manufacture and not construction.
MILCH: Agreed! We must write a letter to Keitel of the OKW and a letter
to Sauckel saying: Requests are to be made only directly to the
Jaegerstab.
* * * * *
PARTIAL TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NOKW-334[115]
PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 75
EXTRACT FROM TRANSCRIPT OF STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF
THE JAEGERSTAB CONFERENCE OF 25 APRIL 1944
* * * * *
[page 27]
WEGENER: I have a question for Schmelter: Has the question of the
_transfer of western Europeans_ been clarified?
WERNER: On this subject I can say that it is especially difficult for
BMW [Bavarian Motor Works], because we can only transfer Russians and
concentration camp inmates, and the guards for these are mainly Belgians
and French.
* * * * *
WEGENER: As far as I can remember, 200 key personnel are needed for
Markirch.
MILCH: Perhaps that must be brought before the Fuehrer again.
SCHAAF: Saur came back and said there was no more to be said on this
subject to the Fuehrer.
MILCH: That is out of date now. I have discussed with Saur the fact that
we cannot keep up this state of affairs. Saur is of my opinion. It must
be discussed once more with the Fuehrer. I can discuss it again with the
Reich Marshal. We shall do what we can, but we cannot throw everything
into confusion without due consideration. How should we then manage to
produce! I am convinced that the Fuehrer will agree as soon as we can
put these people reasonably into barracks so that they do not come into
contact with the population.
* * * * *
SCHAEDE: Whenever French key personnel are brought to Lorraine, they run
away without fail in a short time. This one must tell the firm. Already
they do not come back from leave.
MILCH: It will only work if we put these workers into barracks. We
cannot exactly treat them as prisoners. It must appear otherwise, but it
must be so in practice.
* * * * *
MILCH: I am personally convinced after talking to the Fuehrer that he
will agree as soon as it is made reasonable. The people should not be
able to mingle with the population and to conspire. Nor should they be
allowed to run around free, so that they can cross the frontier every
day. Both practices must be stopped.
* * * * *
HEYNE: I have two short points. Yesterday Maehrisch-Truebau was removed
from the program because the Quartermaster General told me the previous
night that it was possible to move in on the morning of 28 April. The
matter is already progressing. Last night I was called up again because
the Chief of Prisoners of War Affairs did not quite agree with the new
accommodation in Brunswick of the prisoners from Maehrisch-Truebau for
some reasons of security.
I should like to ask Major Kleber, who was also yesterday announced as
Mr. Saur’s liaison officer with the OKW, to exert some pressure here.
Apart from that, General Schmidt said that there were also some fighter
units and suchlike in the barracks; that he could not move out as
quickly as that; he would not take orders; otherwise he would go to the
Reich Marshal.
MILCH: I am of the opinion that that must be done at once. It’s all the
same to me if individual people do object. Protest does not interest me
at all, whether from the Chief of Prisoners of War Affairs or from our
side.
Kleber, would you be so good as to take care of this?
KLEBER: As far as prisoners of war are concerned I can take care of it,
but not where it concerns the air force. That must be handled
separately.
MILCH: Naturally. This matter must be handled by us. There was in fact,
another proposal but we do not want it. Otherwise someone else will come
complaining.
KLEBER: I should like to transfer the prisoners further off to
Brunswick.
MILCH: I think it is an excellent idea for the prisoners to go there if
Brunswick continues to be attacked.
* * * * *
SAUR: I must come back again to the question of _western European
workers_. Make an energetic attempt to make a _compromise within the
factories_. I think it will work out. I do not think the Fuehrer will
give in even if we put the French into barracks. He has spoken so firmly
and for reasons which I cannot but recognize. I am all the more thankful
that permission has been given for the Protectorate. I am going to see
State Minister Frank on Friday and I shall discuss with him the whole
question of dispersal in the Protectorate. I shall like Schmelter to
accompany me to Prague on Friday to discuss the question of transfer of
workers.
MILCH: I said before that we wanted to carry out the transfer within the
factories. Then if something is left over, we should have to approach
the Fuehrer again, but only on condition that they are in barracks and
that there are replacements for them.
* * * * *
PARTIAL TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NOKW-362
PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 75
EXTRACTS FROM TRANSCRIPT OF STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF
JAEGERSTAB CONFERENCE ON THE OCCASION OF THE 5TH
TRIP OF THE “HUBERTUS UNDERTAKING”, 2 AND 3 MAY 1944
* * * * *
[Page 65]
MILCH: * * * I also ask that every time the civilian population is
attacked [Translator’s note: by low-flying aircraft], in private cars,
on [rail] roads, etc., the local offices make reports accordingly. The
Fuehrer has ordered extremely severe measures against these enemy crews
who harass the civilian population. There is not the slightest military
necessity for this and the Fuehrer intends absolutely to act according
to the Japanese pattern. (Enthusiastic applause!) We must only take
cases individually so that we have the necessary material and can
produce it. We owe that to our boys who are prisoners over there, who
will be held as hostages unless we have proper proof.
* * * * *
[Page 110]
SCHNAUDER: * * *
1. At the Heinkel factory at Barth there are 3,300 workers, consisting
of 300 Germans and 3,000 concentration camp inmates. Of the 3,000
concentration camp inmates, 1,500 are men. In order to maintain their
working capacity it is necessary to evacuate these men too during
daylight air attacks. However, there are not enough guards and sometimes
there is a deficit of as many as 20. As guards cannot be drawn from any
other source, it has been decided that the factory is to arm as guards
certain men from its own ranks to guard the concentration camp inmates.
* * *
* * * * *
PARTIAL TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NOKW-390
PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 75
EXTRACT FROM TRANSCRIPT OF STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF
THE JAEGERSTAB CONFERENCE OF 4 MAY 1944
* * * * *
SAUR: 12. Can the arrival of the reported 50,000 Italians be relied on?
By what date will the first transport arrive? This wording is, frankly,
unintelligible. It was quite clear that the 50,000 Italians were coming
so that the transport facilities were guaranteed long ago. How did such
a report get into the minutes of 14 April?
(Comment: The camps into which these people are to go don’t even
exist yet!)
We shan’t get any further like this! Inform Mr. Schmelter.
FIELD MARSHAL MILCH: Are they coming via Sauckel?
SAUR: No. This is our own undertaking. Pueckel has clarified various
doubtful points with Nagel and got ready a large number of vehicles and
now all that comes to nothing. Schmelter must report on it tomorrow, not
in the sense of whether it can be done, but that this and that must be
done, and by such and such means.
* * * * *
PARTIAL TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NOKW-442[116]
PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 75
EXTRACT FROM TRANSCRIPT OF STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF
THE JAEGERSTAB CONFERENCE ON 5 MAY 1944
* * * * *
SCHMELTER: Then the transport of the Italians. 50,000 Italians have not
yet been transported. It was due to the fact that the escort for the
transport has not yet been appointed. The conversation yesterday with
the Plenipotentiary in Milan proved that the transport should leave
today for this place Woerl (?) [sic] where further distribution will be
undertaken. I booked another call this morning but did not get through.
I hope to be able to give more details tomorrow.
MILCH: Has a proper reception center been set up in Woerl?
(SCHMELTER: Yes.)
Is it assured that the number of those leaving is in reasonable
proportion to those arriving? * * *: [sic] That shall be. A man has been
appointed by Schmelter to travel down there especially and control
directly the conscription of civilians.
MILCH: Is there someone at the Escort Detachment Headquarters in Italy
responsible for seeing that people do not get out and run away during
the journey?
* * * [sic] That is what the escorting personnel is there for.
(MILCH: Someone of standing?)
Dr. Wendt is responsible for the whole undertaking.
MILCH: I am of the opinion that, if anyone jumps out, he should be shot;
otherwise a thousand will get on and only twenty will arrive there. The
Gendarmerie and all military posts must look out for those who abscond
on the journey. They will be arrested at once and will appear before a
court martial.
(End of meeting 1225 hours).
PARTIAL TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NOKW-361
PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 75
EXTRACT FROM TRANSCRIPT OF STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF
THE JAEGERSTAB CONFERENCE DURING THE 6TH JOURNEY
OF THE “HUBERTUS UNDERTAKING” FROM 8-10 MAY 1944
* * * * *
GABEL: We must have 1,000 underground workers at once.
SAUR: Definitely.
BORNITZ: The Erzberg [ore mine] has, furthermore, a loss of from 1,400
to 1,500 men per annum due to climatic conditions. It goes up as high as
1,500 meters.
SAUR: Do you give the men up systematically, and to whom?
BORNITZ: Not systematically. They collapse, report sick, and the
foreigners do not come back. Some escape too, as in the mountain country
it is not possible to seal everything hermetically.
(Comment: A year ago the labor potential of a large concentration camp
was thoroughly gone into. That possibility must not be entirely
disregarded).
GABEL: Careful! Concentration camp internees are not strong enough to be
able to work underground.
* * * * *
PARTIAL TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NOKW-336[117]
PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 75
EXTRACTS FROM TRANSCRIPT OF STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF
THE JAEGERSTAB CONFERENCE ON 26 MAY 1944
* * * * *
[Page 31-32]
REICH MINISTER SPEER: With regard to construction it is important that
we should not start more building than we can supply labor and equipment
for. Equipment is of secondary importance. We must not continue with the
mistakes we found in the air force armament industry when we took over,
i.e., the beginning of no end of buildings for which, at that time, only
20 to 30 percent of the necessary labor was available.
SAUR: That is the case now unfortunately. We have at least 3 times as
many buildings under construction as we have labor available.
REICH MINISTER SPEER: What is the news about the Hungarian Jews?
KAMMLER: They are on the way. At the end of the month the first
transports will arrive for surface work on the surface bunkers.
* * * * *
[Page 33]
SCHLEMPP: * * * Dorsch said yesterday that he wanted to bring 100,000
Jews from Hungary, 50,000 Italians, 10,000 men from bomb damage repair,
also 1,000 from Waldbroehl (?) [sic]; then he wanted to get something
from Greiser’s zone by negotiation, then 4,000 Italian officers, 10,000
men from South Russia and 20,000 from North Russia. That would be
220,000 altogether.
REICH MINISTER SPEER: We have often made such calculations; but the
people never came.
