature of the wound on Governor Connally's
back?
Dr. OLIVIER. The surgeon's report described it as about 3 centimeters
long, its longest dimension, and it is hard for me to remember reading
it or discussing it with him but I did both. Apparently it was a jagged
wound. He said a wound like this consists of two things, usually a
defect in the epidermis and a central hole which is small, and he could
put his finger in it so it was a fairly large wound.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the path of the bullet in a general way, based on
the information provided to you concerning Governor Connally's wound in
the back?
Dr. OLIVIER. Apparently it passed along the rib. I don't recall which
rib it was but passed the fifth rib, passed along this rib causing a
fracture that I believe removed about 10 centimeters of the rib through
fragments through the pleura, lacerating the lung. I asked Dr. Shaw
directly whether he thought the bullet had gone through the pleural
cavity and he said he didn't believe that it had, that the damage was
done by the rib fragments. Then the bullet exited as described somewhat
below the right nipple.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you perform a test on goat substance to endeavor to
measure the reduction in velocity of a missile similar to the one which
passed through Governor Connally?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Why was goat substance selected for that purpose in the
testing procedure?
Dr. OLIVIER. We usually use this in our work so we are familiar with
it. I am not saying it is the only substance that could be used, but we
were not using any unknown procedures or any procedures that we hadn't
used already.
Mr. SPECTER. Does it closely simulate the nature of a wound in the
human body?
Dr. OLIVIER. In this particular instance it did.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound inflicted on the goat, then, subjected to
X-ray analysis for the purpose of determining the precise nature of the
wound and for comparison purposes with that wound----
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it was.
Mr. SPECTER. Inflicted on Connally?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it was.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you an X-ray marked Commission Exhibit 851 and
ask you to state what that shows?
Dr. OLIVIER. It shows a fractured rib. From this you wouldn't be able
to--well, if you were a better radiologist than I was, you might be
able to tell which one, but it was the eighth left rib. It shows a
comminuted fracture extending some distance along the rib.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 852, which is a
photograph, and ask you to testify as to what that depicts, please?
Dr. OLIVIER. This is a photograph taken from the same X-ray again
showing the comminuted fracture of the eighth left rib.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that a photograph then of the X-ray designated
Commission Exhibit 851?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe personally the
X-rays showing the wound on Governor Connally's rib?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. And how do those X-rays compare with the wound inflicted
as depicted in Exhibits 851 and 852?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are very similar.
Mr. SPECTER. When the wounds were inflicted, as depicted in 851 and
852, what weapon was used?
Dr. OLIVIER. This was again the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano
rifle.
Mr. SPECTER. And what bullets were used?
Dr. OLIVIER. The 6.5 millimeter Western ammunition lot 6,000.
Mr. SPECTER. And what distance was utilized?
Dr. OLIVIER. On the goat the distance was 70 yards.
Mr. SPECTER. And was there any covering over the goat?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes. There was a suit, shirt, and undershirt.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the entrance velocity of the bullet?
Dr. OLIVIER. Striking velocity for an average of 11 shots was 1,929
feet per second.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the exit velocity?
Dr. OLIVIER. The exit velocity was 1,664 feet per second.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a box containing a bullet, which has been
marked as Commission Exhibit No. 853, and ask you if you have ever seen
that bullet before?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And under what circumstances have you previously seen that
bullet?
Dr. OLIVIER. This was the bullet that was fired through the goat. It
went through the velocity screens into some cotton waste, dropped out
of the bottom of that and was lying on the floor. It was picked up
immediately afterwards still warm, so we knew it was the bullet that
had fired that particular shot.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that fired through the goat depicted in the
photographs and X-ray, 851 and 852?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; that was the goat.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for the record, verbally please, the
characteristics of that bullet?
Dr. OLIVIER. The bullet has been quite flattened. The lead core is
extruding somewhat from the rear. We weighed the bullet. It weighs
158.8 grains.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which has been
heretofore in Commission proceedings identified as the bullet found
on the stretcher of Governor Connally, and ask if you have had an
opportunity to compare 399 with 853?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you find on that comparison?
Dr. OLIVIER. The bullet recovered on the stretcher has not been
flattened as much, but there is a suggestion of flattening there from
a somewhat similar occurrence. Also, the lead core has extruded from
the rear in the same fashion, and it appears that some of it has even
broken from the rear.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there some flattening on both of those bullets in
approximately the same areas toward the rear of the missiles?
