Dr. OLIVIER. Also at a reduced velocity because if it struck at
considerable yaw at a high velocity as it could do if it hit something
and deflected, it would have, it could make a larger wound of exit but
it would have been even a more severe wound than we had here. It would
have been very severe, could even amputate the wrist hitting at high
velocity sideways. We have to say this bullet was characterized by an
extreme amount of yaw and reduced velocity. How much reduced, I don't
know, but considerably reduced.
Mr. SPECTER. Does the greater damage, inflicted on the wrist in 854 and
855 than that which was inflicted on Governor Connally's wrist, have
any value as indicating whether Governor Connally's wrist was struck by
a pristine bullet?
Dr. OLIVIER. No; because holding the velocity the same or similar the
damage would be greater with a tumbling bullet than a pristine.
I think it reflects both instability and reduced velocity. You have
to show the two. I mean, the size of the entrance and exit are very
important. This shows that the thing was used when it struck. The
fact that there was no more damage than was done by a tumbling bullet
indicates the bullet at a reduced velocity. You have to put these two
things together.
Mr. SPECTER. Had Governor Connally's wrist been struck with a pristine
bullet without yaw, would more damage have been inflicted----
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Than was inflicted on the Governor's wrist?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. So then the lesser damage on the Governor's wrist in and
of itself indicates in your opinion----
Dr. OLIVIER. That it wasn't struck by a pristine bullet; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other conclusions which flow from the
experiments which you conducted on the wrist?
Dr. OLIVIER. We concluded that it wasn't struck by a pristine bullet.
Also drew the conclusion that it was struck by an unstable bullet, a
bullet at a much reduced velocity. The question that it brings up
in my mind is if the same bullet that struck the wrist had passed
through the Governor's chest, if the bullet that struck the Governor's
chest had not hit anything else would it have been reduced low enough
to do this, and I wonder, based on our work--it brings to mind the
possibility the same bullet that struck the President striking the
Governor would account for this more readily. I don't know, I don't
think you can ever say this, but it is a very good possibility, I think
more possible, more probable than not.
The CHAIRMAN. What is more probable than not, Doctor?
Dr. OLIVIER. In my mind at least, and I don't know the angles at which
the things went or anything, it seems to me more probable that the
bullet that hit the Governor's chest had already been slowed down
somewhat, in order to lose enough velocity to strike his wrist and do
no more damage than it did. I don't know how you would ever determine
it exactly. I think the best approach is to find out the angles of
flight, whether it is possible. But I have a feeling that it might have
been.
The CHAIRMAN. It might have been?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. The one that went through his chest went through his hand
also.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; and also through the President.
The CHAIRMAN. The first shot?
Dr. OLIVIER. Well, I don't know whether the first or second. The first
one could have missed. It could have been the second that hit both.
The CHAIRMAN. The one that went through his back and came out his
trachea?
Dr. OLIVIER. It could have hit the Governor in the chest and went
through because it had so little velocity after coming out of the wrist
that it barely penetrated the thigh.
The CHAIRMAN. May I ask one more question? Would you think, that the
same bullet could have done all three of those things?
Dr. OLIVIER. That same bullet was capable.
The CHAIRMAN. Gone through the President's back as it did, gone through
Governor Connally's chest as it did, and then through his hand as it
did?
Dr. OLIVIER. It was certainly capable of doing all that.
The CHAIRMAN. It was capable?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. The one shot?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Olivier, based on the descriptions of the wound on
the Governor's back, what in your opinion was the characteristic of the
bullet at the time it struck the Governor's back with respect to the
course of its flight?
Dr. OLIVIER. Let's say from the size of the wound as described by the
surgeon, it could have been tipped somewhat when it struck because that
is a fairly large wound. Another thing that could have done it is the
angle at which it hit. On the goat some of the wounds were larger than
others. On the goat material some of the wounds were larger than others
because of the angle at which it hit this material. The same thing
could happen on the Governor's back.
Mr. SPECTER. And how was that wound described with respect to its size?
Dr. OLIVIER. The Governor's wound?
Mr. SPECTER. On the Governor's back?
Dr. OLIVIER. About 3 centimeters at its largest dimension.
Mr. SPECTER. And would you have any view as to which factor was more
probable, as to whether it was a tangential strike on the Governor's
back, or whether there was yaw in the bullet at the time it struck the
Governor's back?