* * * * *
[Page 34]
KAMMLER: For all these measures [Translator’s note: A and B construction
measures which were the responsibility of the SS], I must take in 50,000
more people in protective custody [Schutzhaeftlinge].
* * * * *
[Page 43]
REICH MINISTER SPEER: We shall carry out a special operation
[Sondereinsatz] of our own in order to build up reserves of manpower
[Schwerpunkte]. It will bring in 90,000 men in three installments of
30,000.
* * * * *
It will be experts who are called up. And it would be a good thing if
one linked up with it the conscription of tool makers within the firms
so that one would have a body of tool makers in the armament industry.
These people would get leave from this group and would function as armed
forces employees. If we make them armed forces employees we have the
advantage of being independent of Sauckel’s offices.
* * * * *
[Page 80]
FIELD MARSHAL MILCH: How long do the Italian PW’s actually work here?
SCHMELTER: As long as the factory works. There is a regulation that PW’s
must work so long.
FIELD MARSHAL MILCH: Could you not look into this? You can see people on
the streets about 4 or 5 o’clock and nobody after that.
(SCHMELTER: I can look into it!)
I do not believe that any Italian prisoner of war works 72 hours.
* * * * *
[Page 81]
SCHMELTER: * * * Dorsch will accompany me to Greiser to try and get 20
to 30 thousand men out of him.
REICH MINISTER SPEER: Kammler had his doubts about that before.
REPRESENTATIVE OF KAMMLER: He didn’t think the 100,000 Jews would come.
SCHMELTER: To that I can add the following. Till now two transports have
arrived at the SS camp Auschwitz. For fighter construction we were
offered only children, women, and old men with whom very little can be
done. * * * Unless the next transports bring men of an age fit for work
the whole action will not have much success.
* * * * *
PARTIAL TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NOKW-359
PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 75
EXTRACTS FROM TRANSCRIPT OF STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF
THE JAEGERSTAB CONFERENCE ON 27 JUNE 1944
* * * * *
[Page 27]
SCHMELTER: I have another small point to bring up. I said once before
that we had fairly large numbers of English and American “Terror Flyers”
in air force camps, who cannot be used. It is a matter, in all, of about
17,000 people, approximately half officers and NCO’s who do not need to
work. That means that there are 6 to 9 thousand men in camps who just
sit about doing nothing. The suggestion that they should be put to work
has now been turned down on the grounds that it concerns especially
intelligent people trained in collecting information and, apart from
that, inclined to acts of sabotage.
SAUR: Can we put them into the manufacture of component parts?
LANGE: Perhaps we can employ them in underground factories.
SAUR: We could employ them in the manufacture of component parts. Who is
responsible for this matter?
KRAUSE: The Commission for Prisoners of War; it comes under the
Quartermaster General.
SAUR: Will you undertake to put this matter in order? These people must
be put at the disposal of the component parts industry. That would be an
unbelievable help to us.
SCHMELTER: It must be laid down that these people _all_ go into fighter
production or into the component parts industry. Otherwise a part will
be sent off elsewhere. The people in question are excellent people, good
material.
* * * * *
[Page 31]
SCHMELTER: I have a few more points. Up till now 12,000 female
concentration camp internees, Jewesses, have been demanded. The matter
is now in order. The SS has agreed to deliver these Hungarian Jewesses
in batches of 500. Thus the smaller firms, too, will be in a position to
employ these concentration camp Jewesses better. I request that these
people should be ordered in batches of 500.
MAHNKE: How many are still there?
SCHMELTER: There are still enough there.
* * * * *
TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NOKW-320
PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 73
EXTRACT FROM INTERROGATION OF KARL OTTO SAUR ON
13 NOVEMBER 1946, CONCERNING THE USE OF CONCENTRATION
CAMP PRISONERS IN JAEGERSTAB CONSTRUCTION
Q. Were special factories built after the creation of the Jaegerstab?
A. All building of factories above the ground was stopped, and
subterranean factories were built. We divided approximately 30 factories
into 700 individual workshops to avoid offering targets for attacks.
Q. What kind of workers were used for this construction?
A. The construction was divided into three parts: the two Kammler parts,
(_a_) new construction underground, and (_b_) expansion underground, and
the Todt Organization part.
Q. This expansion program was directed by Kammler,[118] then?
A. Parts (_a_) and (_b_) were directed quite independently by Kammler.
He had full authority from Goering as of 4 March 1944 and was then made
a member of the Jaegerstab. * * * The whole affair was carried out by
Kammler alone.
Q. And the workers who were used for this purpose were concentration
camp prisoners?
A. To my knowledge, they must have been concentration camp prisoners.
TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NOKW-266
PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 76
AFFIDAVIT OF FRITZ SCHMELTER, 19 NOVEMBER 1946,
CONCERNING THE ORGANIZATION OF THE JAEGERSTAB
I, Fritz Schmelter, swear, testify, and state:
1. That, since about January 1944 until April 1945, I held, in
the end, the office of Ministerialdirigent in the Ministry for
Armament and War Production (Ministry Speer); that as
Ministerialdirigent I was in charge of the Division for Labor
Assignment, and from December 1944 until April 1945 of the
Central Department for Labor Assignment and Labor Output, and
that, as a holder of these positions I was also a member of the
Jaegerstab.
2. That Milch and Speer together were in charge of the
Jaegerstab; that Saur was the Chief of Staff and was, in this
capacity, the immediate subordinate of Milch and Speer.
3. That during its existence the Jaegerstab met almost every day
and that these meetings were presided over in most cases by
Milch, in the beginning, and later on by Saur; that Speer was
very rarely present and only on special occasions; that these
meetings took place, first, in the Reich Air Ministry and after
this was destroyed in the barrack at Tempelhof.
4. That in the meetings of the Jaegerstab the supply of labor
for the Luftwaffe was discussed; that, for the Jaegerstab, the
labor requirements necessary to the industry of the Luftwaffe
were discussed with the Plenipotentiary for Labor Allocation
(Ministry Sauckel); that Sauckel satisfied these requirements as
far as possible; that the Chief of Staff, in the Jaegerstab,
Saur occasionally also distributed the available labor to the
different Luftwaffe plants.
5. That in the year of 1944 the air raids made it necessary to
decentralize many of the plants of the Luftwaffe; that this
decentralization was ordered by the Jaegerstab; that many
factories of the Luftwaffe were transferred into subterranean
buildings and that for the completion of these subterranean
buildings concentration camp inmates and Jews were also used;
that the whole building program of the Jaegerstab was
established and controlled by this Jaegerstab itself.
6. That the above facts are personally known to me; that these
facts are known to me on account of the position I held and the
responsibility it gave me in the Jaegerstab and in the Ministry
Speer.
I have read the above statement which consists of two pages in German,
and I state that this is the full truth, to the best of my knowledge and
belief. I have had the opportunity to make changes and corrections in
the above statements. I have given this testimony voluntarily, without
any promise of reward and without being, in any way, forced or
threatened.
Nuernberg, 19 November 1946.
[Signed] DR. FRITZ SCHMELTER
TRANSLATION OF SPEER EXHIBIT 34[119]
DEFENSE EXHIBIT 17
ORDER OF HITLER, 21 APRIL 1944, DELEGATING TO DORSCH
AUTHORITY FOR JAEGERSTAB CONSTRUCTIONS[120]
Copy
The Fuehrer
Fuehrer’s Headquarters
21 April 1944
To the Reich Minister for Armament and War Production and
Head of the Todt Organization, Reich Minister Speer
Berlin W 8
I delegate Ministerialdirektor Dorsch, Chief of the Todt Central Office,
to carry out the erection of the six fighter production buildings
ordered by me, while retaining his other functions in your sphere of
work.
You are to be responsible for taking care of all the prerequisites
necessary for the speedy erection of these buildings. You are
particularly to effect the best possible coordination with the other
war-essential buildings, if necessary referring to me for a decision.
[Signed] ADOLF HITLER
PARTIAL TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NOKW-337[121]
DEFENSE EXHIBIT 12
EXCERPTS FROM THE STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF THE
JAEGERSTAB CONFERENCE ON 6 MARCH 1944
IN THE REICH AIR MINISTRY[122]
* * * * *
SAUR: I see a great many unknown faces and I do not know what business
all these gentlemen have here. I suggest that a check be made at the
door and that the showing of passes be mandatory. Otherwise there is
danger that other people may sneak in here. I demand therefore a
stricter control under all circumstances. Furthermore I would ask that
gentlemen remain at meetings only as long and no longer as their
business makes it necessary. I would therefore request that each
gentleman report his presence and state whether he has any matters of
general interest. These things could then be taken up first and that
would settle that and the man could leave. We only want one gentleman
for one subject, not a whole bunch of them.
* * * * *
SAUR: Does the term “construction company”[123] exist at all? I think it
does not exist.
DIESING: We have construction companies with the Luftwaffe, among them
masons, slaters, window fitters, etc. That is how we arrived at the term
“construction company”. We cannot again withdraw the six construction
companies which we have taken from Berlin. For each building site we
need approximately 100 skilled people, this on the basis of a fixed
distribution key and we do not know where to get them.
* * * * *
MILCH: Now we come to the question of foreign exchange. Here the Fuehrer
has announced his consent that the requests of the Slovaks to purchase
antiaircraft guns, etc., be complied with. Saur has reported orally how
many antiaircraft guns have actually been finished and how far we have
exceeded the program. This is a good and acceptable method for us.
We have furthermore approached the Fuehrer in order to obtain the 64
miners, at present employed at Berchtesgaden, since the work there
should soon be finished. He said that we, like the SS, should train
miners on a larger scale too, and named the figure of 10,000 to be
trained in successive shifts because one cannot train them all at the
same time.
SAUR: The gentlemen of the SS should be told of this, that the entire
training of miners is supposed to be done by the SS because the SS has
the best school for that.
MILCH: Furthermore we must ask the SS to get hold of further miners from
Italy and Slovakia.
SAUR: Barowski (?) [sic] must know that! This question must be cleared
up at once, today, in order to agree on the selection with the SS.