Dr. OLIVIER. In the bullet, our particular bullet is flattened the
whole length, but you say towards the rear?
Mr. SPECTER. You say our bullet; you mean 853?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, 853 is flattened. No. 399 is flattened more towards
the rear.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other conclusions which you have to add to
the tests performed on the goat?
Dr. OLIVIER. Well, again in this test it demonstrates that the bullet
that was stable when it struck in this fashion again lost very little
velocity in going through that much goat tissue.
Incidentally, the amount of goat tissue it traversed was probably
somewhat less than the Governor, but in any case it indicates the
bullet would have had a lot of remaining velocity and could have done a
lot of damage.
Another thing that hasn't been brought up is the velocity screen
immediately behind the goat, the imprint of the bullet left on it was
almost the length of the bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. What does that indicate?
Dr. OLIVIER. This indicates that the bullet was now no longer traveling
straight but either traveling sideways or tumbling end over end at the
time it hit the screen.
Mr. SPECTER. And that was after the point of exit from the goat?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other conclusions which you found from the
studies on the goat?
Dr. OLIVIER. No, I believe that is all I can think of right at this
moment.
Mr. SPECTER. In the regular course of your work for the U.S. Army,
do you have occasion to perform tests on parts of human cadavers to
determine the effects of bullets on human beings?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I do.
Mr. SPECTER. And was a series of tests performed under your supervision
on the portions of human cadavers simulated to the wound inflicted on
the wrist of Governor Connally?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you familiar with the nature of the wound on Governor
Connally's wrist prior to performing those tests?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I was.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the source of your information on those wounds?
Dr. OLIVIER. I had read the surgeon's report, also talked with Dr.
Gregory, the surgeon who had done the surgery, and had looked at the
X-rays.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you had an opportunity to discuss the wounds with Dr.
Gregory and view the X-rays taken at Parkland Hospital, here in the
Commission headquarters?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. On April 21, 1964?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you an X-ray marked as Commission Exhibit 854,
and ask you what that depicts?
Dr. OLIVIER. This is a comminuted fracture of the distal end of the
radius of a human arm.
Mr. SPECTER. And in what manner was that wound caused?
Dr. OLIVIER. It was caused by a bullet from the Commission Exhibit 139.
This was again the 6.5-millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano Western ammunition
lot 6,000.
Mr. SPECTER. Fired at what distance?
Dr. OLIVIER. Fired at a distance of 70 yards.
Mr. SPECTER. And was there anything protecting the wrist at the time of
impact?
Dr. OLIVIER. Not protection but there was again clothing, this time
suit material or suit lining, at least suit material and shirt. I am
not sure about the lining. I can tell you. I have it right here. Suit
material, suit lining material, and shirt material.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit
855 and ask you what that represents?
Dr. OLIVIER. This is a photograph taken from the X-ray, Commission
Exhibit 854.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the record the details of the
injuries shown on 854 and 855, please?
Dr. OLIVIER. This is a comminuted fracture of the distal end of the
radius. It was struck directly by the bullet. It passed through, not
directly through but through at an oblique angle so that it entered
more proximal on the dorsal side of the wrist and distal on the volar
aspect.
Mr. SPECTER. How does the entry and exit compare with the wound on
Governor Connally which you observed on the X-rays?
Dr. OLIVIER. In this particular instance to the best of my memory from
looking at the X-rays, it is very close. It is about one of the best
ones that we obtained.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any definable difference at all?
Dr. OLIVIER. I couldn't determine any.
Mr. SPECTER. It is close, you say?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes. If I had both X-rays in front of me if there was a
difference I could determine it, but from memory I would say it was for
all purposes identical.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a bullet in a case marked Commission
Exhibit 856 and ask if you have ever seen that before?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes. This is the bullet that caused the damage shown in
Commission Exhibits Nos. 854 and 855.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe that bullet for the record, please?
Dr. OLIVIER. The nose of the bullet is quite flattened from striking
the radius.
Mr. SPECTER. How does it compare, for example, with Commission Exhibit
399?
Dr. OLIVIER. It is not like it at all. I mean, Commission Exhibit 399
is not flattened on the end. This one is very severely flattened on the
end.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the velocity of the missile at the time it struck
the wrist depicted in 854 and 855?
