Christ?” _Jac._ “No, if he is in the bread; but if he is not in it,
what else are you?” _Inq._ “Well then, what do you believe concerning
it? say but a word, yes or no.” _Jac._ “My lord, you have heard that I
believe that he sits on the right hand of his Father in heaven.” _Inq._
“But in the bread?” _Jac._ “My lord, I have told you that I believe in
regard to this according to the testimony of Paul.” _Inq._ “Then you do
not believe, I perceive, that the holy flesh of Christ is eaten as a
sacrament?” _Jac._ “Do all who receive the bread, also receive the body
of Christ?” _Inq._ “Yes, completely, whoever they may be.” _Jac._ “Does
a robber, murderer, rogue, or other person who is full of treachery,
deceit and wickedness, and who feels no sorrow or grief for his evil
deeds, but does still intend to lead such a wicked life, does such an
one receive the body and blood of Christ?” _Inq._ “Though he were the
worst man in the world, yea, even a Turk or heathen, if he came to the
sacrament, he would receive the body and blood of Christ, as well as
any other person, yea, what is more yet, if he were a beast.” _Jac._
“How, my lord, could it be possible, that the unbelieving, ungodly and
unrighteous, to whom eternal damnation is promised, should receive the
body and blood of Christ? It would necessarily follow, contrary to all
Scripture, God willing or not, that they would have eternal life, and
the beasts as well as we, because the Lord has promised that whosoever
eats his flesh, and drinks his blood, has eternal life; and thus the
ungodly would have part in the body of Christ and of Belial, in light
and in darkness, which is impossible, as Paul says.” John 6:54; 2 Cor.
6:15. _Inq._ “How? do you not understand what Paul says, that he that
eats this body, receives his judgment?” _Jac._ “Hold on, my lord; do
not break the Scriptures, for Paul says: _this bread_; and not: _this
body_.” 1 Cor. 11:27. _Inq._ “Well then, whosoever eats of this body,
or this bread, and drinks this cup, unworthily, receives damnation to
himself.” _Jac._ “My lord, he that receives his judgment is far from
receiving the body of Christ; but it is the sentence of his death
that he receives.” _Inq._ “Well then, you certainly acknowledge these
words of Jesus Christ: ‘Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood,
hath eternal life’ (Jn. 6:54); hence you must certainly believe that
we can eat and drink him, as he says.” _Jac._ “I believe the words of
Jesus Christ, but not in the manner the Jews did, who were offended
at him, and said: ‘How can this man give us his blood to drink, and
his flesh to eat?’ yea, even his disciples.” _Inq._ “This was because
they did not understand it well.” _Jac._ “This I readily believe; for
if they had understood it well, they would not have said it, and his
disciples would not have forsaken him because of these words, as they
did.” _Inq._ “Understand well, my son, this was because they understood
that his flesh had to be eaten roasted or boiled, like other meat; but
he spoke of the sacramental eating; otherwise the eating would not
have availed anything. But do you not believe that we eat his flesh
sacramentally, which is a sacrament, which he left us under the form of
bread and wine, into which he has transformed himself?” _Jac._ “Then
he left behind him things that are good for nothing.” _Inq._ “How so?”
_Jac._ “For this reason, my lord, when his disciples understood it so
grossly, as you and others do, he said to them that the flesh profited
nothing, but the Spirit that quickeneth; and my words, said he, are
spirit and life (Jn. 6:63); hence, what profit is it, if we eat his
flesh?” _Inq._ “This was because they did not understand it well, as I
have already told you.” _Jac._ “My lord, I indeed believe that if they
had understood it well, it would not have been necessary for him to
indicate to them that he had allusion to his word.” _Inq._ “How do you
know that he was speaking of his word?” _Jac._ “My lord, I know that it
was of his word, even as it is written that man shall not live by bread
alone, but by the word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, which
alone quickens us in God unto eternal life.” Matt. 4:4. _Inq._ “Behold,
how your deceivers have instructed you in their new doctrines.” _Jac._
“My foundation does not rest upon men, but upon the word of God.”