* * * * *
PARTIAL TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NOKW-338[124]
DEFENSE EXHIBIT 13
EXCERPTS FROM THE STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF THE
JAEGERSTAB CONFERENCE PRESIDED OVER BY FIELD MARSHAL
MILCH ON FRIDAY, 17 MARCH 1944, 1100 HOURS,
IN THE REICH AIR MINISTRY[125]
* * * * *
[Page 13]
STOBBE-DETHLEFFSEN:[126] Probably you have not understood me quite
correctly. When I asked this question, I did not have in mind the
projects of 600,000 and 800,000 square meters,
(SAUR: But I did!)
but the original 60,000 square meter works. I now ask: shall these
60,000 square meter works now be simply cancelled in consideration of
the big works, and are they no longer to be taken into consideration?
This seems hazardous to me because we must make the following
distinction. The construction capacity of underground works in mountains
and caves is entirely different from the one to be reckoned with at such
concrete works. It is available for concrete works and consequently it
should be used. It was not as if we had to go into caves or worm
ourselves into the mountain. The question of the big works is a very
difficult one for us from the point of view of capacity. It alone
requires another 25,000 workers. We reckon already now 100,000 men for
the tasks of the Jaegerstab. To switch to some other work would
constitute an inroad of unheard of proportions into the remaining
armament economy.[127]
(SAUR: 100,000 without Kammler!)
Including the manpower we give Kammler, but without the people from
concentration camps!
* * * * *
MILCH: We have been ordered to carry out these two construction projects
by the Fuehrer. If I now take a higher compression ratio and thus attain
much higher figures, even this higher figure would not prevent us from
having to deal with further shifting afterwards, besides concrete works
and cave works, smaller caves, tunnels, etc. It is now doubtless correct
to ascertain: (1) What has to be constructed, (2) for whom it has to be
constructed, (3) where it has to be constructed. We have to distribute
it in such a way that we can efficiently cope with manpower and all the
other questions, power, transportation, etc.
* * * * *
PARTIAL TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NOKW-365
DEFENSE EXHIBIT 15
EXTRACT FROM THE STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF THE
JAEGERSTAB CONFERENCE, 12 APRIL 1944
_STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF THE JAEGERSTAB CONFERENCE_
_PRESIDED OVER BY HAUPTDIENSTLEITER_
_SAUR, LATER ON PRESIDED OVER BY FIELD_
_MARSHAL MILCH, ON WEDNESDAY, 12 APRIL_
_1944, 10 O’CLOCK IN THE REICH AIR MINISTRY_
* * * * *
SAUR: Please tell this to Schmelter. We are in an incredible situation
as a result of lack of manpower. Here we are in the middle of the month
already, and the 10,000 people allocated to us according to red slips
have not arrived yet. A way must be found to assure priority for
red-slip matters over all other allocations. Tell Herr Schmelter to
contact Gauleiter Sauckel today. Going further than that, the
discontinuation, transfer, or concentration of every other type of
production must be brought about by us at once.
SCHAAF: The 4,000 people from Kahla!
LANGE: Schmelter’s people complain particularly because they have no
means of making pressure demands to Sauckel which will also be complied
with.
SAUR: Field Marshal, the best thing would be for you to approach Sauckel
yourself since he is the man in charge of labor allocation.
MILCH: I shall tell him that the 10,000 red slips were not honored.
BALCKE: On that I can report that the requests were sent out on the 5th
and that on the 11th they had not yet reached the labor offices. The way
is long, it is true. Therefore it is not yet possible for the people to
be employed.
* * * * *
PARTIAL TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NOKW-334[128]
DEFENSE EXHIBIT 16
EXTRACTS FROM THE STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF THE
JAEGERSTAB CONFERENCE, 25 APRIL 1944
_STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF THE JAEGERSTAB CONFERENCE_
_OF 25 APRIL 1944, 10 O’CLOCK IN THE_
_REICH AIR MINISTRY_
_PRESIDED OVER BY FIELD MARSHAL MILCH_
Herr Saur does not appear until towards the end of the meeting.
* * * * *
WEGENER: I have a question for Schmelter: Has the question of the
_transfer of west European workers_ been settled?
WERNER: On this I can say that especially for the Bavarian Motor Works
matters are particularly difficult because we can transfer only Russians
and concentration camp inmates, and the staff used for supervision
consists mostly of Belgians and Frenchmen.
* * * * *
KREUTZ: Mueller declared at one time—and he believed he could do
it—that he would try and shift a part of the head personnel within the
concern.
SCHAEDE: If you bring the French key personnel to Lorraine, I can
guarantee you that they would run away within the shortest possible
time. That must be told to the firm. Even now they do not return from
their vacation.
MILCH: It will work only if we place these people into barracks. It is
true we cannot treat them as prisoners of war; the outward appearance
must be different, but in actual practice that is just what it must be.
SCHAEDE: I merely wanted to suggest to the firms to take along as few
French people as possible so that they would not lose them altogether,
and rather follow the system of Mueller.
MILCH: Exactly. And if then there are still some left one can say that
this will be limited in terms of time, perhaps to several months, and
that in return certain advantages will be granted to them because they
will be subject to certain deprivation of their freedom.
* * * * *
MILCH: As early as today at noon, we may face the situation that
Bavarian Motor Works at Allach is completely destroyed and that we have
to get out. Then we cannot deal with things such as 200 or 300 French
people who cannot come to Lorraine. That must be explained to the
Fuehrer once more. Otherwise, I see no possibility for carrying through
our assignment.
Personally, I am firmly convinced—after the conversations with the
Fuehrer—that he will then consent provided it is done in a sensible
way. The people must not sit together with the population and they must
not be able to conspire. Nor should they have sufficient freedom of
movement to be able to pass the green border line. Both of these things
must be prevented.
In compensation for these restrictions we can, on the other hand, give
these people something and make them happy—be it even only cigarettes.
* * * * *
PARTIAL TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NOKW-442[129]
DEFENSE EXHIBIT 21
EXTRACT FROM THE STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF THE
JAEGERSTAB CONFERENCE, 5 MAY 1944
_THE STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF THE JAEGERSTAB_
_CONFERENCE ON FRIDAY, 5 MAY 1944, 10 O’CLOCK_
_IN THE REICH AIR MINISTRY_
* * * * *
SCHMELTER: I was supposed to report on the employment of labor in the
penal institutions.[130] The Minister of Justice has not yet forwarded
the complete list of workers available in the penal institutions. I have
made another inquiry. Dr. Schmelter (?) [sic] has appointed Attorney
Karl as special official in charge. He is the liaison to the Reich
Ministry of Justice. * * *
HEYNE: Such conversations have taken place. They do not get us anywhere.
The thing we need is a listing of all localities showing how large a
number of prisoners are yet available there. Then we must see whether
they are required there. Herr Schmelter planned to concentrate the
skilled workers in those spots. There are only 2-3 percent skilled
workers in all among all prisoners. That is too little.
MILCH: I suggest you are going to submit to me today a letter to
Thierack, to wit: Taking into consideration the extraordinary urgency of
the work in connection with the Jaegerstab we need this assistance. We
have failed for a long time unfortunately to obtain the compilation from
the authorities concerned. We need such and such data. I ask him to
concern himself personally with the matter and to let us have the
material in the very near future.
* * * * *
PARTIAL TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NOKW-336[131]
DEFENSE EXHIBIT 23
EXCERPTS FROM THE STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES OF THE
JAEGERSTAB CONFERENCE ON FRIDAY, 26 MAY 1944,
AT 10 O’CLOCK
* * * * *
(Minister Speer and Field Marshal Milch entering.)
MILCH: I welcome our Minister Speer for the first time in the circle of
the Jaegerstab, and would like to express my special happiness and at
the same time yours, that you, dear Speer, are again with us, well,
cheerful, and in the old creative spirit.
This machinery, created by your orders, accomplished excellent things in
the three months of its existence. It has made special efforts to bring
the production of fighters and all that goes with them to a high level.
* * * * *
SCHMELTER: The reports of the board of examiners show that a larger
number could be deducted from the plants belonging to the Luftwaffe if
one succeeds in establishing joint direction for the department of plane
construction, the technical plant groups and companies. Up to now they
exist separately under three different commands and leaderships, and
that would make it possible to deduct more workers. The board of
examiners thinks that hundreds of laborers could be deducted if a single
command would be established. This must be done by Field Marshal Milch.
MILCH: The Quartermaster General to whom all are subordinate! No one is
subordinate to me.
* * * * *
(SCHMELTER: Probably they will work in plants where people do
not work for 72 hours.)
Isn’t it possible—to avoid injustice toward our workers—to have our
other plants work too, not all of them for 72 hours, but perhaps up to
64 hours? That should suffice if all would do it.
SCHMELTER: I prepared already for the conference of the chiefs of the
various offices the suggestion that working hours in civilian production
should be increased. There are still many production plants working only
48 hours.
MILCH: Then one can equalize and we need not work all the time for 72
hours.
* * * * *
EXTRACTS OF TESTIMONY OF DEFENSE WITNESS FRITZ SCHMELTER[132]
_DIRECT EXAMINATION_
[Tr. pp. 717-734]
DR. BERGOLD: Witness, will you give us your first name and your last
name?
WITNESS SCHMELTER: Fritz Schmelter.
Q. When were you born?
A. On the first of March 1904.
Q. What was your position at the end of the war?
A. At the end of the war, I was Central Department Manager at the
Ministry of Armament.
* * * * *
Q. Thank you. Witness, when and in what position did you have to do
official business with the defendant?
A. I had some dealings with him on official business after 1944 when I
became Chief of the Amtsgruppeneinsatz in the Ministry of Armament. I
saw him again after the Jaegerstab was formed, that is, after March
1944.
Q. In your position in the Ministry of Armament, did you have anything
to do with the Central Planning Board?
A. I had something to do with them insofar as the chief of staff of the
armament office was concerned. He was my chief. I had to write down the
necessary figures concerning labor assignments when I accompanied him to
certain sessions of the Central Planning Board as assistant.
Q. What month was that, approximately?
A. As far as I can remember the first session in which I participated
was in February or March 1944. I did not always participate in these
sessions, only in a few of them when I accompanied the man I mentioned
before.
Q. Did the sessions of February and March 1944 deal with labor
assignments?
A. Yes.
Q. During these conferences, were they trying to clear the numbers or
the figures which were announced by Sauckel?
A. In one of the conferences I remember they wanted to make Sauckel a
proposal concerning the distribution of labor he wanted to provide. I
remember that the Central Planning Board had a written proposal
submitted to him concerning requests about labor assignments. Sauckel
said that he would acknowledge this proposal but would take care of the
distribution personally.
