Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there.
Do you know whether your brother stimulated this letter from your
mother with regard to early discharge, or do you think she did this on
her own, or don't you know?
Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding, sir, that she had originated the
request to the Red Cross.
Mr. JENNER. And that understanding is based on what?
Mr. OSWALD. Just a general feeling that I had at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Was it induced also by discovering from your brother that
your mother had written a letter to the Red Cross?
Mr. OSWALD. I am sure it was, sir. And I might add I pointed out to Lee
why did you accept this early discharge, since he only had a few months
more, I believe it was, to go. Because it had been my experience in the
service that when I ran across somebody who, for one reason or another,
was going to get out a little bit early, I understood that they perhaps
were subject to recall for that period at a later date, or something
along that line. And I thought it was unwise.
Mr. JENNER. Is this what you said to him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I pointed out--I felt like since it was to be
under the regular enlistment period very shortly thereafter, I believe
September 11, 1959, that it would have been the wise thing to stay in.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say to that?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were living in Fort Worth, married, and still you were
having substantially little contact with your mother, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain to the Commission the reasons for that,
the conditions which brought that about?
Mr. OSWALD. After my marriage to Vada M. Oswald, my mother on a number
of occasions--I say a number--perhaps three or four occasions--made it
quite difficult for my wife and myself when we were in her presence at
her apartment there in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Now, please, Mr. Oswald--when you say your mother made it
quite difficult, give us some examples. What do you mean by "made it
quite difficult"?
Mr. OSWALD. Generally, sir, it was the continuation that, even though I
was married and apparently able to take care of myself and start my own
family, she certainly wanted to--my mother certainly wanted to--still
control my thinking, my actions, and my wife's actions.
Mr. JENNER. Can you give us one specific example?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I cannot recall any specific examples.
Mr. JENNER. Indicate the nature of those incidents.
Mr. DULLES. Had she objected to your marriage?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe she did, sir. At least I do not recall any
time that she ever stated that, any objections to my marriage.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that she objected?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, to some extent I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with her about your becoming
married before you became married?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. And did she--what views did she express in that connection?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that would be generally that I was leaving
her alone, that both Lee and John at this time were in the service, and
she would be alone, and that she would like for me to live with her,
that I would stay with her.
Mr. JENNER. When was your marriage again, please?
Mr. OSWALD. I have never stated it before, sir. It was in
November--November 20 or 21, 1956.
Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. The question has been asked of you as to the date of your
marriage.
Mr. OSWALD. This was in November 1956, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you been courting your present wife prior to that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was your mother acquainted with her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; she was.
Mr. JENNER. Did she--did her objections to your marriage, in addition
to those you stated--were there any personalities in the sense of her
objecting to your fiance?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that there was any personality in
the sense of objection on her part, or lack of approval of your fiance?
Mr. OSWALD. If I might say, sir, I feel sure there was, and in my mind
right now--I can think of really no one that she ever approved of to
the extent of my friend, either boys or girls.
Mr. JENNER. Was that also true of your brother, John Pic? And I will
also ask you about Lee Harvey.
Mr. OSWALD. John very seldom, if memory serves me correct, ever brought
any of his friends over to the house, to meet mother.
Mr. JENNER. Presented them to mother, you mean?
Mr. OSWALD. Presented them to mother.
Mr. JENNER. Was that his choice?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say so now that I believe it would have been his
choice.
Mr. JENNER. He preferred not to?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be my assumption, that he preferred not to.
Mr. JENNER. Not presenting his friends to your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you answer the same question as to Lee, as to whether
he brought his friends to your home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe he did. He quite frequently played
around the house with friends there in the neighborhood.
Mr. JENNER. They were children, however, in the immediate neighborhood?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. He is five years younger than you.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He would have been 13 in 1952, this period we are
talking about.
Mr. JENNER. We are interested in this matter of the antipathy existing
between you and John on the one hand and your mother on the other.
Had that gone on for sometime? In order that I don't violate the same
thing that I raise with you occasionally, let me take you back to the
military school days, or to Bethlehem Orphanage. Did a measure of
antipathy exist at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I don't believe it did.
