The President's Commission reconvened at 3 p.m.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.
Mr. Specter, has the doctor been sworn yet?
Mr. SPECTER. No, sir; he has not.
The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, would you raise your right hand and be sworn,
please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in
the matter before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated.
Mr. SPECTER. State your full name for the record.
Dr. OLIVIER. Dr. Alfred G. Olivier.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?
Dr. OLIVIER. A supervisory research veterinarian and I work for the
Department of the Army at Edgewood Arsenal, Md.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the nature of your duties at that
arsenal, please?
Dr. OLIVIER. Investigating the wound ballistics of various bullets and
other military missiles.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the general nature of the tests which
are carried on at Edgewood Arsenal?
Dr. OLIVIER. For example, with a bullet we run tissue studies getting
the retardation of the bullet through the tissues, the penetration,
various characteristics of it. We use as good tissue simulant 20
percent gelatin. This has a drag coefficient of muscle tissue and makes
an excellent homogenous medium to study the action of the bullet.
We also use animal parts and parts of cadavers where necessary to
determine the characteristics of these things.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you set forth your educational background briefly,
please?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did 2 years of preveterinary work at the University
of New Hampshire and 4 years of veterinary school at the University of
Pennsylvania, and I hold a degree doctor of veterinary medicine at the
University of Pennsylvania.
Mr. SPECTER. In what year did you complete your educational work?
Dr. OLIVIER. 1953.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline your experience in the field subsequent
to 1953?
Dr. OLIVIER. In this field?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
Dr. OLIVIER. I came to Edgewood Arsenal, then the Army Chemical Center,
in 1957, and originally to work, take charge of the animal colonies but
immediately I got interested in the research and started working in
the field of wound ballistics and have been in it ever since, and am
presently Chief of the Wound Ballistics Branch.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you been in charge of a series of tests performed
to determine certain wound ballistics on circumstances analogous to
the underlying facts on wounds inflicted upon President Kennedy and
Governor Connally on November 22, 1963?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And in the course of those tests what weapon was used?
Dr. OLIVIER. It was identified as Commission Exhibit 139. It was a 6.5
mm. Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the designation, Commission Exhibit No. 139, appear on
the body of that rifle?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it did.
Mr. SPECTER. What type of bullets were used in the tests which you
performed?
Dr. OLIVIER. We used the Western ammunition, Western being a division
of Olin Industries, Winchester Western, it was lot 6,000 to 6.5 mm.
round. Has a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,160 feet per second.
Mr. SPECTER. And were those bullets obtained by you upon information
provided to you by the Commission's staff as to the identity of the
bullets which were believed to have been used during the assassination?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I first got the identity from the people at Aberdeen
Proving Grounds and then I further checked with the Commission to see
if that was right before ordering this type of ammunition.
Mr. SPECTER. And where were those bullets obtained from?
Dr. OLIVIER. I obtained 100 rounds from Remington at Bridgeport.
Conn., and Dr. Dziemian obtained another 160 rounds, I believe, from
Winchester in New Haven.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you perform certain tests to determine the wound
ballistics and include in that the penetration power of the
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, which you referred to, firing the Western
Cartridge Co. bullet by comparison with other types of bullets?
Dr. OLIVIER. We didn't fire any of the others at the same time. These
had been fired previously. We have all these records for comparison.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle then fired for comparison
purposes with the other bullets where you already had your experience?
Dr. OLIVIER. No; it was fired for the purposes for which--to try to
shed some light on say the factors leading to the assassination and
all, not for comparison with the other bullets.
Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph which is marked as Commission
Exhibit No. 844, may it please the Commission, and ask you if this
photograph was prepared by you in conjunction with the study on the
Mannlicher-Carcano and the Western Cartridge Co. bullet?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it was.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you explain to the Commission what that photograph
depicts?
Dr. OLIVIER. Actually, the bullet passed through two gelatin blocks.
This was done as part of an energy study to see the amount of energy
imparted to the block of gelatin taking a high-speed motion picture.
These blocks show a record of the permanent cavity left in the gelatin.
This is not necessarily the total penetration. This bullet when it
comes out of the second block still has quite a bit of penetrating
power. Quite a few of these bullets would go into a dirt bank and imbed
themselves so deeply that they couldn't be recovered.
Mr. SPECTER. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 845 which is a
photograph, and ask you to state for the record what that photograph
represents?