Q. Did they, during these sessions, try to find out whether the numbers
and figures Sauckel reported were correct? If he mentioned figures which
were too high, did they speak about those matters in this conference?
A. I do not remember that day. But I know that in various conferences
the question of reliability of the figures played a great part. There
was always a difference between the figures Sauckel reported and those
Speer reported.
Q. Did this apply to figures which Sauckel mentioned as having already
been brought in or did it apply to figures on labor still to come?
A. That applied particularly to the numbers of laborers who had already
been brought. It was not possible to try to control the number of
laborers wanted because it was only something that was being planned,
nothing else.
Q. That is correct, but from previous experiences, weren’t they in a
position to find out that Sauckel’s promises were not being kept?
A. At the time they doubted that the figures which Sauckel reported
could ever be brought in.
* * * * *
Q. Is it correct that in your position, as a member of the Speer
ministry, or in your capacity as a member of the Todt Organization, you
very often participated in the staff meetings of Sauckel?
A. Every month Sauckel would call such a staff meeting where
representatives of the most important labor assignment ministries took
part. I almost always participated in those meetings.
Q. What other ministries apart from the Ministry of Armaments
participated in those conferences?
A. The Air Ministry, the OKW, the Ministry of Economics, the
Agricultural Ministry, and I do not think I can remember anything
further.
* * * * *
Q. Did the defendant Milch ever participate in those sessions?
A. No. Those were conferences in which the experts of the ministries
took part; not the leaders and not their representatives, either.
Q. Who was the chief of the Air Ministry?
A. Goering.
Q. At these staff conferences, did Sauckel ever make any statements
saying he brought the laborers voluntarily to the Reich?
A. I remember that Sauckel repeatedly said approximately the following:
“They say that I am forcing laborers to come to Germany. Once
somebody said I went to foreign countries with a lasso and
caught people and brought them over to Germany. They said I
forced them to come to Germany.”
Furthermore, he said:
“I declare all those things are not true. The laborers are
brought to Germany by me on the basis of contracts with other
governments, as far as there are governments in those occupied
territories, or on the orders of the local military commanders
or other local German agencies.”
He asked us to tell our superiors his opinion on that question.
* * * * *
Q. Is it known to you that there was an agreement with the French
Government according to which one prisoner of war would be released to
France for two laborers.
A. Yes.
Q. Is it known to you that the French workers during their activity in
Germany got leave once in a while?
A. Yes.
Q. A leave to France?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they ever return from their leave or did they just stay there?
A. The greater part came back from their leave; quite a number did not
come back. Part of the laborers who went on leave did not come back.
Some of them came back.
Q. Was that the larger part that came back or the smaller part?
A. I did not hear any figures concerning that. As far as I know the
greatest of them came back. According to the factory manager, the larger
part always came back, but of course I have no exact figures.
* * * * *
Q. Witness, you then joined the Jaegerstab. Do you know anything about
the creation of the Jaegerstab?
A. Approximately on the first of March, I do not remember the exact
date, I was asked by my chief of staff to go to the Air Ministry where
Milch and Mr. Saur were present. He said the air armament was so badly
damaged by the air raids that there had to be a fighter program. For
that purpose a staff needed to be developed to hold daily conferences
which would be necessary in order to increase the fighter production or
at least bring it to the same level that it used to be. A number of
gentlemen from air as well as from the armament industry were designated
to participate in these sessions and to report to their offices what had
taken place and put orders into effect.
As a representative of the Armament Ministry, I was assigned to labor
assignment. Later on I heard that this Jaegerstab was under the
management of Speer and Milch and that Saur was the manager of the
Jaegerstab. Later on there were conferences almost daily, first at the
Air Ministry and later on at a barracks at the Tempelhof, near Berlin.
They dealt, first of all, with the production of the fighters and with
all the questions in connection with the fighters and also with labor
assignment.
Q. Who directed these conferences?
A. At the beginning Milch participated almost regularly in those
sessions and he was the one that actually led or presided over the
conferences; formally, that is, Mr. Saur was the speaker most of the
time. Mr. Speer very seldom, according to my recollection perhaps three
of four times, participated in those sessions, which on those particular
days were transferred to the Armament Ministry.
Q. You just said that Milch at the beginning had the formal leadership.
From what time on did that cease?
A. After the transfer into the Armament Ministry, or rather, into the
Caserne at Tempelhof—I don’t remember the date—Milch did not
participate as regularly as he did before. At those conferences, after
the transfer of the fighter staff into the Armament Ministry, he only
participated once or never.
* * * * *
Q. Witness, concerning the conferences of the staff, there were always
verbatim records taken. Is that known to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Apart from those minutes, were any other minutes taken?
A. Yes. An extract of the verbatim record—I want to call it a “result
record”—was compiled and these records were sent to all of the offices
which were interested in those conferences. Those verbatim records which
were taken down by stenographers during the session, according to my
knowledge, were sent only to Mr. Speer, and of course they remained with
both Saur and Milch. In other words, very few copies were made.
Q. Were these verbatim records ever controlled?
A. No, I don’t think so. I don’t believe that the large records were
read or checked by someone else.
Q. Can one say then that the decisions of the Jaegerstab were contained
in the records?
A. Not only the decisions but also the more important deliberations that
took place. However, when decisions were made, then they were included
in the result records.
Q. During these conferences did it ever occur that the participants were
not always present?
A. That happened very often because the sessions lasted for a long time
and it happened many times that I, for instance, was called out and
ordered to take care of my business, at least by telephone, and the
members of the Jaegerstab themselves did not always participate in the
conferences, but later on—that is, from May on—they had
representatives or deputies replace them.
Q. Did those sessions often result in individual discussions?
A. That happened once in a while, particularly when technical questions
were discussed where very few experts could say something.
Q. I shall now proceed to the labor assignment within the Jaegerstab.
How did the Jaegerstab deal with questions of labor assignment?
A. Along with all the production discussions of other programs, labor
assignment questions were discussed at the sessions of the Jaegerstab. I
had the task, concerning these labor assignment questions, to pass them
through my office chief and so far as the tasks I had with the
Jaegerstab overlapped my other duties and tasks with other
organizations; in other words, if you want to know exactly or if you
want to have a detailed description of what my tasks were in general—
Q. I want to know what you had to do with the labor assignment of the
Jaegerstab and what was your main task there; otherwise, we will be here
about an hour or so.
A. Among other things, we had the task, on the basis of the reports of
the various factories which came over the Armament Inspectorates to me,
to write up a proposal how those red slips were to be distributed on
each individual production. In the Jaegerstab, I also had the task to
distribute those red slips in such a way that the most important
factories would get the necessary number of red slips. The red slips
were orders to the labor assignment offices or agencies of Speer; in
other words, to the Armament Inspectorates and to the armament
commandos, and were given from Sauckel to his labor assignment agencies
which were to provide preferentially the necessary amount of workers on
the basis of those red slips. I furthermore had the task to take care of
transfers of laborers who already were in the armament industry by
giving respective orders to my agency and requesting Sauckel to carry
out the transfer. Since in the fighter production, the question, in the
first place, concerned skilled workers only; transfers of this kind were
carried out. Skilled workers were no longer assigned to us by Sauckel in
1944. My main activity, therefore, concerned transfers from one of the
industries to the other, and as regards the Jaegerstab, in transfers
from the destroyed bomber factories or from other aircraft types to the
fighter factories which were working full time.
I finally had the task to deal with deliveries of armament to the
Wehrmacht soldiers and I had to take care of those. In 1944, through
several actions, many laborers were withdrawn from the armament industry
and delivered to the army. That concerned particularly skilled workers.
It was my task then, together with those responsible for the production,
to take care of the distribution in such a manner that the armament
industry be hampered as little as possible in their production.
Q. Is it known to you that Milch tried to see to it that no one from the
fighter factories had to go to the Wehrmacht?
A. Yes, from all the factories, and particularly from the fighter
factories, they tried to send as few laborers as possible to the army.
At the beginning, in the early days of the Jaegerstab—in other words,
in the months of March and April, approximately—we tried to relieve the
fighter program from delivering laborers to the Wehrmacht. Later on,
this was very difficult. I know, however, that Milch tried his very best
to give as few people as possible to the Wehrmacht from Jaegerstab
production, that is, of the Jaegerstab factories.
Q. Witness, you just said that, concerning the request for assignment of
workers, you made suggestions to Sauckel. In these meetings there is a
statement by Saur that says, “We take care of the labor assignment.”
What is correct now? Did you just request them or did the Jaegerstab
actually take care of the assignment?
A. The Jaegerstab was not able to give orders to offices which did not
belong to the Speer Ministry or to the Air Ministry. In Jaegerstab, very
often Saur and perhaps Milch—I can’t remember, concerning Milch—used
such words. In reality, however, it was quite different. I appeared at
Sauckel’s and I was ordered to tell him about the creation of the
Jaegerstab and its importance concerning the fighter production, with
the request that when labor was distributed, the Jaegerstab production
should be considered in first place. An order to Sauckel was never given
by me and I am sure that Sauckel would certainly not have followed my
request, particularly as he always and repeatedly stressed the point
that he was independent and was responsible only to the leader of the
Four Year Plan and Hitler.
Q. When Saur made such a statement, “We take care of the labor
assignment,” why do you think he said that?
A. Well, once in a while such strong words were used. I never took this
statement very seriously and I didn’t react to it because I knew exactly
that nothing would happen afterwards, and nothing really happened. I was
sure that the labor assignment should have been taken care of by the
Jaegerstab, but it was impossible to take care of that for one single
production. Everyone who had something to do with labor assignment could
understand that.
Q. Witness, you just spoke concerning boasting remarks. Is it known to
you that Milch often used such strongly exaggerated boasting remarks
during these meetings?
A. I don’t remember single statements made by Milch but I am sure that
they occurred. What I wanted to say now is that it appeared to me that
Milch very often, particularly concerning the industry and his own
generals, wanted to boast in order to play the strong man. I believe,
however, that these statements did not always make the impression he
wished to create.
Q. Do you mean to say that they were not taken seriously?
A. Well, not quite seriously, anyway.
Q. Were you present during the conference of the Jaegerstab where Milch
made a long speech to the air force engineers and the quartermaster
chiefs?
