Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, telegrams, you sent one to Mr. Herter and
one to your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; sent two. At this time I advised the reporter of
the contents of the telegram. I did not receive confirmation of these
telegrams from Western Union.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from that you do not have copies?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
However, they are printed in their entirety in the next edition of the
Star Telegram, which I believe would be November 1st edition.
Mr. JENNER. November 1, 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please state to the best of your present
recollection what your instruction by way of message was to the Western
Union?
Mr. OSWALD. In the telegram to Secretary of State Christian Herter, I
requested his assistance in contacting Lee Oswald through any means
available.
Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate for what purpose, sir?
Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe I did, sir.
And the telegram to Lee Harvey Oswald, I asked him to contact me
through any means available. I did use the word "mistake."
Mr. JENNER. Would you please give me your best recollection of the
message, as you recall it, that you dispatched or ordered dispatched?
Mr. OSWALD. My best recollection of that is I sent the telegram
to Lee Harvey Oswald care of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, Russia,
requesting Lee to contact me through any means available, and the one
word "mistake. Keep your nose clean," signed "Robert L. Oswald, 7313
Davenport."
Mr. JENNER. The word "mistake" was by itself?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. The phrase of "keep your nose
clean," is something we have said to each other since knee high, so he
would know that I did send the telegram.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive a response to that telegram?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not receive a response to either one of the
telegrams.
Mr. JENNER. Neither from the State Department, Mr. Herter, nor an
assistant on that telegram, nor from your brother Lee on his telegram?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Other than the letter of November 8, 1959, now identified
as Commission Exhibit No. 294?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It is the first word you had from him in which he
acknowledges or made plain that he had received the telegram?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, has 294 been submitted?
Mr. JENNER. I think it has not. May I offer in evidence as Commission
Exhibit 294 the document that has been so identified.
Mr. DULLES. Accepted.
(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 294 was received
in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. It being understood with Mr. McKenzie that we may introduce
in evidence the photostatic copy in lieu of the original, the original
having been produced before the Commission.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak, did you have any conversation with your
brother upon his return from Russia respecting your dispatch of the
telegram and his reaction to it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I had more or less forgotten it myself.
Mr. JENNER. There is a reference in your brother's letter of November
8 to his reluctance to engage in a telephone conversation. Had you
attempted to reach him by telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. I had decided to try to reach him by telephone on Sunday,
November 1, 1959. I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You were unable to, you mean?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I placed the call and I received the
New York operator, overseas operator, and there was some discussion as
to what time it was in Moscow, and so forth, and I changed my mind and
did not. However, I am aware that my mother tried and did for a moment
have Lee on the telephone in Moscow.
Mr. JENNER. At that time?
Mr. OSWALD. At approximately that same date.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make any effort to reach him by telephone
thereafter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he reach you by telephone or attempt to do so as far as
you know?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge did he.
Mr. JENNER. There is a reference in the letter of November 8 to his
willingness to accept money from you if you would send any. Did you
send him any money?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. My reply to that was if he used it to
come back I would gladly send it.
Mr. JENNER. Your reply--did you write him a letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a copy of that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not have a copy of any letter that I wrote to
him.
Mr. JENNER. You do not know the whereabouts of that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not, other than to say that I asked Mrs.
Marina Oswald if Lee kept any of my letters and her reply was that "No,
he always threw them away."
Mr. JENNER. In view of that, Mr. Oswald, would you please recite to the
best of your recollection the contents of your letter in response to
your brother's letter of November 8, 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not remember anything other than that statement
referring to the money request. I do not recall anything else in the
letter.
Mr. JENNER. You have heard Mr. McKenzie read that letter through. Did
it refresh your recollection, or does it as to whether you made any
comment upon his political statements in his letter to you of November
8?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe I did at any time make any statement in
reference to his political statements that he made in the letter of
November 8. Generally, my statements to the members of the press at the
time was that I felt Lee was not aware of what he was doing. I believe
I referred to him as a kid. And that he just generally didn't know what
he was doing, and that was just about the general text of anything I
had to say to the members of the press at that time.
Mr. JENNER. There is an entry in your brother's diary of November 1,
1959, somewhat cryptic, referring to three telephone calls from mother
and brother. Now you say you didn't call. Do you know whether your
brother John ever called him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my knowledge. However, that was November 1,
sir, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. That is when the entry was made.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say that he did not at that time try to contact
Lee by telephone, because I do not believe at that early date--he was
in Japan and was not aware that Lee had gone to Russia, because we
were just aware of it on October 31, and recalling a letter from John
over there, that he was not aware of it for a number of days after he
actually went over there.