Mr. JENNER. When did it really arise in any marked degree?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe after her divorce from Mr. Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER. That was in June 1948.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And from the time that we moved to the Young
Street address in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. At or about that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you refresh my recollection as to when that was? Was
that in 1948?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please indicate how that antipathy or that change
was evident? What change of attitude was there, either on the part of
you boys, or on her part, or on the part of all of you?
Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps, sir, for the first time in any period, all of
us were together. And perhaps, sir--I say perhaps this would be
correct--she did not know myself and my older brother John at that
particular time to any extent.
Mr. JENNER. You had been away at school pretty much?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. But you had been home for three months in the summertime?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. But still, searching my own mind,
I certainly felt this way at that time. And John and I were not
accustomed to her. Certainly I cannot speak for John. But for myself,
on that point, I would say we were not accustomed to her. We had
become--there again I say we--John and I--I feel like I certainly had
become more disciplined and used to being disciplined by men, and not
used to having a woman around the house. I believe this was perhaps my
feeling at that time.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, if we can return to the events of April
1959, did your mother appear to you to have been injured?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did.
Mr. JENNER. What evidence was there of her injury?
Mr. OSWALD. There appeared to be a little swelling in the upper part of
the nose.
Mr. JENNER. Any scratch or other skin break?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form an opinion at that time as to whether her
injury was major or minor?
Mr. OSWALD. I asked her about it, or she volunteered the information of
how the accident occurred, and that she had been seeing doctors, and so
forth. And I did recall her stating to me that she had been to either
two or three doctors, and none of them had said anything was wrong with
her, and then she was insisting that there was definitely something
wrong, and she was continuing to see other doctors.
Mr. JENNER. Had that sort of thing occurred prior thereto, in which
your mother felt that she was ill and she went to physicians, and the
physicians indicated otherwise?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. JENNER. She was not chronic in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my knowledge.
Mr. DULLES. Was she hospitalized at any time in connection with this
injury?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did she have to give up her work for a period of time, or
did she continue working?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe she did miss a short period of time when the
accident occurred.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. But she was at work on the day you visited her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned that your brother was returning from
the service earlier than he was scheduled to return?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't believe I was.
Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned that he was returning at all at this
particular time--that is, on or about the 11th of September, 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may take a moment, please, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I was not aware that he was being released from
the service earlier.
Mr. JENNER. Had you received any communication from him prior to his
return--that is a communication that was reasonably near the time of
his return?
Mr. OSWALD. The only one that I have a record of, sir, is a letter
dated--postmarked June 6, 1959, at Santa Ana, California, addressed to
me at my Fort Worth address of 7313 Davenport, return address, Pfc. L.
H. Oswald, Santa Ana, California. The letter itself is undated.
Mr. JENNER. You have made reference, Mr. Oswald, to a letter you
received in an envelope postmarked June 6, 1959, from your brother. You
have the original of that letter before you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that letter--did you receive in addition to this
letter until September 11, 1959, any other letter from your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I can recall, sir, or that I have record of.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this letter in the third paragraph reads, "Well,
pretty soon I will be getting out of the Corps, and I know what I want
to be and how I am going to be it, which I guess is the most important
thing in my life"--"in life." Have I read it correctly?
Mr. OSWALD. You have, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection did I respond to the letter, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when your brother was mustered out, on or about
September 11, 1959, did you have a discussion with him with respect to
this subject matter--that is what he wanted to be in life, and how he
was going to go about it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not--to this extent. He did, of course,
indicate to me that he wanted to go to New Orleans, Louisiana, and live
and find a job there, and he did not indicate what type of job or what
type of work he wanted to do.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, Mr. Chairman, this letter
has been identified and is in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 296.
How did you learn that your brother was in Fort Worth, upon his being
mustered out of the Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, he called me on arrival at Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. That was the first notice or knowledge that you had that he
had been discharged?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And his call to you was the first notice or knowledge you
had that he was in Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. It necessarily follows, and I take it it is a fact,
that your mother had not called you to advise you that he was being
discharged or would be discharged at or about that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I can remember, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Might I ask you at this point whether your brother ever
talked to you about his experience in the Marines. Did he tell you
anything about that, give you any incidents? I think you only had one
day--that would have taken place on that one day, between the three or
four days between his return and going off again.
