Mr. McKENZIE. I ask you to withdraw that.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You don't like the expression "fellow workers"?
Mr. DULLES. You object to the whole question, or just the way it was
phrased?
Mr. McKENZIE. Let's rephrase it, Mr. Dulles, if I may, please.
Mr. JENNER. I will yield to you, Mr. McKenzie. Fellow employees.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is fine.
Mr. JENNER. You were at lunch with fellow employees of Acme Brick Co.?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify those gentlemen?
Mr. OSWALD. They are Mr. Bill Darwin, the director of marketing
of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Burnett Henry, director of plants and
transportation of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Bob Oech, who is the Texas
division plant manager.
Mr. JENNER. Of Acme Brick Co.?
Mr. OSWALD. Of Acme Brick Co.
And Mr. Bud Adams, who is the plant manager of both the old and new
Denton plants.
Mr. JENNER. And it was at this time and on this occasion at lunchtime
that you first heard any intimation or otherwise of the assassination
or attempted assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. At the completion of our lunch, as we were
departing from the restaurant, as noted in my memorandum, page 1.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you speak on that page of driving in an automobile,
either all or some of you gentlemen.
Whose automobile was that?
Mr. OSWALD. All of us were in one automobile, and we were in Mr.
Burnett Henry's automobile.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it--did the automobile have a radio in it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. JENNER. And did you gentlemen have the radio in operation?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. JENNER. And listening to it?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were.
Mr. JENNER. Were you listening to anything in particular?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mr. OSWALD. We were listening to a newscast of the events that had
already taken place in Dallas, Tex., at approximately 12:30 that
afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. And you record the time in your notebook?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--as approximately 1 p.m., sir.
Mr. JENNER. I think we had reached page 6 of your memorandum.
You record on pages 4 and 5--I think towards the bottom of page 4, and
the upper portion of page 5--your meeting that day or early evening
with Marina and, I believe your mother--but at least Marina.
Is that correct?
In Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And just for the purpose of making sure of the record, I
gather from your testimony yesterday that this was the first time that
you had seen Marina since Thanksgiving Day of 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And where did this visit take place--where did you meet her
on this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Dallas police station.
Mr. JENNER. Did she have either or both of her children with her?
Mr. OSWALD. She had both of her children with her.
Mr. JENNER. That would include the infant Rachel?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Were you advised at any time prior to this occasion that
her second child had been born to her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not been.
Mr. JENNER. And this was the first information you had on this subject?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. You probably knew that a child was contemplated.
Mr. JENNER. Well, he might not.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I wasn't aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. Had you even up to that moment been advised directly or
indirectly that Marina had been pregnant, from which pregnancy the
child Rachel had been born?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not been advised.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter present at the time you visited
with Marina; as I recall your mother was present, also.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter there at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. There was a Mrs. Paine there, who was acting as an
interpreter.
Mr. JENNER. You have now named everybody present--yourself, Marina, and
her two children, your mother, yourself, and Mrs. Paine.
Mr. OSWALD. With the exception, sir, that there was a police officer,
or my assumption that he was a police officer, in the room.
Mr. JENNER. Was he in uniform or plain clothes?
Mr. OSWALD. Plain clothes.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Paine was not there at this time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he was not.
Mr. DULLES. He came later that day, did he?
Mr. OSWALD. Just a very few minutes after this meeting.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine then acted as interpreter between yourself and
Marina and between her and others in the party?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything in the presence of everybody to her
with respect to the birth of her second child, which came as a complete
surprise to you?
Mr. OSWALD. If memory serves me correct, sir, I did make some type of
statement to that effect.
Mr. JENNER. Did you express surprise?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain that I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall now--you walked into the room, and there was
Marina with these others, but with two children, one an infant that
you had not seen before. Was it immediately explained to you? Did you
inquire as to the identity of the infant? Can you reconstruct that for
us?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance on that, sir, possibly
during the preceding half hour, when I was talking with my mother, she
possibly--this I am not clear--advised me of the second child. If she
did not, I was, of course, much more surprised when I walked into the
room where Marina was holding the infant. I remember looking at the
infant, as Marina held the infant, and making some type of comment
about whether or not it was a boy or girl and how old it was.
Mr. JENNER. I don't recall this recorded in your memorandum--and it may
very well be--that the preceding half hour you had had a meeting or
conference with your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And was that--in whose presence was that conference?