Mr. JENNER. I see. But efforts were made on the part of your mother to
reach him or she did reach him by telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I understand he spoke to her briefly, and then he
hung up.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of refreshing your recollection, would you
be good enough to read your brother's letter to you or what purports to
be your brother's letter to you of November 26, 1959, and in reading
through it--the reason I have asked you to look at it is that the
letter is framed as a response to what apparently were questions that
you put to him in your letter which was in response to his letter of
November 8, and seeking to refresh your recollection as to the contents
of your letter.
Mr. Chairman, this is a fairly long letter, and if Chief Justice Warren
has a little time perhaps we might have Mr. Oswald read the letter over
this evening since we are quite late in the day and I can pursue it
tomorrow.
Mr. DULLES. I think we had better adjourn fairly soon.
Mr. JENNER. This would be a convenient time if it is convenient with
you gentlemen.
The CHAIRMAN. What does Mr. McKenzie think, I see him smiling.
Mr. McKENZIE. I am not going to place myself in a position, Mr. Chief
Justice, of overruling either you or Mr. Dulles.
Mr. JENNER. I can question the witness with respect to some unrelated
matters. That matter is not related to this, if I might.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, one thing I would appreciate if you could
bring out in response to some of Mr. Bogg's questions which I don't
believe he was quite clear on, I would like for the sake of the
record to show what Robert's career in the Marine Corps was from the
standpoint of whether he was a noncommissioned officer, and so forth,
and so on, if you could bring that out.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
I had asked him to state his military career and maybe out of modesty
he just left left that out.
Would you--you did give us in detail in your various stages and your
specialty.
Mr. OSWALD. I might say going through boot camp at San Diego, Calif.,
during the second week of boot training I was selected as the right
guide of the platoon which actually was a go-between the drill
instructors and the rest of the platoon, and I retained that position
all the way through the remainder of the boot camp. On completion of
boot camp I was a Pfc. I retained that--excuse me, I retained that rank
until I went to Miami, Fla., at which time on my departure from Miami,
Fla., I received my corporal's stripe, and prior to leaving Korea in
April of 1955 I received my sergeant's stripe which was my last stripe
that I received in the Marine Corps.
I did receive, of course, an honorable discharge, a Good Conduct Medal,
and the various citations of the unit in Korea, Presidential Unit
Citations, and such.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you.
I can't recall whether it was Representative Boggs or Representative
Ford who was questioning you about conversations between yourself
and your mother regarding her claim that your brother may have been
a representative of the CIA or some other government agency, and you
mentioned there were two occasions. I did ask you to state the detail
of one of the occasions which was in the Six Flags Motel in Dallas.
Would you please state where the second conversation took place and who
was present and what was said?
Mr. OSWALD. The second conversation took place over the telephone in a
call that originated from my mother's house in Fort Worth, Tex., to my
home in Denton, Tex.
I do not know if my wife was present at my end or who was present on
the other end, at my mother's home.
Mr. JENNER. You recognized her voice?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. It was your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. It was my mother.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say on the subject?
Mr. OSWALD. She was still pursuing this question or this speculation as
far as I am concerned that Lee was an agent of the CIA, and that she
was going to be able to, I believe use used the word "concrete", to be
able to concretely establish that with the officials.
Mr. JENNER. You fixed that as having occurred subsequent to the
occasion in the Six Flags Motel?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Can you fix the time of the second occasion more definitely
than that it followed the other?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say this was approximately during the week of
December 9, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Was it before or after her trip to Washington which you
have testified about when Mr. Ford questioned you?
Mr. OSWALD. This was before her trip to Washington.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when your mother returned from Washington, when she
made her trip here about which you testified in response to questions
from Representative Ford, did she say anything about her claim or
speculation, as you put it, that your brother was or might have been an
agent of the CIA or some other agency of the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. I have not talked to my mother since she has been to
Washington.
Mr. JENNER. I see. So there has been no claim by her to you since the
occasion of the second conversation which was a telephone call?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During the time of your youth and your association with
your brother Lee you testified this morning of the normal interest of
boys in firearms. You have also testified that your brother Lee was
right handed. Did you ever see him handle even a toy pistol or a cap
gun other than with his right hand?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not that I can remember. You, of course, recall
sometimes when maybe he was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak.
Mr. JENNER. He was what?
Mr. OSWALD. He was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak, when we were playing cops
and robbers or cowboys and Indians, where he would have two guns.