Dr. OLIVIER. I couldn't as far as being tangential. I couldn't answer
that, not knowing the position of the Governor. But it could have been
caused by a bullet yawing. I mean it would have made a larger wound, as
that was.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other cause which could account for that type
of a large wound on the Governor's back other than with the bullet
yawing?
Dr. OLIVIER. With this particular bullet those would be the two
probable causes of this wound of this size.
Mr. SPECTER. And those two probable causes are what?
Dr. OLIVIER. One, the bullet hitting not perpendicular to the surface
of the Governor, in other words, hitting tangential at a slight angle
on his back so that it came in cutting the skin. Another, the bullet
hitting that wasn't perpendicular to the surface as it hit. The bullet
did go along, the surgeon described the path as tangential but he is
speaking of along the rib. It isn't clear it was, as it struck, whether
it was a tangential shot or actually perpendicular to the Governor's
back.
Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to add one additional factor which Dr. Shaw
testified to during the course of the proceeding after he measured the
angle of decline through the Governor; and Dr. Shaw testified that
there was a 25° to 27° angle of declination measuring from front to
back on the Governor, taking into account the position of the wound on
the Governor's back and the position of the wound on the Governor's
chest below the right nipple.
Now with that factor, added to those which you already know, would
that enable you to form a conclusion as to whether the nature of the
wound on the Governor's back was caused by yaw of the bullet or by a
tangential strike?
Dr. OLIVIER. I don't think I would want to say. If I could have seen
the Governor's wound, this would have been a help.
Mr. SPECTER. Would the damage done to the Governor's wrist indicate
that a bullet which was fired approximately 160 to 250 feet away with
the muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, would it
indicate that the bullet was slowed up only by the passage through the
Governor's body, in the way which you know, or would it indicate that
there was some other factor which slowed up the bullet in addition?
Dr. OLIVIER. It would indicate there was some other factor that had
slowed up the bullet in addition.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your reason for that conclusion, sir?
Dr. OLIVIER. The amount of damage alone; striking that end it would have
caused more severe comminution as we found. You know--if it hadn't been
slowed up in some other fashion. At that range it still had a striking
velocity of 1,858 or in the vicinity of 1,800 feet per second, which is
capable of doing more damage than was done to the Governor's wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Had the same bullet which passed through the President, in
the way heretofore described for the record, then struck the Governor
as well, what effect would there have been in reducing its velocity as
a result of that course?
Dr. OLIVIER. You say the bullet first struck the President. In coming
out of the President's body it would have had a tendency to be slightly
unstable. In striking the Governor it would have lost more velocity in
his chest than if it had been a pristine bullet striking the Governor's
chest, so it would have exited from the Governor's chest I would say
at a considerably reduced velocity, probably with a good amount of yaw
or tumbling, and this would account for the type of wound that the
Governor did have in his wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. The approximate reduction in velocity on passage through
the goat was what, Doctor?
Dr. OLIVIER. The average velocity loss in the seven cases we did was 82
feet per second.
Mr. SPECTER. If the bullet had passed through the President prior to
the time it passed through the Governor, would you expect a larger loss
than 82 feet per second resulting from the passage through the body of
the Governor?
Dr. OLIVIER. I am not sure if I heard you correctly. This is if it hit
the Governor without hitting the President or hitting the President
first?
Mr. SPECTER. Let me rephrase it for you, Dr. Olivier.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; please.
Mr. SPECTER. You testified that the bullet lost 82 feet per second when
it passed through the goat.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now what would your expectations be as to the reduction in
velocity on a bullet which passed through the Governor, assuming that
it struck nothing first?
Dr. OLIVIER. It would be greater; the distance through the Governor's
chest would have been greater.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that be an appreciable or approximately the same?
Dr. OLIVIER. Can I bring in any other figures? Dr. Dziemian has
computed approximately what he thought it would have lost.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, of course, if you have any other figure which would
be helpful.
Dr. DZIEMIAN. I believe you misunderstood Mr. Specter. I think you
gave the figure for the loss of velocity through the Governor's wrist
instead of through his chest.
Dr. OLIVIER. I am sorry. We were on the wrist; okay.
Mr. SPECTER. Let me start again then. In an effort to draw some
conclusion about the reduction in velocity through the Governor's
chest, I am now going back and asking you what was the reduction in
velocity of the bullet which passed through the goat?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did misunderstand you. I am sorry. The loss in
velocity passing through the goat was 265 feet per second.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be the approximate loss in velocity of a
pristine bullet passing through the Governor?
Dr. OLIVIER. The loss would be somewhat greater.
Mr. SPECTER. How much greater in your opinion?