_Inq._ “Why then will you not believe, like your mother the holy
church, that after the words are pronounced, the bread and the wine are
changed?” _Jac._ “My lord, I have already told you that it is because
there is nothing of this kind written in the Scriptures, for neither
the bread nor the wine which Christ gave were changed.” _Inq._ “O,
certainly it was.” _Jac._ “My lord, I have proven to you, that he still
calls it a fruit of the vine, after the words were spoken.” _Inq._ “Do
you not believe then, Jacques, that Jesus Christ is Almighty? and that
he had power to give his disciples his blood to drink?” _Jac._ “I know,
my lord, that he is Almighty, and that he was able to do it; and even
if he had done it, my lord, has he promised you, that you people should
also perform such a work?” _Inq._ “But is Jesus Christ not able to
leave us this in his sacrament, for a testament?” _Jac._ “Yes, my lord,
had he said so; for he had power over the winds, and the devils, to
change water into wine, and to make himself invisible. Matt. 8:26; John
2:9; Luke 4:30. In short, I believe that he is Almighty in all things;
but a sinful man does not have this power.” _Inq._ “Not! if he utters
the same words of Christ?” _Jac._ “The power does not lie in the words:
this would be the same as sorcery. And if any one were to say to a sick
man: ‘Be thou whole,’ in the same manner in which Christ said it, it
would not heal him.” _Inq._ “Then you do not believe that Christ Jesus
is in the bread?” _Jac._ “My lord, I think you have heard my resolution
as to what I believe with regard to it. Christ said that we should do
it in remembrance of him: now, if he were present, how could it be
done in remembrance of him?” _Inq._ “O how these villains, Zuinglius
and Calvin, have deceived you; those profaners of the sacrament, who
pervert all Scripture into the contrary.” _Jac._ “My faith is not
founded upon the doctrine of either Calvin or Zuinglius.” _Inq._ “Upon
what then?” _Jac._ “Upon the word of God, and the foundation of the
apostles.” _Inq._ “How? you do not believe the word of God.” _Jac._ “My
lord, how should I not believe the word of God? For this same word I
am a prisoner, and stand here in chains before you, to bear witness to
it.” _Inq._ “My son, it is for the word of Satan, and not for the word
of God.” _Jac._ “My lord, take care what you say, lest you blaspheme;
for I have not quoted the word of Satan for my doctrine and faith,
but the pure word of God; but you quote to me the word and exposition
of men.” _Inq._ “It is the word of the holy teachers of the church,
whom you reject; behold here the cause of your error.” _Jac._ “I do
not reject them, but I leave them undisturbed; for I find material
enough in the word of God, to lay a good foundation, and water of life
enough to drink in the pure fountain, without running to the brooks or
pools, which are mostly filthy and turpid.” _Inq._ “Well, this does not
bring us any further; it is late already; since you will not believe
as our mother the holy church instructs you, take heed and consider
the matter well; for you are in such error, that if you die in this
state, you will be damned to all the devils, in the depths of hell.”
_Jac._ “My lord, it is written that judgment belongs to God alone;
how then do you so presumptuously usurp God’s place? God will judge
me.” _Inq._ “Jacques, this is all clear; for you do not believe, and
he that believeth not is damned, says Christ.” Mark 16:16. _Jac._ “It
is written: Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous
judgment. John 7:24. If I did not believe it, I would not quote the
word of God in my defense.” _Inq._ “All heretics do this. Well then,
pray earnestly to God, that you may return to the holy church.” _Jac._
“I trust through the grace of God, that I have become a member of the
true and holy church, which has been cleansed and purchased with the
blood of Jesus Christ.”
* * * * *
Thereupon he arose, and said to me: “Adieu, Jacques, see that you come
to a good conclusion; for your time is short; consider the matter
well.” I also bade him adieu, and told him that I was ready always to
follow that which was best, in what should be proven to me by the holy
Scriptures, and nothing else.
We had many other words yet concerning this matter, for about two
hours; but I have forgotten them. He listens attentively, and does not
easily become heated; we spoke sometimes in Flemish, and sometimes in
French; for the most part, however, I spoke in Flemish, because of the
listeners whom I heard before the door.