Mr. JENNER. With the exception of having two guns when he had one he
had it in his right hand?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What ever type of playing, shooting, sitting, or otherwise,
he always had the pistol, rifle or cap gun in his right hand?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You said you were using B-B guns. Were there occasions when
Lee also occasionally shot a B-B gun rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I have a recollection that when he was mustered out of the
service in September of 1959 he spent two or three days at home in Fort
Worth.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And there was an occasion when you and he and some friends
of yours went on a hunting trip.
Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law.
Mr. JENNER. Or you went squirrel shooting or rabbit shooting.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you, or did anybody accompany you?
Mr. OSWALD. Three of us.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Those I take it were .22's.
Mr. OSWALD. All three were .22 caliber, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you obtain them?
Mr. OSWALD. Two of them belonged to me and one of them belonged to my
brother-in-law.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother-in-law?
Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. OSWALD. S. R. Mercer, Jr.
Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of this trip? How did it come about?
Did you suggest it, your brother-in-law, Lee or how?
Mr. OSWALD. The day that I recall that Lee stayed with us in--between
the time he was discharged and the time he was supposed to be leaving
for New Orleans was a period of 2 to 3 days. One of those days, I
feel sure was a Saturday, either we spent all day out at my in-laws'
farm or the afternoon at the farm at which time Lee and I, and my
brother-in-law went hunting.
Mr. DULLES. Was this a couple of days before he left for Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. This was a couple of days before he left for New Orleans or
about 1 day or 2 days before he left for New Orleans.
Mr. DULLES. And then he shipped out?
Mr. OSWALD. To locate a job.
Mr. JENNER. On that occasion, that incident, did he have occasion to
discharge the .22 caliber rifle he was carrying?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see him do so?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. From what shoulder did he, against which shoulder did he
place the butt of the gun?
Mr. OSWALD. The right shoulder.
Mr. JENNER. And with which hand or fingers of which hand did he pull
the trigger and discharge the gun?
Mr. OSWALD. The right hand, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit any proficiency in the use of that .22
caliber gun on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say an average amount.
Mr. JENNER. Hunting rabbits or squirrels with a rifle takes pretty good
marksmanship. Did any of you boys bring down a rabbit or squirrel, on
the fly, I mean?
Mr. OSWALD. As I recall, one small, very small cottontail as he ran
across the peanut field, all three of us were shooting at him, and
my weapon that I had, one of the weapons that belonged to me, was a
semiautomatic 22 and I perhaps had a burst of four or five rounds that
I said I got him. But all three of us were shooting at him.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did all three of you claim him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Was that your only victory on that hunting trip or did
someone else shoot down a squirrel or a rabbit?
Mr. OSWALD. No squirrels were killed that day and perhaps I believe
this was the occasion that we went into what we called a briar patch
located off to the left of the farmhouse; at that particular time it
was very thick with cottontails, and I believe we exterminated about
eight of them at that time between the three of us because it was the
type of brush and thorns that didn't grow very high but we were able to
see over them, so getting three of us out there it wasn't very hard to
kill eight of them.
Mr. JENNER. Now, had you and your brother engaged in this very light
form of hunting at any other time during your lifetime?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the frequency of that?
Mr. OSWALD. If I recall, only one other occasion that we had been
hunting together. This was during a leave that Lee had from the Marine
Corps.
Mr. JENNER. During a leave that he had?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And at which time, if I may correct myself there,
another time comes to mind, I recall two times that we had this type
of light hunting out there at that farm, at the same place. One time
was during a leave that he had from the Marine Corps. I don't recall
of any game at that particular time that we shot. I know we did handle
the rifle and fired maybe target practice, something along that line. I
don't recall of anything.
The second time that I now remember is during his stay after he
returned from Russia, during his stay at my home in Fort Worth, that my
wife and I and our children took him and his wife and child out to the
farm to meet our in-laws, my in-laws, and also to do a little hunting
while we was out there, and which we did just a very little bit. I
believe this was on a Sunday afternoon and we didn't stay out very long.
Mr. JENNER. What weapons did you use on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. On that occasion, I believe the same weapons we used before.
Mr. JENNER. Would that be true of all three occasions?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe on the first occasion, which was the occasion
that Lee came home on leave, that at that time I only owned one .22
rifle.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the semiautomatic?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not the semiautomatic, it was a bolt
action rifle, with a clip on it. However, I believe Lee either used my
brother-in-law's rifle----
Mr. JENNER. Was that a bolt-action rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is a bolt-action rifle. He either used that
rifle or a single-shot, bolt-action rifle, another .22 that was out at
the farm.