A. I was there part of the time. I remember now. That was the session
which took place in the Air Ministry—there were 100 people there at the
time, and I have to remind you of the fact that I wasn’t present during
all those conferences.
* * * * *
Q. Witness, the prosecution introduced a document during the trial where
Goering gives Himmler a fighter group in exchange for the use of
concentration camp inmates which were put at the disposal of the air
force armament. Do you know anything about that?
A. What fighter group do you mean?
Q. I mean a squadron—a whole squadron was placed at the disposal of the
SS, and Goering wanted to have concentration camp inmates from the SS.
Do you remember anything about that? It was on the 15th of February
1944.
A. I can’t remember that exactly. Goering, that is the Luftwaffe, put a
great number of soldiers at his disposal for immediate production. They
got their leave. But if there ever was such an exchange of concentration
camp inmates, I do not know today anymore. It could be possible;
however, I can’t tell for sure.
Q. Witness, is it known to you that in the Jaegerstab they were often
transferred from the construction sector of the Plenipotentiary for
chemistry?
A. No. In any case, I don’t know that this was done to a considerable
extent. It is possible that it also was said during my presence that the
Plenipotentiary for chemical industry had too many workers in the
construction sector and a few of them had to be transferred; lots of
complaints were made. However, I can’t remember anything concrete.
Q. Witness, can you remember that Milch tried to be able to free certain
engineers from Hitler who were working in Berchtesgaden?
A. I believe I can remember that. The question of engineers was
discussed very often because this was a big bottleneck in the
construction sector. I remember also that, concerning the construction
works in Berchtesgaden, it was discussed in this connection and that one
hoped to be able to get not only engineers but other skilled workers
from the construction works carried out in Berchtesgaden for Hitler.
* * * * *
Q. Witness, is it known to you that the use of concentration camp
inmates was carried out in closed groups?
A. Yes, as far as the SS used concentration camp inmates, outside of
their own factories, this was obviously only done in larger groups of
about 500 to 1,000.
Q. Is it possible that during constructions a few miners or engineers
were concentration camp inmates?
A. When the rest of the workers were not concentration camp inmates,
then, according to the regulations of the SS, personally, I don’t
believe that there were certain concentration camp inmates in there, and
I don’t know of any such cases. I know that the SS always required that
the concentration camp inmates be taken in large numbers and that they
should be assigned in groups and billeted in groups.
Q. In other words, is it possible that the SS also used people of their
own as miners, apart from those concentration camp inmates?
A. I couldn’t tell you, because I did not know the situation with the
SS. However, that is possible.
* * * * *
Q. The question was: If the SS ever used miners from their own ranks and
if they trained them?
A. No. I don’t know anything about that either.
Q. Do you know if the SS had a miners’ school?
A. No. I don’t know that either. I never heard of any miners’ school.
The miners learned by experience.
* * * * *
[Tr. pp. 743-759]
Q. What do you know about labor utilization of English and American
prisoners of war? That is to say, Americans and British who were
captured in Germany?
A. In 1944, that is to say, in my time, no new prisoners of war were
used because we didn’t capture any more. So far as I know, British and
American prisoners of war were not used in armament factories.
Repeatedly, proposals in this direction were made also in the case of
noncoms and officers. In the case of officers—it was Polish officers,
if I recall, no change in the regulations was made, so far as I recall.
Instructions were transmitted to the OKW, but I do not know if anything
came of them.
Q. I come now to your two sworn affidavits of 19 November 1946;
Prosecution Exhibit 76 is a sworn affidavit of yours of that date.
NOKW-266, dated 19 November, * * *.
* * * * *
Q. Did you know that in 1944, in order to protect the aircraft industry,
underground and protected factories were built?
A. Yes.
Q. You know who gave the original order for this?
A. So far as I know, the order for this relocation of industries in
subterranean plants was given by the Jaegerstab itself. I was not
competent in this matter, but naturally I took part in the discussion of
the Jaegerstab and heard it there. I heard that it was decided that a
bombed-out factory should be relocated to a different place which the
Jaegerstab would determine.
Q. That’s no answer to my question. Witness, I asked: Who gave the
original order for the construction of these subterranean factories? Do
you know that?
A. If I may repeat; you want to know who ordered in the first place that
these plants should be transferred to subterranean factories? That I do
not know.
Q. Do you know Herr Kammler?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know from whom he received the order to construct these
special subterranean factories?
A. Here again I do not know precisely who gave him the original order.
In any event, at the first beginning of the Jaegerstab, Kammler became a
member and was commissioned to undertake the construction of
subterranean buildings for Jaegerstab protection. The Jaegerstab pointed
out to him individual objectives and he reported from time to time how
many square meters were now ready. But who first originally gave these
orders to Kammler, whether it was Himmler or Hitler or some agreement or
something like that, I don’t know.
Q. Was Kammler commissioned into the Jaegerstab because of an order of
Himmler or because of some special order elsewhere?
A. I am not able to say. I assume that Himmler also gave him an order.
The individual orders, what he was to build, he received from the
Jaegerstab.
* * * * *
Q. Did Kammler, within the Jaegerstab, represent Himmler?
A. I do not know his powers or his functions and I cannot say. He was in
the construction sector. That I know, but Himmler had charge of more
things than construction.
* * * * *
PRESIDING JUDGE TOMS: Will you try to answer these questions as simply
and briefly as you can? Were Russian prisoners of war used in the
armament industry?
WITNESS SCHMELTER: In the armaments plant Russian prisoners of war were
also employed. At what they were employed, I do not know, since they
were already there when I came and I did not myself inspect the plants.
Q. Did you ever see Russian prisoners of war either manufacturing or
transporting munitions of war?
A. In plants and in transports? No. Neither in plants nor in transports
did I see Russian prisoners of war.
Q. That question is perfectly clear and you understand it?
A. I shall repeat it. I was asked whether these prisoners of war
worked—whether I saw them in plants or in transport.
Q. That’s right.
A. And I answered in the negative.
Q. Were Russian prisoners of war used in the decentralization of the
Luftwaffe after the heavy bombings?
A. Not that I know of. So far as I know, after the heavy bombings
Russian prisoners of war were no longer available. They had already been
assigned elsewhere. I do know that after the heavy bombings, that is, in
the year 1944, new Russian prisoners of war were not used in armaments
or in the bombed out factories. It is, of course, possible that the
local labor offices used Russian prisoners of war for this purpose, but
we in the central offices knew nothing of this.
Q. Will you answer the same questions as to Polish prisoners of war?
A. So far as I know, Polish prisoners of war consisted solely of
officers. Only officers were available. The others had been freed. The
officers, however, in contradiction to many wishes that were expressed,
were not used. At least if they were, I know nothing of it.
Q. Will you answer the same questions as to Hungarian Jews?
A. Hungarian Jews, among other things, were used in the construction of
fighters—fighter planes. Female Hungarian Jews were also used in the
actual construction of fighter planes.
Q. Were they voluntary workers?
A. No. Those were inmates of concentration camps, prisoners at the
disposal of the SS.
Q. So the Hungarian Jews who were employed in the manufacture of fighter
planes were forced to work in that connection?
A. The Hungarian Jews, so far as I recall, were offered by the SS to be
employed in armament production. At first there were 1,000 of them or
500 who were employed. Then a number of plants said that they wanted
such workers and they were then allotted by the SS to these plants and
there they were obliged to work.
Q. Then the SS, which was one branch of the German military
establishment simply dealt out the Hungarian Jews to anybody who needed
them?
A. No. The Hungarian Jews, like all concentration camp inmates, were
housed in camps that were either in or near the plants and which were
constructed by the SS. They were then taken to work every day, and after
the work they were again brought back by the SS to the camps. Also, the
supervision of the work, for security reasons, was carried out by the
SS. So far as the technical side of it was concerned, it was carried out
by the representatives of the plant.
Q. Of course you don’t claim they were paid for their work?
A. That I do not know. I only know the general regulations concerning
concentration camp prisoners, and I know them in part. I know that these
prisoners, at least toward the end, also received some sort of wages.
What the payment was, I do not know. I do know that the plant had to
give the SS a certain amount for each prisoner, but what the prisoner
himself received, I do not know.
Q. Do you know whether these Hungarian Jews worked through any contract
with a foreign government, as was the case in France?
A. Let me repeat the question whether Hungarian Jews worked on the basis
of an agreement with a foreign power—foreign government. Was that the
question?
Q. Yes.
A. Not that I know of.
Q. I have no other questions. One more question please. You said that
you know that Russian prisoners of war were working in the armament
factories but you didn’t know what kind of work they were doing.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever see them in any of the factories?
A. No.
Q. What do you think they were doing?
A. I guess some of them were engaged in construction. So far as skilled
workers were concerned they were certainly working at tasks that they
were qualified to do. So far as they were unskilled workers they might
have been doing almost anything.
Q. If they were working in munitions factories they were doing something
to manufacture munitions, were they not?
A. If they worked in munitions factories then they must, of course, have
had something to do with manufacturing munitions. Even if they only
worked in the courtyard, or something like that, they still had
something to do with the manufacture of munitions.
* * * * *
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Witness, did you ever know of any prisoners of war,
especially Russians, being used to man antiaircraft guns?
A. In the construction or in the use of the antiaircraft?
Q. In the use of antiaircraft.
A. Yes, I have heard of that. I heard that Russian prisoners of war were
used to man antiaircraft guns of that sort.
Q. Do you have any idea how many were used for that purpose?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. Did you ever see them being used for that purpose?
A. No.
Q. On what fronts were they used?
A. I believe they were used on the home front, not on the actual battle
front, but that is simply my opinion.
Q. Against American planes, British planes, and Russian planes?
A. They shot at whatever planes were over Germany.
* * * * *
DR. BERGOLD: Witness, you spoke of female Jews. When were these female
Jews employed?
A. I do not know the precise date. It was the summer of 1944. In my
estimation, it must have been May.
Q. Let me show you Document NOKW-359, Prosecution Exhibit 75. It is the
next to the last document of the prosecution, Stenographic Minutes of
the Jaegerstab Meeting of 27 June 1944. You said: “I have a few more
points. Up until now 12,000 female concentration camp internees,
Jewesses, have been demanded. The matter is now in order. The SS has
agreed to deliver these Hungarian Jewesses in batches of 500. Thus the
smaller firms, too, will be in a better position to employ these
concentration camp Jewesses. I request that these people should be
ordered in batches of 500.”