Mr. OSWALD. First in the presence of two or three FBI agents, and a
Star Telegram reporter, Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter, at the
Dallas police station.
Mr. JENNER. Do you record that event in your memorandum?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do, on page 5.
Mr. JENNER. On page 6 there is a reference, I think I have interpreted
your writing, to a Mr. Cummings. Would you find that place on page 6?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it.
Mr. JENNER. Do I interpret your writing correctly?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. I believe his name to be a Lieutenant
Cummings.
Mr. JENNER. That is what I sought. He was an officer of the Dallas
police force?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I believe you record on page 6, that Mr. Cummings,
Lieutenant Cummings, or some other--well, I don't want to interpret
what you do record--but you received a report at that time, according
to your memorandum, of the fact of the arrest of your brother, Lee, in
connection with the murder of Officer Tippit.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the first information you had that your brother had
actually been arrested in connection with that incident?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. When had you first received information in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. As my prior testimony stated, at the office, at the new
Denton plant, when Lee's name was first mentioned, stating that he had
been arrested in regards to the shooting to death of a police officer,
and possibly the President of the United States.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Page 7--did you, at the time of the events recorded on page 7, see or
request to see your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And of whom did you make that request?
First I would put it this way: Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald on that
day or evening?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. But you did make a request? Of whom did you make that
request?
Mr. OSWALD. To a police officer. I cannot recall his name. He
reportedly passed on my request to captain of police, Captain Fritz.
Mr. JENNER. And what was his response?
Mr. OSWALD. The police officer who passed on my request asked that I
stay around, that Captain Fritz was quite busy, that he would see me
later.
Mr. JENNER. And did you see Captain Fritz later?
Mr. OSWALD. I did see him, but I did not talk to him. By this, I mean
he was in his glass office, within an office, and I did see him through
the glass, but I did not talk to Captain Fritz.
Mr. JENNER. What was the disposition of your--at least as of that
day--of your request to see your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. None, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Not decided either way?
Mr. OSWALD. I never did receive an answer either way, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
And you eventually left the police station, did you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You record on page 7 that you walked to your automobile, do
you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you trace your course from the time you left the
Dallas City police office to the time you retired that evening?
Mr. OSWALD. You are referring to the time that I first left the Dallas
police office?
Mr. JENNER. Yes--start there, and trace your steps to the time you
retired for the evening.
Mr. OSWALD. Well, my departure of the Dallas police office--I walked to
my car that was in a parking lot approximately seven blocks away.
Mr. JENNER. About what time of day or evening was this?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, approximately 8 o'clock at
night, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. When you left the Dallas police office or
station, did you then have a definite route in mind as to where you
were going?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You had no arrangements with anybody, and no one had any
with you, with respect to where you might or could go?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed, please.
Mr. OSWALD. On arrival at my car in the parking lot in Dallas, Tex., I
started to drive, I did drive to Fort Worth, Tex., by Highway 80.
Mr. JENNER. You were then--you then had in mind doing what--returning
home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that was not the direction of home, sir. I did not
have anything in mind other than I wanted to drive and to arrange my
thoughts at that particular time.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, you do say, and I quote from your memorandum, "I was attempting to
arrange my thoughts and my fears."
Do you find that expression on page 7?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please explain to the Commission what was
meant when you recorded the sentence, "I was attempting to arrange my
thoughts and my fears"?
Mr. OSWALD. What I meant by that statement, sir--not being
disrespectful--I believe it speaks for itself in view of the happenings
of the day. To further elaborate on that, I wanted to have some time
by myself to think about the happenings of the day and the arrest of
my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, and the reference to my fears, whether
or not he could have possibly done this. He had been up to that time
either accused or arrested for the death of Police Officer J. D.
Tippit, and the investigation that was now going on in Dallas as to
the death of the President of the United States and the wounding of
Governor Connally, of Texas.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You were then driving in your automobile.
Did you actually reach Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And then what did you do?
Mr. OSWALD. After driving through Fort Worth, to the west side of Fort
Worth, I turned around and headed back toward Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Up to this point it was continuous driving,
except as you might have been resting or waiting a change of stoplight
or something of that character?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did anybody contact you, or did you speak with anybody
during the period of this drive up to the moment we now have reached?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. You reversed your course and then where did
you go?
Mr. OSWALD. When I reversed my course, I still did not have any idea
as to exactly where I was going. But I did reverse my course, and I
started driving on the turnpike between Fort Worth and Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Does that have a highway number?