Dr. OLIVIER. This has been adopted as standard military ammunition of
the U.S. Army. It is known as the NATO round. It is M-80 ball fired
in the M-14 rifle. It has a different--it is a full jacketed military
bullet but has a different point, what they call a no jag point, a
sharp point. It has tumbling characteristics. When it goes in a certain
block it tumbles and does the same in the body. It is more efficient in
producing wounds than the bullet under study.
Mr. SPECTER. How do the impact, penetration, and other characteristics
of the bullet depicted in 845 compare with the Western Cartridge Co.
bullet fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano in 844?
Dr. OLIVIER. It has better wounding potential due to the quicker
tumbling but it would not have as good penetrating ability, when it
starts tumbling and releasing all that energy doing all that damage it
comes to a stop in a shorter distance.
Mr. SPECTER. Would the Western bullet be characterized as having the
qualities of a more stable bullet?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it would. You mean in the target?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. The stability in the air would be the same for any
missile, would it not?
Dr. OLIVIER. To be a good bullet they should be stable in air in order
to hit what you are aiming at, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Then would the characteristics of stability in the air be
the same for either of the two bullets you have heretofore referred to?
Dr. OLIVIER. Essentially so.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you photograph marked as Commission Exhibit No.
846 and ask you to state what that depicts?
Dr. OLIVIER. This is a 257 Winchester Roberts soft nose hunting bullet.
This one pictured fired from right to left instead of left to right
and the bullet didn't even go out of the block. It deforms almost
immediately on entering the block and releases its energy rather
rapidly. This type of ammunition is illegal for military use. We are
just studying the wounding characteristics of various bullets, but this
is not a military bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. How does it compare with the Western bullet?
Dr. OLIVIER. It would be better for wounding, better for hunting
purposes. But as I said, it isn't acceptable as a military bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. How does it compare with respect to penetration power?
Dr. OLIVIER. Much less than the Mannlicher-Carcano.
Mr. SPECTER. In the normal course of the work that you perform for
the U.S. Army at Edgewood Arsenal, do you have occasion to simulate
substances for testing purposes on determining the path of a bullet
through the human body?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; we do use animal tissues or gelatin as simulants for
tissues of the human body.
Mr. SPECTER. Has the autopsy report on President John F. Kennedy been
made available to you for your review?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it has.
Mr. SPECTER. And subsequent to your review of that report, did you
make an effort to simulate the body tissue through which the bullet is
reported to have passed through the President in accordance with the
report of the autopsy surgeon; entering on the rear of his neck, 14 cm.
below the mastoid process and 14 cm. to the left of the right acromion
process, passing through a fascia channel, striking the trachea and
exiting through the lower anterior of the neck?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. What substance did you prepare to simulate that portion of
the President's body?
Dr. OLIVIER. We determined the distance on various people by locating
this anatomical region and using people of various sizes we found that
regardless of general body build, the distance penetrated was around
13-1/2 to 14-1/2 cm.
As a consequence, I used gelatin blocks 20 percent gelatin cut at
13-1/2 cm. lengths and also used horsemeat and goatmeat placed in a
box so that--this was a little harder to get the exact length but that
varied between 13-1/2 and 14-1/2 cm. of muscle tissue.
Mr. SPECTER. Did that simulate, then, the portion of the President's
body through which the bullet is reported to have passed, as closely as
you could for your testing purposes?
Dr. OLIVIER. As closely as we could for these test purposes; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit
No. 847 and ask you to testify as to what that depicts?
Dr. OLIVIER. This is a box containing--I couldn't say looking at
it whether it is the horsemeat or the goatmeat but one of the two.
The distance traveled through that meat would be 13-1/2 to 14-1/2
centimeters. It is also covered with clothing and clipped goatskin
on the entrance and exit sides, and behind that are the screens for
measuring the exit velocity. We had already determined the striking
velocity by firing I believe it was--I have it right here if you
want----
Mr. SPECTER. Before you proceed to that, describe the type of screens
which are shown in the picture which were used to measure exit
velocity, if you please?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes. These screens are known as the break-type screen.
They are silver imprinted on paper and when the bullet passes through
it breaks the current. When it passes through the first screen it
breaks the current activating a chronograph, counting chronograph. When
it passes through the second screen it stops. This is over a known
distance, and so the time that it took to pass between the first and
the second will give you the average velocity halfway between the two
screens.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 848
and ask you to describe what that shows?
Dr. OLIVIER. This was a similar setup used for firing through gelatin.
It had clothing and skin over the entrance side only. If it had been
placed on the other side it would have just flown off.
Mr. SPECTER. And that is similar to that depicted in 846?
Dr. OLIVIER. Essentially; yes.