Is this the point from when onward these females were used?
A. Yes. It must have been about this time. The difficulty was the
following: The SS demanded that the females should be delivered in
batches of thousands only. Most factories could not use such a large
number of females. Consequently, the SS was asked if it could not
deliver them in smaller groups. That is the reason.
Q. Witness, is there a difference between the concept of
“Ruestungsfabrik”, which means armament factory, and “Munitionsfabrik”,
which means a munitions factory? Is there a difference in Germany?
A. “Ruestungsfabrik” took care of all sorts of armament production,
materials, finishing up the deliveries and so on and so forth.
“Munitionsfabrik” is the narrower concept and contents itself with the
manufacture of munitions only.
Q. Did the “Munitionsfabrik” belong inside the concept of
“Luftruestung”, air armament?
A. So far as the “Luftruestung” is concerned, they did, yes. The
limitation of these concepts was not, however, uniform. Unfortunately,
we had very few uniform concepts. They were often misused.
Q. Were factories that made sheet metal and so on, armament factories?
Did they fall under the concept of armaments?
A. They did, yes.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you.
* * * * *
_CROSS-EXAMINATION_
MR. DENNEY: In one of these interrogations, on 30 December 1946, you
were asked what the Jaegerstab did to bring workers from Hungary into
Germany; do you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall that you made reference to certain trips of the
Jaegerstab to Hungary?
A. Yes.
Q. You made this statement: “The Jaegerstab, during its existence, made
at least a total of 10 to 12 trips”?
A. Yes.
* * * * *
Q. All right. You were asked this question: “Who was in charge of these
trips?” And your answer was: “So far as I remember, it was Milch. Milch
participated in most trips of the Jaegerstab.”
A. In most of them, yes.
Q. In the same interrogation on 30 December, the record indicates that
you made this statement: “I know about 100,000 workers from Hungary;
however, these were Jews who were allocated to construction. I know
nothing about 8,000 workers who evidently were skilled workers, intended
for the fighter production program.”
A. Yes.
Q. You were then asked: “Is it known to you that these 100,000 Jews were
used by Todt in the interests of the Jaegerstab?” and you made the
following answer: “Yes, that is known to me.”
A. Yes.
Q. You were interrogated on 24 January and asked this question: “Do you
know whether the Luftwaffe, in the Luftwaffe industry, used
concentration camp prisoners, not in the building program, but for
production?” and your answer was: “I don’t know. I don’t think so,
except for women. The SS once offered us a lot of women. The difficulty
was that, at first, at least 1,000 and later 500 were to be employed.
Various firms got women after that, and I think that Heinkel, in
Oranienburg, used concentration camp prisoners, not only women, but all
the inmates.”
A. Yes.
Q. The answer was yes, if your Honor please. And Heinkel was an airplane
factory, was it not, producing the Heinkel plane?
A. Yes.
Q. On November 15, of last year, you were asked if you knew that Himmler
used concentration camp inmates for the underground buildings of the
Jaegerstab, and your answer: “Yes. You mean the finished buildings, do
you not?” And then you were asked: “The underground ones, the completion
of the existing caverns or tunnels, or the like, where concentration
camp inmates were employed?” and your answer: “Yes.”
A. Yes.
Q. And you were also asked: “Were these constructions built in the
interest of the Luftwaffe?” Your answer: “These new constructions? Yes.”
A. Yes.
Q. The next question: “Exclusively in the interest of the Luftwaffe? And
did the orders for the new constructions come from the Jaegerstab?”
Answer: “Whether other constructions were also built there? Probably,
yes.” Question: “I am only interested in the Luftwaffe.” Answer: “Also
for the Luftwaffe. I do not know whether for others. I would not like to
pin myself down.”
A. Yes.
Q. Later you were asked: “Do you know that prisoners of war were at all
employed in air armament?” and you stated: “Yes, I should like to say,
the armament plants. The air armament also employed prisoners of war in
its plants.”
A. Yes.
* * * * *
Q. In reply to a question: “What was Field Marshal Milch’s position in
the Jaegerstab?” you stated, “There were two chairmen in the Jaegerstab,
Speer and Milch. In the first session, or rather in most of the
sessions, Milch participated personally; Speer did not. Speer was
present only in exceptional cases. In his position, Saur, who was at the
same time manager, initiated the contact with the rest of the armament
industry. Milch was Chief of the Jaegerstab, besides Speer.”
A. Yes.
Q. In the same interrogation of 15 November you made the following
statement: “Assignment of labor was involved in every question including
every question of production.”
A. Yes.
Q. On 26 November you made the following statement when you were
interrogated: “Mobilization of manpower as a matter which is closely
connected with production was very much discussed. Everybody had a word
to say, had a request for something and they suggested or said I could
do better, etc.”
A. Yes.
* * * * *
_REDIRECT EXAMINATION_
DR. BERGOLD: Witness, as to the trip to Hungary, were you present when
the committee went to Hungary?
A. No, I traveled only as far as Prague and returned.
Q. Do you know the purpose of this trip to Hungary?
A. Not precisely. I know that there was a question of production to take
place in Hungary, but precise information I do not have.
Q. Do you know that there was a definite contract with Hungary?
A. I heard about that subsequently.
Q. Did you then hear that this trip had the purpose of bringing
Hungarian Jews to Germany?
A. No.
Q. Thank you. The prosecutor spoke to you of 100,000 Jews. Did you know
that these were to be used by Mr. Dorsch?
A. Yes.
Q. And, as far as the tasks that he had, mainly for the construction of
bombproof factories?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether the Jaegerstab ordered these 100,000 Jews or
whether somebody else did?
A. The employment of these 100,000 Jews in this construction
organization took place on Hitler’s orders. I, myself, was not present
at this discussion. Dorsch, however, was present and told me that Hitler
had ordered—had said Himmler had 100,000 Jews for bombproof factories
and was to make them available.
Q. Do you know whether and in what number and when these Jews arrived to
carry out this construction work?
A. I do not know precisely the dates. It was in the summer of 1944. Nor
do I know whether all of them arrived. Once I concerned myself with the
question regarding the guarding of these people. At that time the SS did
not have enough guard personnel and Hitler ordered Keitel to provide
10,000 soldiers which were to be withdrawn from the eastern front and to
make them available to the SS so that they, the SS, would have the
necessary guard personnel. Thereafter, I heard nothing further about the
matter and assumed that the Jews for the most part were employed. I
deduced this from the fact that I otherwise should have heard of it
probably.
Q. I discussed just yesterday with you whether these buildings were
ordered by the Jaegerstab. I do not need to return to that question.
Were these constructions used exclusively by the Jaegerstab or for other
advantages, such as armored cars?
A. Originally they were exclusively planned for fighter construction but
I do recall that, as time went on, there were also discussions of using
them for other manufacture, for instance, tanks, and this construction
was to take place in these buildings. Since, however, I had nothing to
do with this professionally, I can only report on this from hearsay. In
other words, I know nothing precisely.
Q. The prosecutor quoted to you a statement of yours from an
interrogation; I shall ask you now did you make the statement in the
interrogation that Milch was responsible in air armament to seek out
workers individually?
A. I don’t know how I should understand the word “seek out”; if you mean
that he went to foreign countries and searched for them personally, then
of course that is wrong. I did state in that interrogation that during
my activity in the Jaegerstab in March 1944 no individual actions in
foreign countries were carried out by Milch or the Jaegerstab. The
manpower was provided by Sauckel exclusively, or to the extent that they
were prisoners by the SS, or prisoners of war by the Wehrmacht.
Q. And then they were transferred, as you said yesterday, to other
sectors?
A. Yes.
Q. You also said in this interrogation that in most of the meetings
Milch was present.
A. At the beginning, I said.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions.
EXTRACTS OF TESTIMONY OF DEFENSE WITNESS XAVER DORSCH[133]
_DIRECT EXAMINATION_
[Tr. p. 1361-1379]
DR. BERGOLD: Please state to the Court your first and last name?
WITNESS DORSCH: Xaver Dorsch.
Q. When were you born?
A. 28 December 1899.
Q. What was your last position in the German Reich?
A. I was Deputy Chief of the Todt Organization, in the Speer Ministry.
Q. On the 28th of December 1946 you signed an affidavit?
A. Yes, sir.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, this is Document NOKW-447, Prosecution Exhibit
74.
Q. Witness, you made the following statement:
“As deputy of Minister Speer in his capacity as Chief of the Todt
Organization, I received from Hitler, at the end of April 1944, an order
to construct with the Todt Organization six bombproof fighter factories,
of which two should have priority.” Can you tell me about the history of
this construction?
A. Yes, but I must go into detail.
Q. Proceed.
A. Approximately eight months before this date, I made a suggestion to
Minister Speer about how bombproof fighter factories above ground could
be built, in this way, not only to secure manufacture, but also so that
they would be more secure against bomb damage while being built.
The source was that the Todt Organization in France was doing a similar
construction job as a launching site for V-2 bombs. Speer told me that I
should take the plans with me on my next visit to the Fuehrer’s
Headquarters, and two weeks later I was with Speer, visiting Hitler, and
after other matters had been discussed, and before going, Speer
mentioned this matter and Hitler said: “We must absolutely achieve
bombproof aircraft factories because there is danger that transportation
might be attacked, and then we cannot make up the time we have lost.”
Hitler wanted large-size, big scale units, in which planes and fighters
could be protected from the beginning to the end, because he saw a
danger in the fact that transportation could be attacked and
interrupted, and then the different parts, if they were made in various
factories, could not be assembled.
He said that he imagined the matter roughly as follows: In narrow
mountain valleys in Saxonian Switzerland, for example, caves could be
dug which would provide these bombproof factory installations. Then
Speer said, “Dorsch or the Todt Organization has another suggestion.”
Speer said that, and I then submitted to him my plans for the special
Todt Organization construction, which, as I said, had already been built
in France, and I also pointed out to him that such factories, even as
they were being built, were relatively safe against bomb attack.
This was roughly eight months before this date in April on which this
commission of which I spoke in my affidavit was given to me. Hitler said
to me that it was a matter of indifference to him according to what
system these things were built, but that it was important to him that
something really serious should be done.