Dr. OLIVIER. The average striking velocity was 1,858 feet per second.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have the precise striking velocity of that one?
Dr. OLIVIER. No; I don't. We could not put velocity screen in front of
the individual shots because it would have interfered with the gunner's
view. So we took five shots and got an average striking velocity.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say five shots with an average striking velocity,
those were at the delineated distance without striking anything on
those particular shots?
Dr. OLIVIER. Right, and after establishing that velocity, then we went
on to shoot the various arms.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the exit velocity?
Dr. OLIVIER. On this particular one?
Mr. SPECTER. If you have it?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes. Well, I don't know if I have that or not. We didn't
get them in all because some of these things deflect. No, I have no
exit velocity on this particular one.
Mr. SPECTER. What exit velocity did you get on the average?
Dr. OLIVIER. Average exit velocity was 1,776 feet per second. This was
for an average of seven. We did 10. We obtained velocity on seven.
Mr. SPECTER. Would the average reduction be approximately the same,
in your professional opinion, as to the bullet exiting from the wrist
depicted in 854 and 855?
Dr. OLIVIER. Somewhat. Let me give you the extremes of our velocities.
The highest one was 1,866 and the lowest was 1,664, so there was a
202-feet-per-second difference in the thing. Some of the cases bone was
missed, in other cases glancing blows. But I would say it is a close
approximation to what the exit velocity was on that particular one.
Mr. SPECTER. And what would the close approximation be, the average?
Dr. OLIVIER. The average.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you compare the damage, which was done to Governor
Connally's wrist, as contrasted with the damage to the wrist depicted
in 854 and 855?
Dr. OLIVIER. The damage in the wrist that you see in the X-ray on 854
and 855, the damage is greater than was done to the Governor's wrist.
There is more severe comminution here.
Mr. SPECTER. How much more severe is the comminution?
Dr. OLIVIER. Considerably more. If I remember correctly in the
X-rays of the Governor's wrist, I think there were only two or three
fragments, if that many. Here we have many, many small fragments.
Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, based on the tests which you have
performed, was the damage inflicted on Governor Connally's wrist caused
by a pristine bullet, a bullet fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle
6.5 missile which did not hit anything before it struck the Governor's
wrist?
Dr. OLIVIER. I don't believe so. I don't believe his wrist was struck
by a pristine bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the reason for your conclusion on that?
Dr. OLIVIER. In this case I go by the size of the entrance wound and
exit wound on the Governor's wrist. The entrance wound was on the
dorsal surface, it was described by the surgeon as being much larger
than the exit wound. He said he almost overlooked that on the volar
aspect of the wrist.
In every instance we had a larger exit wound than an entrance wound
firing with a pristine bullet apparently at the same angle at which it
entered and exited the Governor's wrist.
Also, and I don't believe they were mixed up on which was entrance and
exit. For one thing the clothing, you know, the surgeon found pieces
of clothing and the other thing the human anatomy is such that I don't
believe it would enter through the volar aspect and out the top.
So I am pretty sure that the Governor's wrist was not hit by a pristine
or a stable bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. What is there, in and of the nature of the smaller wound
of exit and larger wound of entrance in the Governor's wrist as
contrasted with a smaller wound of entrance and larger wound of exit in
854 and 855, which leads you to conclude that the Governor's wrist was
not struck by a pristine bullet?
Dr. OLIVIER. Do you want to repeat that question again?
Mr. SPECTER. What is there about the wound of entry or exit which led
you to think that the Governor's wrist wasn't struck by a pristine
bullet?
Dr. OLIVIER. Well, he would have had a larger exit wound than entrance
wound, which he did not.
Mr. SPECTER. And if the velocity of the missile is decreased, how does
that effect the nature of the wounds of entry and exit?
Dr. OLIVIER. If the velocity is decreased, if the bullet is still
stable, he still should have a larger exit wound than an entrance.
Now, on the other hand, to get a larger entrance wound and a smaller
exit wound, this indicates the bullet probably hit with very much of a
yaw. I mean, as this hole appeared in the velocity screen the bullet
either tumbling or striking sideways, this would have made a larger
entrance wound, lose considerable of its velocity in fracturing the
bone, and coming out at a very low velocity, made a smaller hole.
Mr. SPECTER. So the crucial factor would be the analysis that the
bullet was characterized with yaw at the time it struck?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Causing a larger wound of entry and a smaller wound of
exit?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.