Mr. JENNER. Or may I add, Mr. Chairman, any correspondence he had in
the Marines, and any leaves.
Mr. DULLES. We have no letters, have we, from the witness?
Mr. JENNER. No, but I thought there might possibly be some.
Mr. DULLES. I don't want to interrupt, but it seemed to me to fit in at
this particular point.
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, other than general discussion, about the
Marine Corps. I recall--and I believe this was on his leave in 1958,
when we discussed this--I had asked him did he know any of my drill
instructors, and I at the time recalled a senior drilling instructor at
Camp Pendleton, by the name of Sgt. Cobie. And he stated he did not.
However, he did run across, while he was in boot camp, some other drill
instructor, but he could not recall his name, who stated he recalled
me, or asked him one day did he have a brother that had been in the
Marine Corps a few years before. He said yes, he had. And apparently
this man did remember me, because he asked was I the right guide in
that platoon. And my brother Lee did not know that I was. I do recall
that conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any other conversation with him or any
correspondence from him in which the subject matter of his career in
the Marines was discussed, or to which allusion was made?
Mr. OSWALD. I certainly received other letters during the course of
his enlistment in the United States Marine Corps. I do not recall any
specific instance that reflected what his opinion was of the Marine
Corps, nor that at any time I remember did he refer to any happenings
or incidents while he was in the Marine Corps that perhaps might upset
him, or might have made him happy.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing either way?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Completely bland in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether any of those letters are available
now? Do you have those letters?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I do not have those. I say I believe I
do not. I have looked for just everything that I could possibly find
on Lee's life, and letters and so forth, and I have not run across any
others.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that. You have made a thorough
search?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. DULLES. If you should find them, you will make them available to
us, will you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Certainly, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Just one more question on that, if I may. I would gather that the
correspondence you had during his stay in Russia was more voluminous
than while he was in the Marine Corps, from what you tell me.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly was. There was certainly a larger
flow of letters from him, and from me to him, at this time than there
was during his stay in the United States Marine Corps.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. So while he was in Russia, he wrote you considerably more
often, at least after the first year, I guess it was, or nine months,
than he had theretofore?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. If I might there again refer to the letters from
Russia received from Lee Harvey Oswald and placed in evidence before
this Commission, when he notified us in 1959 that he was no longer
going to write or contact us, and did not want us to contact him in any
way, it was until April of 1961 before I heard from him again, which
was, of course, a period of time after one year.
Mr. JENNER. Had you written him in the meantime?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know where he was in the meantime--that is, any
particular town or city in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. And you had the impression that he did not want you to
write to him at that time?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, he says that in the letters.
Mr. JENNER. Yes--one of these letters I am about to examine him about
so states.
That is correct, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, however, that in contrast, commencing with
the letter in 1961, April I believe you said it was--from that time
forward, there was, by comparison, a considerable number of letters,
and a larger volume of correspondence than you had ever had from your
brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was a continuous flow. Realizing the period
that it would take to make a complete cycle of the exchange of one
letter to another, of approximately two weeks--the letters were quite
regular.
Mr. JENNER. And this had not been the pattern even in prior years.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. When he was in the Marine Corps, or when you were in the
Marine Corps?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Confirmatory of that, Mr. Oswald, I note in Commission
Exhibit No. 296, is the last paragraph which reads, "I know I haven't
written in a long time. Please excuse me. Well, there really isn't
too much news here. But I would like to hear from you and the family.
Write soon. Your brother, Lee". I take it from that that there had
been--this was the first communication you had had from him, as he
says, in a long time.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Does your memory serve you sufficiently now to define more
clearly the period to which he refers as "a long time"?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say in between the leave in 1958, and his letter
received, postmarked in June 1959, I would not have received over two
or three letters.
Mr. JENNER. His leave in '58 was when, again, please?