On the next day there was a discussion on the same theme with Goering.
Speer’s representative Dethleffsen, as Plenipotentiary for construction
matters, and the leader of the main committee for construction,
Gaertner, were present. I had to explain again the thought behind this
special construction which I was proposing. Goering was enthusiastic and
said that that was the solution and that the Todt Organization should
begin immediately with that construction. Thereupon Speer said, “The
Todt Organization cannot build these factories because it builds only
outside the Reich, with the exception of the Ruhr district, and in the
Reich itself the Main Committee for Construction should carry out the
construction,” and for that reason, he had called the two gentlemen I
mentioned above. Goering also said that it was indifferent to him who
built the factories, that the important thing was that they should be
built soon.
In April of 1944, I was visiting Speer near Meran when a call came that
I should immediately go to Hitler. Speer asked me if I had any idea what
was afoot, but I did not. I immediately went to Berchtesgaden. There
Hitler asked me, “What has become of your fighter production?” I told
him that I did not know precisely, because in the Reich the Todt
Organization did not do the constructing but another organization. He
was greatly excited and said roughly, that he had heard enough about
this other organization, that he did not want it, and he demanded that
the Todt Organization should take over that construction immediately.
Then the plans were fetched overnight from Berlin. I explained the whole
system to him once more. I told him that I could only carry out this
construction if it were given priority above all other construction as
far as workers, machines, building materials, trucks, and so
on—whatever is needed in construction—were concerned. I was given
assurances that that priority would be given me, and I then took over
this construction project.
I was able to assure myself that the Hauptausschuss Bau—the Main
Committee for Construction—which had been in charge before I took over
had begun constructions at three locations. On one of these we
immediately stopped work, because both architecturally and, as the
Jaegerstab told me, technically the factory was no good.
Q. Witness, you then said that the wish to build these bombproof fighter
factories by the Todt Organization was communicated to you by the
Jaegerstab. What do you know about that personally?
A. I know the following: The Jaegerstab, as far as the entire work of
the Plenipotentiary for construction was concerned, was not satisfied
with the work. Saur complained continuously about how work dragged on
and asked me repeatedly to step in and do something. He called me to his
meetings in the Jaegerstab and asked me to develop further plans. I was
called up continuously by other gentlemen. I remember Major Dr. Krohmer,
who also asked me to step in, and again and again I had to say that that
would not do because, I said the Todt Organization did not carry out
construction in the Reich. I was pressed continuously by the Jaegerstab,
because it was the organization that would benefit from these
constructions.
Q. Do you know whether Milch went in that direction too, or only Saur?
A. That I cannot say. I did not speak about that to him myself. I did
speak with Saur and a few other gentlemen—I believe with Schlempp who
was later representative of the Todt Organization in the Jaegerstab.
Q. When was that first pressure on the part of Saur? Was that before
March of 1944?
A. Yes. That was even earlier, but I cannot say precisely. It might have
been in February even.
Q. Do you know whether Saur visited the Fuehrer on this matter?
A. I was not present, but I assumed that it must have been so. I cannot
prove it, however.
Q. So. This afternoon you told me what you thought Milch’s function was
in the Jaegerstab. You used a rather striking expression. Would you like
to repeat it here?
A. I called him “the breakfast director”. I ask the defendant to pardon
the expression. He shouldn’t hold it against me.
Q. What do you mean by this “breakfast director”?
A. Well, it is sort of difficult for me to tell that.
Q. Milch won’t be angry.
A. Well, I only saw him at a Jaegerstab meeting once, when he invited me
and when he asked for the support of the Todt Organization. He explained
to me the general situation. He told me what his worries and troubles
were, but the real work, the whole functioning of the thing, I don’t
believe he concerned himself with. That is why I used the expression
“breakfast director,” but perhaps that was a little exaggerated.
Q. I quite understand. After the end of April 1944, when you were
commissioned with these construction matters, what did you do?
A. As I told Hitler very exactly, I took Todt Organization units from
France and from the Atlantic Wall.
Q. How many were there?
A. 2,000 or 3,000—I cannot remember.
Q. Your affidavit says 10,000.
A. No, that is incorrect. That cannot have been the number in France.
The second time that I went to the Plenipotentiary General for
chemistry, Prof. Krauch, and told him of the serious situation, and I
finally brought him to the point of giving me 15,000 workers from his
department.
Q. What workers were those?
A. First of all, in the Baltic States—that was a Todt Organization
itself—I took away most of the German workers, and took some elsewhere
as additional workers, engineers, experts of one sort or another,
machinists. Then came the attack on Leuna on the 10th or 12th of May
1944. That was on the occasion of the first attack on Leuna. I had a
talk with Hitler at that time. He said, “This cannot be tolerated—that,
at the very moment when we are so in need of oil, workers are taken away
from Leuna”.
I then answered him that, first of all, I had undertaken this measure
before the air attack, and secondly, it was not a question of cutting
down on oil production, but of oil capacity. Hitler took over and said,
“No, that cannot be”. Then Speer said, “If we don’t get the workers, we
can’t do the building”. Hitler said, “Quiet down, you will get 50,000
Italians,” and then I said, “I don’t believe that”, and I said that for
the following reasons: We, the Todt Organization, had such workers from
Italy for the construction program Riese in Silesia, but we did not do
this via Sauckel but by applying to Italian firms to take over
construction commissions in Germany, and then they automatically brought
their workers, their directors and architects, and so on, with them
particularly after we had assured them that we with our
organization—that is to say, with the Todt Organization in Italy—would
take care of paying wages, paying for the hospitalization fees,
insurance, and so on, but at the moment when workers were fetched by
Sauckel, I understood clearly that workers such as we needed would not
be provided in any considerable numbers. At any rate, I told Hitler, “I
do not believe in these Italian workers, and I won’t believe in them
until they have crossed the Brenner Pass.” He then said to me, “You can
believe in them because tomorrow Mussolini is signing an agreement that
1,000,000 workers will come to Germany.”
* * * If I may mention it, it is also worthy of mention, that in
January, the beginning of January, I was at a conference with Hitler, or
rather, I did not take part in it, but I knew of it. There, a new worker
contingent was demanded, and in this conference Hitler himself named the
number of 250,000 workers for the construction; for aircraft
construction. In other words, it wasn’t Speer but Hitler who demanded
those workers, especially, and it is possible—that, at any rate, is the
way I construe it now—that he was thinking of these fighter plants.
Then I asked Hitler to permit me to use 10,000 Todt Organization workers
from Southern Russia. I must mention that here, because I did that as
Speer’s representative with Hitler. I could not have said to Speer that
he should give me these 10,000 workers. I had to do that through Hitler,
because the commanders in chief, in this case the commander in chief of
the army group in Southern Russia, were in charge of these people and
they had to be released by them. Thereupon these 10,000 workers got
under way toward Germany. However, they unfortunately arrived very
slowly and some of them never got to the fighter plant, but were taken
over by Speer to make ball bearings in Wellen, in Thuringia, and then,
when no workers came, the plants were to be built by Hungarian Jews. I
do not know precisely when it was, but I do remember an armaments
conference in Linz—I guess it was about the middle of June or maybe
later, but I can’t say for sure—and it was then that the first ones
began to arrive.
Q. Were they approved by Hitler?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, when you of the Todt Organization fetched Italians on your
own initiative, were they volunteers or were they more or less forced
labor?
A. Precisely in Italy, we had a remarkable achievement because as a
matter of principle we turned to Italian firms, gave them commissions
and they provided the workers. I believe I can say that the Todt
Organization was known for taking model care of its workers. For
instance, in Norway and Holland, the Dutch or Norwegian Todt worker
received higher wages than the German Todt worker who was working right
beside him. I could make extensive statements on that if I wanted to, or
if I were given the opportunity.
Q. But that is not an answer to my question, whether they were
volunteers or forced labor?
A. They were not forced. They were brought by their firms.
Q. Through the Italian firms?
A. Yes, that was the intention from the very beginning, so that the
Italian firms could provide their trained and expert personnel to us,
and, in this way, they were simply volunteers; they did much better work
than if they were forced.
DR. BERGOLD: No further questions.
_CROSS-EXAMINATION_
MR. KING: Witness, you stated that Milch was only present at a few of
the early meetings of the Jaegerstab. May I ask you—
A. What I said refers only to those meetings of the Jaegerstab at which
I was present and that was perhaps four or five.
Q. Now, you said, in your affidavit, which has been submitted as a
prosecution exhibit referred to by Dr. Bergold, that you received an
order for the construction of fighter factories at the end of April
1944?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall being present at a conference at Berchtesgaden with
Goering, among others, on the 19th of April 1944?
A. I cannot say whether that was the precise date, but I did take part
in some such conference.
Q. Do you recall who was present at that conference?
A. Yes. Goering was there, Milch was there, the others I’m not sure
about. Saur—I’m not sure he was there. I knew for sure that Milch and
Goering were present, but as to the others I no longer recall.
Q. Do you recall what was discussed at this conference?
A. The construction of fighter plants was discussed then, and, if I
remember, Goering pointed out that the Todt Organization was to receive
all sorts of support but I do not remember the details at the moment.
Q. And a few days later, on 21 April 1944, you received the order from
Hitler to build the six fighter plants?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall that possible sources of labor were discussed at this
meeting? That is, labor for the construction of the fighter factories?
A. I should like to assume that, but I do not remember precisely.
Probably all sorts of conditions and possibilities were discussed, but I
cannot answer this precisely.
Q. You were discussing a large-scale construction; you must have known
where this labor was to come from. Can you tell me what possible sources
were discussed at that meeting?
A. I do not know whether or not that question was discussed at this
conference. I assume that it was, but that was such a long time ago that
it is impossible for me to recall these details. But I was clear in my
own mind about that fact. That we needed so and so many workers was of
course obvious. I did make the demand that this construction program
should receive top priority and I stated previously that I wanted
primarily German workers, which was then done, and in the sector of the
Plenipotentiary General for chemistry I wanted to take some workers;
that was the way in Germany that you got workers. Later, when we of the
Todt Organization took over the construction program in Germany, we saw
that a large number of construction offices had so little manpower that
they had to stop production and there again we found workers. The whole
situation was somewhat unclear because when we took over building these
fighter factories, the entire construction was turned over to the Todt
Organization, and no one could take the responsibility for such
important constructions unless he could control the direction of the
whole construction program, but, with the best will in the world, I
can’t recall the details. There were so many conferences, one followed
the other so rapidly, I do not any longer recall.