Mr. JENNER. On the occasion during which you went hunting during
that 3-day period, interregnum his return and his discharge and his
departure for New Orleans, was the weapon he employed a bolt-action
weapon?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement on my part that on all the occasions
that you recall hunting with Lee he employed a bolt-action rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. During your youth and prior to these occasions about which
you testified, do you know of the fact or know by rumor or otherwise
that your brother engaged in this light hunting or other kind of
hunting where he used a firearm even though he was not with you or you
did not accompany him?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel surely that he did, without recalling any particular
time that he told me, but his interest along that line was generally
like mine, that is hunting and fishing, and I am sure when he had an
opportunity to hunt that he did do so.
Mr. DULLES. Did he ever tell you about hunting in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that, please, tell us when the
conversation took place and the circumstances, if it was a conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. The circumstances was it was in a letter I received from
him.
Mr. JENNER. Is that one of the letters you produced?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with him in addition to the
letter, apart from the letter?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did along that line because as I stated our
interests in hunting and fishing was mutual and he did state that he
was able to----
Mr. JENNER. In response to Mr. Dulles' question, would you give the
conversation? We will take care of the letter in the morning.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am trying to give the conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Proceed.
Mr. OSWALD. That we talked about hunting over there, and he said that
he had only been hunting a half dozen times, and so forth, and that he
had only used a shotgun, and a couple of times he did shoot a duck.
Mr. JENNER. It was all shotgun shooting, no rifle shooting?
Mr. OSWALD. No rifle shooting, no sir. That is all they were allowed to
have, the shotgun.
Mr. JENNER. This conversation took place, as I understand it, on his
return from Russia when he was living with you for that month, that
would be June-July of 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the extent of the conversation?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is.
Mr. JENNER. As you now recall it--there have been some reports, and
they are only reports as far as we of the staff are concerned, of
speculation about a television set, whether your brother purchased or
owned a television set and whether he purchased it outright or on time
with a guarantee from you.
What information or knowledge do you have in that connection?
Mr. OSWALD. I am not aware that he purchased a television set, sir. I
did at his request, when he and Marina and the baby were living in Fort
Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Where in Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, in a small duplex which
was----
Mr. JENNER. Can you fix even more definitely the time of this event?
Mr. OSWALD. This was approximately the latter part of September, 1962.
And at his request----
Mr. JENNER. He came to you, excuse me.
Mr. OSWALD. He called me, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He called you by telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he called me at my office from his place of
employment in Fort Worth at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Give us the substance of what he said.
Mr. OSWALD. We talked briefly about how each family was doing, and so
forth, and he said that he would like to establish credit and he had
tried to charge something at Montgomery Ward's at Fort Worth, the West
7th Street store, and they had stated that he needed to have somebody
cosign or vouch for him, and this was his request to me, and I said
gladly I would do so, and late that afternoon after work, this was
approximately 5:30 by the time I arrived at Montgomery Ward, I did
sign for Lee's charge account. However, I was not aware of what he was
charging.
Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion, I take it, at that time of
what--the use to which he intended to put his credit?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe perhaps he did mention something about a
baby chair and a baby bed.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion between you about his
purchase or acquisition of a television set?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in his home or apartment?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see a television set there?
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, you are referring to the apartment on Mercedes
Street, is that correct?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I was in his home quite a few times and there was not
a television set that I remember.
Mr. JENNER. On any occasion that you were there?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. On any occasion when you were in any place of residence
of your brother after his return to the United States, did you see in
those premises a television set?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where was that?
Mr. OSWALD. At my house and at my mother's house.
Mr. JENNER. I should have been more specific and identified a residence
as one of his own rather than living with you or living with your
mother.
Mr. OSWALD. At no residence that he lived in that I was aware of at any
time did I see him with a television set that I would take to be his
own.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions--did any discussion ever
occur between the two of you with respect to his acquisition of a
television set?
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.
Mr. JENNER. This is, as far as you are concerned, a total blank, this
television set matter?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. I think we had better adjourn pretty soon. This man has had
quite an ordeal for the day.
Mr. JENNER. It is acceptable.
Mr. DULLES. Is it acceptable to you?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. I have no objection to continuing.
Mr. McKENZIE. If you would prefer to reconvene tomorrow morning we can
reconvene then.
Mr. RANKIN. I think 9 o'clock is better. I think we can finish up in
the morning.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you. At 9 o'clock in the morning.
(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
_Friday, February 21, 1964_