Mas. no. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay.
V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.
M^r Elseworth moved that the rule of suffrage in the 2^d branch be the
same with that established by the articles of Confederation. "He was not
sorry on the whole he said that the vote just passed, had determined
against this rule in the first branch. He hoped it would become a ground
of compromise with regard to the 2^d branch. We were partly national;
partly federal. The proportional representation in the first branch was
conformable to the national principle & would secure the large States
ag^{st} the small. An equality of voices was conformable to the federal
principle and was necessary to secure the Small States ag^{st} the
large. He trusted that on this middle ground a compromise would take
place. He did not see that it could on any other. And if no compromise
should take place, our meeting would not only be in vain but worse than
in vain. To the Eastward he was sure Mass^{ts} was the only State that
would listen to a proposition for excluding the States as equal
political Societies, from an equal voice in both branches. The others
would risk every consequence rather than part with so dear a right. An
attempt to deprive them of it, was at once cutting the body of America
in two, and as he supposed would be the case, somewhere about this part
of it. The large States he conceived would notwithstanding the equality
of votes, have an influence that would maintain their superiority.
Holland, as had been admitted (by M^r Madison) had, notwithstanding a
like equality in the Dutch Confederacy, a prevailing influence in the
public measures. The power of self defence was essential to the small
States. Nature had given it to the smallest insect of the creation. He
could never admit that there was no danger of combinations among the
large States. They will like individuals find out and avail themselves
of the advantage to be gained by it. It was true the danger would be
greater if they were contiguous and had a more immediate common
interest. A defensive combination of the small States was rendered more
difficult by their great number. He would mention another consideration
of great weight. The existing confederation was founded on the equality
of the States in the article of suffrage: was it meant to pay no regard
to this antecedent plighted faith. Let a strong Executive, a Judiciary &
Legislative power be created, but Let not too much be attempted; by
which all may be lost. He was not in general a half-way man, yet he
preferred doing half the good we could, rather than do nothing at all.
The other half may be added, when the necessity shall be more fully
experienced.[120]
[120] In King's Notes another speech of Madison's is given
after Ellsworth's:
"_Madison._ One Gentleman from Connecticut has proposed
doing as much as is prudent now, leaving future amendments
to Posterity,--this is a dangerous doctrine. The Defects of
the Amphictionic League were acknowledged, but were
reformed. The Netherlands have four times attempted to make
amendments in their Confederation, but have failed in each
attempt. The Fear of innovation, the hue & Cry in favour of
the Liberty of the People will as they have done prevent the
necessary Reforms. If the States have equal Votes &
influence in the Senate we shall be in the utmost danger,
the minority of the People will govern the majority.
Delaware during the late war opposed and defeated an
Embargo, to which twelve States had agreed, and continued to
supply the enemy with Provisions in time of war."--King's
_Life and Times of Rufus King_, i., 612.
M^r Baldwin[121] could have wished that the powers of the General
Legislature had been defined, before the mode of constituting it had
been agitated. He should vote against the motion of M^r Elseworth, tho.
he did not like the Resolution as it stood in the Report of the
Committee of the whole. He thought the second branch ought to be the
representation of property, and that in forming it therefore some
reference ought to be had to the relative wealth of their Constituents,
and to the principles on which the Senate of Mass^{ts} was constituted.
He concurred with those who thought it w^d be impossible for the Gen^l
Legislature to extend its cares to the local matters of the States.[122]
Adj^d.
[121] "Mr. Baldwin is a Gentleman of superior abilities, and
joins in a public debate with great art and eloquence.
Having laid the foundation of a compleat classical education
at Harvard College, he pursues every other study with ease.
He is well acquainted with Books and Characters, and has an
accommodating turn of mind, which enables him to gain the
confidence of Men, and to understand them. He is a
practising Attorney in Georgia, and has been twice a Member
of Congress. Mr. Baldwin is about 38 years of
age."--Pierce's Notes _Am. Hist. Rev._, iii., 333.
[122] According to Yates, after Baldwin spoke: "Mr. Madison.
I would always exclude inconsistent principles in framing a
system of government. The difficulty of getting its defects
amended are great and sometimes insurmountable. The Virginia
state government was the first which was made, and though
its defects are evident to every person, we cannot get it
amended. The Dutch have made four several attempts to amend
their system without success. The few alterations made in it
were by tumult and faction, and for the worse. If there was
real danger, I would give the smaller states the defensive
weapons--But there is none from that quarter. The great
danger to our general government is the great southern and
northern interests of the continent, being opposed to each
other. Look to the votes in congress, and most of them stand
divided by the geography of the country, not according to
the size of the states.
"Suppose the first branch granted money, may not the second
branch, from state views, counteract the first? In congress,
the single state of Delaware prevented an embargo, at the
time that all the other states thought it absolutely
necessary for the support of the army. Other powers, and
those very essential, besides the legislative, will be given
to the second branch--such as the negativing all state laws.
I would compromise on this question, if I could do it on
correct principles, but otherwise not--if the old fabric of
the confederation must be the groundwork of the new, we must
fall."--Yates, _Secret Proceedings_, etc., 189.