Mr. JENNER. I have every confidence in that. As a matter of fact, I
have been with both of you most of the time.
Mr. McKENZIE. And, further, if it has been given to the press by
someone other than the people in this room, and I feel confident it
was not given to the press by anyone--because I have either been with
you, Mr. Dulles, or Mr. Jenner. But I feel that the Commission should
investigate this to see if there is a leak, and, if so, I feel that it
is reprehensible.
Mr. DULLES. I will present your statement to the Chief Justice.
Do you wish to identify the statements to which you take exception?
Mr. McKENZIE. I will identify it this way.
Let me just identify it this way: "His brother told the Commission that
Lee seemed changed when he returned to the United States. He had lost
a lot of hair, which Robert said was unusual for their family, and he
appeared to be under a strain."
"Robert testified that the last time he saw Lee before the
assassination was at Thanksgiving in 1962."
Now, I offer that, sir, for the record from the standpoint that that is
testimony given to the Commission and quoted in this article.
There are other items or matters in the article which Mr. Lewis could
have received from public records, or from newspaper morgues, or
newspaper records. However, the two quotes that I have given from this
article are direct testimony from the Commission, from the Commission's
records.
Mr. JENNER. I think in fairness, Mr. McKenzie, they are with respect to
subject matter. I don't think they are direct quotes of the witness'
testimony.
Mr. McKENZIE. But you will agree with me, won't you, Mr. Jenner, that
they are in respect to subject matter, matters testified to before the
Commission by Robert Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. The subject matter of the hair, yes. I recall specifically
asking Mr. Oswald about that yesterday. We had not inquired of the
witness about that prior to that time.
Mr. McKENZIE. I might further add, sir, that I am familiar with the
statements made to the press by you, Mr. Dulles.
Mr. DULLES. I think you heard both of them that I made yesterday before
the morning, afternoon and evening sessions.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I did. And I would be remiss if I did not add
that I know that you--when you have made statements to the press, you
have been most fair, both to the press, to the Commission, and also the
witness.
And I am in full accord with the statements that have been made to the
press by yourself, by Mr. Rankin, and by the Chief Justice.
I might also add, Mr. Dulles, if I may, sir, that the only reason
I bring this up is that I do feel that Mr. Robert Oswald is under
strict--the strictest of oaths to give his testimony only to the
Commission, in the interests of finding out the truth, and that he has
not given any statements to the press nor have I.
Mr. DULLES. On that latter point, I would say that I appreciate and
respect the position that you have taken in this respect, that in the
case of previous witnesses, the Commission itself has no authority to,
as I understand it, and has not attempted to "muzzle" witnesses that
have appeared before it as to what they themselves may say after the
hearings.
The Chief Justice has enjoined them during the hearings not to discuss
the proceedings.
Am I correct, Mr. Jenner?
Mr. JENNER. That is my understanding.
Mr. McKENZIE. And that is exactly the position we are taking, sir. And
that is exactly the position that we have taken, and will continue to
take at all times while he is under oath to the Commission, and until
such time as he is released from that oath.
Mr. DULLES. Well, I will see that your statement is brought
specifically to the attention of the Chief Justice and Mr. Rankin.
Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Shall we proceed, Mr. Jenner?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, thank you, sir.
When the discussion of the Times article arose, you were in the
process, Mr. Oswald, of relating to us an incident of one evening in
the home of your brother, in which--with respect to which Paul Gregory,
the son of Peter Gregory, was expected to arrive at your brother's home
and then to drive about the city of Fort Worth with Marina, she talking
to him in Russian and he likewise in Russian, as part of a course of
instruction in conversational Russian between Marina and Paul Gregory,
who was seeking to improve his command of the Russian language. And you
had reached the point at which you related a conversation with you in
the presence of Marina, which you thought she understood and she took
sufficient part, in to lead you to believe she did understand it.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection as to where we were?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. DULLES. And I would like to add, as I understand it, it was
indicated to you by your brother that this was to be on a financial
basis--that is, she was in effect giving Russian lessons to Paul
Gregory, and would be paid for it.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was any amount of money mentioned? It was by the hour, I
think you said.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; a figure was mentioned. However, I do not recall
the exact figure. I could perhaps to the best of my ability and
remembrance of the occasion place the figure at over $3 an hour.
I do not recall any further conversation that I had with Marina and Lee
Oswald on that occasion.
I did leave their residence before the reported time that Mr. Gregory
was due to arrive.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur that evening, in the course of that
interchange and conversation, that had a bearing upon, or led you to
believe or have the impression, that your brother Lee was seeking to
break off or lessen relations on his part and Marina's part with their
Russian friends?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there?
Did your brother indicate whether these lessons were being given in his
and Marina's home, or whether they were to be given at the Gregory home?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. It was implied if not stated to me at that time
that the lesson was to be given going around Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. This particular occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression, Mr. Oswald, as to the course
of procedure in that respect for any future occasions, or those that
had occurred in the past, because I believe you indicated that your
impression was that this was not arising for the first time that
evening.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall anything being stated at that
time or any other time where these lessons were to be given other than
my impression of that one night that it was to be given as they drove
around Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Am I correct in my impression of your testimony that your
impression in turn was that this relationship had existed at least
somewhat before this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Then would you proceed to the next circumstance or event
which led you eventually to the conclusion or impression that your
brother was seeking to lessen the relations between themselves, he and
Marina, and their Russian friends?
Mr. OSWALD. To the contrary, sir, that was the only time that I recall
that any people of Russian descent or interested in the Russian
language was mentioned in my presence, and I base my opinion on that
particular incident that they were not at the time seeking to lessen
their relationship within this group of people when they did reside at
the Mercedes Street address in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
I had been under the impression, Mr. Oswald, from your first immediate
response to Mr. Dulles' question on this subject, that you had stated
or at least indicated--I had that impression--that you had noted
somewhere along a point of time while they were on Mercedes Street,
some effort on the part of your brother to lessen the intensity at
least of the degree of intercourse between themselves, that is he and
Marina, and their friends of Russian derivation. Am I correct in that?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe you are incorrect in that, sir. I believe I
stated to Mr. Dulles that to the contrary at that particular time
they were not attempting to lessen their relations with this group of
persons. And I cited the incident of that night as they awaited on
the arrival of Mr. Paul Gregory as an example that they were still in
contact at least with that member of Mr. Gregory's family, if not Mr.
Gregory.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. DULLES. It may well have been that the testimony that we previously
had related to a subsequent period.
Mr. JENNER. That may well be.