Behold here the two articles in regard to which one is most tormented
by them. Every time that he returned to me, he brought some subtle
scripture with which to catch me; but, the Lord be praised, I was
always victorious. I have been before them full eighteen or twenty
times, and were I to write all the discourses which I had with them
in regard to these two articles, I should require a ream of paper, so
great was the number of unscriptural comparisons and similes which
they adduced to me; but I always referred them to the Scriptures. If
there be anything in my hymns, which does not accord with this writing,
it need surprise no one; for though I were to write never so much, I
should not be able to write all that was spoken between us. Thus they
tormented me.
On Friday afternoon, the 14th of January 1558, I was again brought
before the inquisitor. I appeared before him, and he saluted me
cheerfully, for, as much as I could perceive, wine had made him very
merry; he brought no books with him. After we had exchanged a few words
with each other, he said to me: “Jacques, the reason why I have come
here, is simply to learn your decision: for I will no more dispute
with you about the articles of faith, such as the mass, confession,
indulgences, purgatory, and invocation of the saints, or other
ordinances of our mother the holy church.” _Jac._ “My lord, I am well
satisfied; I also do not seek to dispute, but simply to believe what we
are bound to believe, as far as the articles of faith are concerned.”
_Inq._ “Yes, we have not much to do with disputing; for Paul says: A
man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid.”
Tit. 3:10. _Jac._ “My lord, how can you reprove me for heresy, seeing
you have not yet convicted me of being a heretic.” _Inq._ “Not? are you
not a heretic, since you contradict the Christian faith?” _Jac._ “I do
not contradict the faith, for all my purpose tends to it; but you take
one view of the Scriptures, and I another, and no one can judge which
is right, and which is wrong, except spiritual men through the Spirit
of God.” 1 Cor. 2:15.
He laughingly asked me: “Have you the Spirit of God?” _Jac._ “My
lord, you must not ask me this in jest; for I do not boast of it;
nevertheless, I trust through the grace of God, that I am not actuated
by the spirit of Satan.” _Inq._ “Nevertheless, you are deceived and
in error, and Paul says that such shall be avoided after the first or
second admonition.” _Jac._ “Since then you regard us as heretics, O
that God would give, that you would at least use Paul’s advice, that
is shun us, and withdraw from us, and not persecute us unto death, and
shed our blood in every corner.” _Inq._ “Jacques, I do not seek your
death, God knows.” _Jac._ “My lord, my God truly knows it well, and it
will be seen in the end.” _Inq._ “Yes, we only do what we have been
charged with and commanded to do.” _Jac._ “By whom, my lord, by God
or by men?” _Inq._ “We are commanded by God to avoid false prophets.”
_Jac._ “It is indeed true, my lord, that Christ admonishes us to beware
of false prophets, but he gives us a sign whereby to know them, namely,
like a tree is known by its fruits. What fruits have you seen on us,
by which you could judge that we are false prophets?” _Inq._ “Enough
everyday.” _Jac._ “Wherein?” _Inq._ “In this that you have a false
doctrine, which teaches men amiss, and leads them into damnation.”
_Jac._ “My lord, that our doctrine is false, is merely your opinion;
nevertheless, you cannot know that we are false prophets, except by
the fruit of the works, by which it may be known whether we are false
prophets or not; for Christ says: Ye shall know them by their works
(Matt. 7:16); but he does not say, by their faith.” _Inq._ “You people
justify yourselves by your works.” _Jac._ “No; but it is impossible
to gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles, or that a corrupt
tree should bring forth good fruit, according to the testimony of the
Lord.” _Inq._ “Well, Jacques, as I told you, I have not come here
for the purpose of disputing, but simply to learn your decision.”
_Jac._ “I do not wish to dispute either; but I want to reply to you,
that you unjustly accuse us of heresy and deception.” _Inq._ “Well,
let us dismiss that; to what conclusion have you come in regard to
your confession? do you still hold to the views which you confessed
before the commissary?” _Jac._ “Yes.” _Inq._ “Will you not then suffer
yourself to be instructed?” _Jac._ “I seek nothing else, but always to
follow that which is best, most righteous and most virtuous, and I am
not so obstinate in my faith; if I would know a better way to eternal
life, than the one which I now have, I would accept it.” _Inq._ “Well
then, concerning baptism and the sacrament, of which we spoke together,
what do you think in regard to it?” _Jac._ “Only that, my lord, which
shall be proven to me by the Scriptures; that shall I believe, and
nothing else.” _Inq._ “Then you do not believe the holy teachers of
the Catholic church, do I hear no?” _Jac._ “I believe only the holy
Scriptures.” _Inq._ “This is the reason why you are in heresy; that
you think more of yourself than of the holy teachers.” _Jac._ “I glory
not, save in the cross of Christ; but I will not trust in any man; for
it is written: ‘Cursed be the man that trusteth in man.’” Jer. 17:5.