Q. Who was your representative at meetings of the Jaegerstab?
A. Schlempp, first of all; even before I was commissioned with this
task, he was the technical adviser or expert on construction. Saur asked
me at that time to regard him as the liaison man between the Todt
Organization and the Jaegerstab. Then, about the middle of June,
Schlempp became group leader of the unit in Prague, for which reason I
provided one of my best men, namely, Knipping and I used him in what had
previously been Schlempp’s capacity.
Q. Do you recall that Schlempp, and later Knipping, reported on the
progress of it to the Jaegerstab?
A. I am convinced that they did, because that was their job.
* * * * *
Q. Now can you give me percentagewise the breakdown of this labor by
groups, that is, prisoners of war labor, foreign labor, concentration
camp labor, German labor?
A. That I could only do with the most general estimate, with vagueness.
In the case of Kaufering, there were perhaps sixty percent from the
concentration camps; however, prisoners of war, as far as I know, were
not there at all. The rest must have been Germans. In Muehldorf, where
the second factory was, the breakdown was roughly the same, but I really
cannot say. I visited each one of these factories only twice. Because of
the transportation situation of the Rhine bridges and the hydrogenation
plant situation, I did not have the time to visit them.
Q. Now did you obtain any of this labor for the construction project? Do
you recall obtaining any of this from Schmelter?
A. I take it that Hitler himself had approved these workers. Our request
went to Schmelter, and he was working his own men in that Todt
Organization, and in the Jaegerstab, and it was his job to settle the
details when they should come, and what they should be paid, and such
matters. That was Schmelter’s job, and Schmelter was told that this is a
technical staff, and he knew that Hitler had approved the workers, and
so it was his job to take care of the details, and to inform the
Einsatzgruppe what it should do. I did not carry much of these things in
detail after that.
Q. Now do you recall how large a construction was at Kaufering? I am
speaking both at Kaufering I and Kaufering II?
A. You mean the technical construction?
Q. Yes.
A. There was one main hall in Kaufering I, three hundred meters long,
ninety meters wide, with six stories. Kaufering II conducted production
later, but everything was concentrated in Kaufering I.
Q. Do you recall how much of this construction was completed?
A. I should think three-fourths. At the last time I visited this
construction shortly before the collapse, the machines were being set in
on one side of the building, and that is as far as it went.
Q. And to whom was this plant allocated?
A. That I cannot say. In my opinion the Messerschmitt, but I must be
careful in what I say here, because in the last week before the collapse
there were negotiations with the armament staff. I cannot remember what
that situation was in Kaufering, but in Muehldorf there was constant
talk of putting Buna in there. That changed continuously, dependent on
the war situation. Once Speer wanted to set up a steel foundry in the
fighter factory in the Rhineland, which was later changed.
Q. Please answer the question. Now in these inspections at Kaufering, do
you recall any Luftwaffe representatives who inspected these
construction sites?
A. That I don’t know. I cannot say. A colonel of the Luftwaffe was there
but in his capacity as representative of the armament commando or of an
armament office.
Q. Now getting back to this meeting of 19 April 1944, do you recall that
Speer was present there?
A. No.
Q. How were your relations with Speer at that time?
A. They were tense. Speer did not regard the Todt Organization as a sort
of construction organization. To make a statement, I should have to go
into great detail on this subject.
Q. I think that suffices. Now with regard to the recruitment of these
fifty thousand Italians, which you discussed with Dr. Bergold, do you
recall who was to handle the recruitment of those Italians for work in
the Reich?
A. To be sure that I do not make any false statement, is it your concern
who recruited the fifty thousand Italians that Hitler approved of?
Q. My concern is through what channel were these Italians that were
promised Hitler by Mussolini, through what channels were they recruited?
A. That was to be taken care of by Sauckel, but through the Todt
Organization, who had their office in Italy apply to Italian firms
ultimately, and that was done through the Todt Organization office in
Italy.
Q. Now with regard to these Italians, do you know what provision was
made for the guarding of those that were to arrive, that is, en route?
A. Of that I know nothing, because they did not arrive. They were not
watched, or guarded at all. They were free workers, there was no reason
to guard them.
Q. Now, Witness, outside of Kaufering, can you tell me where and under
what names these other fighter factories were to be located?
A. In Muehldorf, and then there was a factory in Vaihingen.
Q. Just a minute. Now with regard to Muehldorf, can you tell me what
that was to be used for, who was it to be used by?
A. First it was thought of as a fighter factory, and then, a few weeks
before the collapse, there was a conference of the armament gentlemen in
Munich, at which it was agreed that it could be used for the manufacture
of Buna; in other words, they changed their minds.
Q. What time did that conference at Munich take place?
A. That must have been about the end of March 1945.
Q. Now, with regard to Muehldorf, can you tell me where, primarily this
labor was coming from?
A. These were Hungarian Jews. There were Germans there. Where they came
from, that I don’t know.
Q. Well, now, with regard to these Hungarian Jews, can you tell me
whether that was a result of a special action in Hungary?
A. I don’t believe so, but I don’t know. We were only told that we were
going to receive Hungarian Jews. They were already in Germany, if I
remember, but where they came from I don’t know because I didn’t concern
myself with it.
Q. But you do recall that Hungarian Jews were used on that site?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, with regard to these other factories, we have covered Kaufering
and Muehldorf, can you tell me the location of the others?
A. Vaihingen—that was a factory that was already under construction
before the Todt Organization stepped in.
Q. Witness, where was that located?
A. V-a-i-h-i-n-g-e-n, and it is in Wuerttemberg.
Q. And how large was that construction?
A. It was a building about 100 meters by 60, four, five stories high.
Q. And do you recall what type of workers was used in that construction?
A. Concentration camp inmates, but I don’t know the number.
Q. And that was in Thuringia?
A. No, in Wuerttemberg.
Q. Now do you recall that any of these factories was to be located in
the Protectorate?
A. One was to be erected there, yes, in the neighborhood of Prague but
so far as I know they never got around to it. Perhaps the ground work
was carried out and the machines were shipped there, but the factory
itself was not actually built. Then there was to be another one in the
Rhineland. I have already mentioned that.
Q. Witness, with regard to this factory in the Protectorate, can you
give me the code name for that factory?
A. No, I don’t know it. It was about 50 kilometers north of Prague.
Q. And that was to be used by what company?
A. I can’t say, I don’t know.
Q. Can you give me any indication of the size of that factory?
A. The one north of Prague? Yes. That would have been about the same
size as Kaufering, roughly, but, as I say, I really don’t know whether
they got construction under way there.
Q. But you were to construct it?
A. Yes, it would have been done under my supervision, or under my
direction. I was Speer’s representative and chief of the Todt
Organization.
Q. But you don’t know how far along or whether construction was
initiated there?
A. I cannot say for sure. I suppose that they started the construction,
but so far as I know they really did not actually get this factory
built.
Q. Now, with regard to this factory in the Rhineland, can you tell me
where that was to be located?
A. I can’t remember the name any more. I was there once, and I can
perhaps locate it on the map. It was west of the Rhine, 70 or 80
kilometers, but I can’t remember the name any longer. It was under
construction, and then the construction was interrupted by military
events, that is, about the time when the Americans entered the Rhineland
on the Ruhr. Nor do I know whether concentration camp inmates were used
there.
Q. Do you recall whether foreign labor was used?
A. In this factory? That I cannot say.
Q. You don’t recall constructing any factories for Wiener-Neustadt?
A. No.
Q. Or for the automobile works at Steyr, in Austria?
A. No.
Q. Focke-Wulf, in Bremen?
A. No, in Bremen we only built a U-boat factory.
Q. Do you recall constructing any factories for Heinkel?
A. That I don’t know. I wasn’t really interested in such questions,
because I received the data from the Jaegerstab, and the Jaegerstab did
the actual construction. The engineer of the Todt Organization built the
house, and then the Jaegerstab took care of the rest. There were no
discussions on my part with construction firms. Moreover, I didn’t even
have time to carry out such things.
Q. But you got your labor through Schmelter, who was a member of the
Jaegerstab?
A. Yes, he was a member of the Jaegerstab, and I have already said that
he was also the leader of labor allocation in the Todt Organization. He
was in charge. At first he was entirely within the Todt Organization,
and then later he was what you might call the leader for the allocation
of labor in Speer’s Ministry, and was in charge later of the allocation
of labor in the Todt Organization. At the same time, he performed the
same function in the Jaegerstab, so that automatically there was a
connection between the Todt Organization and the Jaegerstab.
MR. KING: I have no further questions, your Honor.
_REDIRECT EXAMINATION_
DR. BERGOLD: Witness, I have one more question. When did these Hungarian
Jews arrive at Muehldorf?
A. I do not know about Muehldorf, but I can recall that at Kaufering the
first ones came—and here I must guess—at the end or the beginning of
June 1944.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you, I have no further questions.
MR. KING: I have one further question, if your Honor pleases.
DR. BERGOLD: I have just heard that the interpreter was inaccurate. The
witness spoke of the end and the middle of June, and the interpreter
said “the beginning of June”.
THE INTERPRETER: “The middle or the end of June” is what the witness
said, but he is not sure about it.
_RE-CROSS-EXAMINATION_
MR. KING: Now, Witness, with respect to this construction at Kaufering,
can you tell me when that was initiated?
A. In May of 1944 it must have begun, the beginning of May.
Q. And that was also true of the other fighter factories that you were
to construct under the Hitler order?
A. Perhaps two weeks later the construction in Muehldorf began; the
construction in Vaihingen that I mentioned before was already under way,
and I took it over. The construction in the Rhineland started
considerably later, it could have been perhaps at the end of June;
Prague came along much later.
Q. Now, you say that you were at Kaufering on two separate occasions.
Did you have any opportunity to—
A. (Interposing) I was in Kaufering three times. Do you want to know
when? In May 1944; at the beginning of January 1945; and then once more
just before the capitulation, perhaps two or three weeks before the
capitulation.
Q. Do you recall anything about the conditions at Kaufering; that is,
the conditions of labor?