Mr. OSWALD. I recall this to be in the early fall of the year--perhaps
September.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Directing your attention now back to the letter
of November 8, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 294, I will ask you
this: Is this the first letter you received from him from Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is it the first communication of any kind, at least
directly from or initially by him, that you had from him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. This is, then, the first time you heard from him from the
day he departed to go to New Orleans, as he had stated to you, for the
purpose of finding employment?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You testified yesterday that you responded to this
letter--that is, Commission Exhibit 294, dated November 8, 1959. Is
that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You were unable to recall particularly well yesterday your
letter in response to Commission Exhibit 294. Has the reading of the
letter of November 26, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 295, and your
re-reading of the letter of November 8, Commission Exhibit 294, served
to refresh your recollection as to the contents of your letter which
you wrote in response to Commission Exhibit 294?
Mr. OSWALD. To some degree, sir, it most certainly has.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you now, having had your recollection
refreshed, relate to us as near as may be, if you are able to do so,
your letter in response to your brother's letter, Commission Exhibit
294?
Mr. OSWALD. Which was the letter of November 8--is that correct?
Mr. JENNER. That is correct.
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, in my response to his
letter, I asked him why he went to Russia, and for what purpose he went
to Russia. And I believe, sir, that is to the best of my ability, in
the remembrance of my letter, that would be the only two questions that
I asked him.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in the letter of November 8, he says, "Do you know,
for instance, that I have wanted to do this for well over a year"--that
is, go to Russia. I take it from your prior testimony that you had not
known, either well over a year or even for an instant, that he had any
intention of going to Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Had the name Albert Schweitzer College ever been mentioned
by your brother Lee prior to this time--that is, let us say, prior to
the middle of September 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. He also states in this letter of November 8--makes the
rhetorical question--"Do you know that I speak a fair amount of
Russian, which I have been studying for many months". Had that subject
matter ever come to your attention prior to his uttering it in the
letter of November 8?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it had not.
Mr. JENNER. You did not know, up until this time, that your brother had
been studying Russian while in the Marines?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. And again if I may elaborate on that, I
was not aware that he ever studied any foreign language.
Mr. DULLES. Did your brother ever talk to you about what he was reading
during this period?
Mr. JENNER. Or at any time, during his school period?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Of course, I have seen him read various books.
I never did see him read a book--unless the covers--or perhaps if I
picked it up--it didn't indicate anything about communism or socialism.
He did like to read. He read quite a bit. And by this, I have observed
him to read anything from funny books to novels, to westerns, the full
scope. He liked American history. I have seen him read American history
a great deal.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a voracious reader? That is, did he read a great
deal, devote much attention to reading?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was what I would term an assiduous reader.
Mr. JENNER. I am directing your attention to his--oh, say, from age,
let's say, nine or ten to the time he enlisted in the Marines--maybe we
better go back a little bit more, since you were away. I would like to
cover his youth up to the time he enlisted in the Marines. Is that the
period of which you speak?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I speak of a later period--my visit to
New Orleans after I received my discharge from the Marine Corps.
Mr. JENNER. And before he enlisted in the marines?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; before he enlisted in the Marine Corps. And of
his moving to Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.
Mr. OSWALD. With mother--in 1955.
Mr. JENNER. On these occasions you observed him reading assiduously?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you had an opportunity, and you embraced it to some
extent, just out of curiosity if nothing else, of observing the
nature and character of the literature and the subject matter of the
literature he was reading?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And it is of the nature and the subject matter you already
stated?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During any of that period, and any observation you ever
made whether then or prior thereto, had you noticed him or seen any
books--he uses the expression "Marxism", communism--or any books or
works, or pamphlets of that nature?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. I did not at any time observe him
reading or have in his possession any type of pamphlet or book, should
I say, of a political nature.
Mr. JENNER. Even American politics?
Mr. OSWALD. American politics, of course--American history, of course,
would go into some degree of American politics.
Mr. JENNER. I think you are probably right. But other than American
history.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not observe him.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your brother states in this letter of November 8, the
United States was a country that he hated. Taking the whole letter, we
would like to have you state what your reaction to the letter was when
you received it and read it, in view of the rather severe things he
says, and startling things he says in this letter.
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, refer to my testimony yesterday in relation
to this letter, and my reactions then, I thought more along that line.
I have not come up with any other conclusions where my thinking as
to my reaction at the time I received the letter--other than it was
something that I expected, due to what I had read in the newspapers
prior to receiving the letter of November 8, 1959.