Dr. OLIVIER. Do you have that figure, Dr. Dziemian?
Dr. DZIEMIAN. I would say a pristine bullet of the Governor was about
half again thicker. It would be about half again as great velocity,
somewhere around 400.
Mr. SPECTER. Had the bullet passed through only the Governor, losing
velocity of 400 feet per second, would you have expected that the
damage inflicted on the Governor's wrist would have been about the same
as that inflicted on Governor Connally or greater?
Dr. OLIVIER. My feeling is it would have been greater.
Mr. SPECTER. Had the bullet passed through the President and then
struck Governor Connally, would it have lost velocity of 400 feet per
second in passing through Governor Connally or more?
Dr. OLIVIER. It would have lost more.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the reason for that?
Dr. OLIVIER. The bullet after passing through, say a dense medium, then
through air and then through another dense medium tends to be more
unstable, based on our past work. It appears to be that it would have
tumbled more readily and lost energy more rapidly. How much velocity it
would have lost, I couldn't say, but it would have lost more.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any indications from the internal wounds on
Governor Connally as to whether or not the bullet which entered his
body was an unstable bullet?
Dr. OLIVIER. The only thing that might give you an indication would be
the skin wound of entrance, the type of rib fracture and all that I
think could be accounted for by either type, because in our experiment
we simulated, although not to as great a degree, the damage wasn't as
severe, but I think it would be hard to say that.
One thing comes to my mind right now that might indicate it. There was
a greater flattening of the bullet in our experiments than there was
going through the Governor, which might indicate that it struck the rib
which did the flattening at a lower velocity. This is only a thought.
Mr. SPECTER. It struck the rib of the Governor?
Dr. OLIVIER. It struck the rib of the Governor at a lower velocity
because that bullet was less flattened than the bullet through the goat
material.
Mr. SPECTER. Based on the nature of the wound inflicted on the
Governor's wrist, and on the tests which you have conducted then, do
you have an opinion as to which is more probable on whether the bullet
passed through only the Governor's chest before striking his wrist, or
passed through the President first and then the Governor's chest before
striking the Governor's wrist?
Dr. OLIVIER. Will you say that again to make sure I have it?
Mr. SPECTER. [To the reporter.] Could you repeat that question, please?
(The question was read by the reporter.)
Dr. OLIVIER. You couldn't say exactly at all. My feeling is that it
would be more probable that it passed through the President first. At
least I think it is important to establish line of flight to try to
determine it.
Mr. SPECTER. Aside from the lines of flight, based on the factors which
were known to you from the medical point of view and from the tests
which you conducted, what would be the reason for the feeling which you
just expressed?
Dr. OLIVIER. Because I believe you would need that, I mean to account
for the damage to the wrist. I don't think you would have gotten a low
enough velocity upon reaching the wrist unless you had gone through the
President's body first.
Mr. SPECTER. The President's body as well as the Governor's body?
Dr. OLIVIER. As well as the Governor's.
Mr. SPECTER. Does the nature of the wound which was inflicted on
Governor Connally's thigh shed any light on this subject?
Dr. OLIVIER. This, to my mind, at least, merely indicates the bullet
at this time was about spent. In talking with doctor, I believe it was
Gregory, I don't think he did the operation on the thigh but at least
he saw the wound, and he said it was about the size of an eraser on a
lead pencil. This could be accounted for--and there was also this small
fragment of bullet in this thigh wound--this, to me, indicates that
this was a spent bullet that had gone through the wrist as the Governor
was sitting there, went through the wrist into his thigh, just partly
imbedded and then fell out and I believe this was the bullet that was
found on the stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any opinion as to the velocity of that
bullet at the time it struck the Governor's thigh?
Dr. OLIVIER. No. We didn't do any work to simulate this, but it would
have been at a very low velocity just to have gone in that far and drop
out again.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Olivier, in the regular course of your work for the
U.S. Army, do you have occasion to perform tests on reconstructed human
skulls to determine the effects of bullets on skulls?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I do.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you have occasion to conduct such a test in
connection with the series which you are now describing?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly the procedures for
simulating the human skull?
Dr. OLIVIER. Human skulls, we take these human skulls and they are
imbedded and filled with 20 percent gelatin. As I mentioned before, 20
percent gelatin is a pretty good simulant for body tissues.
They are in the moisture content. When I say 20 percent, it is 20
percent weight of the dry gelatin, 80 percent moisture.
The skull, the cranial cavity, is filled with this and the surface is
coated with a gelatin and then it is trimmed down to approximate the
thickness of the tissues overlying the skull, the soft tissues of the
head.
Mr. SPECTER. And at what distance were these tests performed?
Dr. OLIVIER. These tests were performed at a distance of 90 yards.
Mr. SPECTER. And what gun was used?
Dr. OLIVIER. It was a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano that was marked Commission
Exhibit 139.
Mr. SPECTER. What bullets were used?
Dr. OLIVIER. It was the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano Western
ammunition lot 6,000.
Mr. SPECTER. What did that examination or test, rather, disclose?
Dr. OLIVIER. It disclosed that the type of head wounds that the
President received could be done by this type of bullet. This surprised
me very much, because this type of a stable bullet I didn't think
would cause a massive head wound, I thought it would go through making
a small entrance and exit, but the bones of the skull are enough to
deform the end of this bullet causing it to expend a lot of energy and
blowing out the side of the skull or blowing out fragments of the skull.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a case containing bullet fragments marked
Commission Exhibit 857 and ask if you have ever seen those fragments
before.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And under what circumstances have you viewed those before,
please?
Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered
outside of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the
fragments without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in
here that were obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity
after the experiment. We melted the gelatin out and recovered the
smallest fragments from within the cranial cavity.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I show you two fragments designated as Commission
Exhibits 567 and 579 heretofore identified as having been found on the
front seat of the President's car on November 22, 1963, and ask you if
you have had an opportunity to examine those before.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to compare those to the
two fragments identified as Commission Exhibit 857?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did that comparison show?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar. These two fragments on, what is
the number?
Mr. SPECTER. 857.
Dr. OLIVIER. On 857 there isn't as much of the front part in this one,
but in other respects they are very similar.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 858
and ask you what that depicts.
Mr. DULLES. Could I see that other exhibit?
Dr. OLIVIER. These are the same fragments as marked 857.
Mr. SPECTER. That is a photograph of the fragments marked 857?
Dr. OLIVIER. 857.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 859
and ask you what that depicts?
Dr. OLIVIER. These are the smaller fragments that have been labeled,
also, Exhibit 857. This picture or some of the fragments labeled 857,
these are the smaller fragments contained in the same box.
Mr. SPECTER. Are all of the fragments on 859 contained within 857?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are supposed to be, photographed and placed in the
box. If they dropped out they are supposed to be all there.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. SPECTER. At what point on the skull did the bullet, which
fragmented into Commission Exhibit 857, strike?
Dr. OLIVIER. I would have to see the picture. I mean I can't remember
exactly what point. I can tell you the point we were aiming at and
approximately where it hit.
Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to make available a photograph to you, then, for
purposes of refreshing your recollection, and in testifying as to the
point which was struck, for that purpose.
Dr. OLIVIER. We did 10 skulls so I can't remember offhand where
everyone struck.
Mr. SPECTER. For that purpose I hand you Commission Exhibit 860 and ask
you if that is designated in any way to identify it.
Mr. DULLES. This is the test we are talking about now, is it?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; where the bullet fragmented into pieces in 857.
Mr. DULLES. Are you introducing that into evidence?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Have you already introduced it in the record?
Mr. SPECTER. May I at this point move for the admission into evidence
of Commission Exhibits 844 through 860, and they have been identified
in sequence as being the photographs, X-rays, and other tangible
exhibits used in connection with these tests.
Mr. DULLES. They shall be admitted.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 844 through 860 were received in evidence.)
Dr. OLIVIER. This photograph is the skull that was shot with the
bullet, the fragments which are marked 857.
Mr. SPECTER. At what point on the skull did the bullet strike?
Dr. OLIVIER. From this I couldn't tell you exactly the point. We were
aiming, as described in the autopsy report if I remember correctly the
point 2 centimeters to the right of the external occipital protuberance
and slightly above it. We placed a mark on the skull at that point,
according to the autopsy the bullet emerged through the superorbital
process, so we drew a line to give us the line of flight, put unclipped
goat hair over the back to simulate the scalp and put a mark on the
area which we wished to shoot.
Now, every shot didn't strike exactly where we wanted, but they all
struck in the back of the skull in the vicinity of our aiming point,
some maybe slightly above the external occipital protuberance. In some
cases very close to our aiming spot.
This particular skull blew out the right side in a manner very similar
to the wounds of the President, and if I remember correctly, it was
very close to the point at which we aimed.
In other words, a couple centimeters to the right.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any record which would be more specific on the
point of entrance?