_Inq._ “I know that; but you do not believe the word of God either.”
_Jac._ “My lord, do not say this; for it is not so.” _Inq._ “Not? if
our Savior, taking the bread, says: This is my body; and, taking the
cup: This is my blood; why then do you not yet believe him? why do you
doubt it?” _Jac._ “My lord, I believe Christ’s words, and do not doubt
them.” _Inq._ “Yes, according to your own opinion, and with a different
meaning.” _Jac._ “My lord, I trust that I do not understand it
differently from what the apostles understand it, even as Paul expounds
it.” 1 Corinthians 10. _Inq._ “You say so.”
We had many more words yet about this article, also about baptism, and
a little afterwards about purgatory, and the decree, in all for about
an hour and a half; whereupon he left me, showing me a very nice and
friendly countenance, whether it came from the heart, I do not know.
On the 20th of January of said year, I was again brought before the
same inquisitor. He asked me: “To what conclusion have you come in
regard to what I laid before you concerning baptism and the sacrament,
and what are your views in the matter?” _Jac._ “I have nothing to tell
you than that you have already heard from me.” _Inq._ “Then, if I
hear right, you remain opinionated and obstinate?” _Jac._ “My lord, I
should be sorry to be obstinate against my own conscience; but as you
cannot prove to me by the Scriptures that which you believe, namely,
that the baptism of infants is an ordinance of God, and an apostolical
practice, and also, that the bread and the wine are changed into flesh
and blood, when the priest has pronounced the words over the bread,
this seems to me sorcery, and I cannot understand it so.” _Inq._ “You
may not doubt that the change takes place through the power of God,
for I have sufficiently proven it to you by the Scriptures of God; but
you will not believe.” _Jac._ “My lord, do not say so; for if you had
proven it to me by the Scriptures, I should gladly believe it; for all
my salvation lies in God’s holy word.” _Inq._ “I have quoted to you the
word of God; but you believe nothing but your fanaticism and opinion.”
_Jac._ “My lord, I beg you not to think this; if I knew better, or
understood it differently, I should not wish to resist the word of
God against my conscience, being in the state in which I am, namely,
imprisoned for my life, in daily expectation of death; or it might
well be said that I was the most miserable and unfortunate man that
ever lived upon earth, that I should voluntarily and premeditatedly
seek pain and suffering here until death, in order to obtain eternal
damnation.” _Inq._ “Yes, my child, take good heed what you do; for if
you die in this evil faith and doctrine you have, you are damned to all
the devils.” _Jac._ “O my lord, how dare you speak so? It is written:
‘Judge not, that ye be not judged; for with what judgment ye judge
(says the Lord), ye shall be judged.’” Matt. 7:1,2. _Inq._ “I judge you
according to truth.” _Jac._ “My lord, do not say that; for you know
not what you judge.” _Inq._ “O yes, I do.” And taking up an inkstand,
which stood on the table, he said to me: “As sure as I know that I
hold this inkstand, so assured am I, that if you continue in this
doctrine, and die thus, you will never see the face of God, but will
be eternally damned.” _Jac._ “My lord, do not judge so; for you usurp
God’s place, and rob him of his honor; for judgment belongs unto him
alone.” _Inq._ “Do you think that I do not know what I am saying? and
that I do not see that you are in error? no heretics shall enter into
paradise.” _Jac._ “My lord, you think that we are in error; but as you
people think of us, so we think of you.” _Inq._ “O it is easy to know
through the word of God, who are in error and heresy.” _Jac._ “True,
it is easy to know for those to whom the Lord has given the grace and
wisdom. And for this reason I beg you, my lord, not to take it amiss,
if I speak somewhat boldly with you, and open my heart to you.” _Inq._
“No indeed.” _Jac._ “My lord, as you people think that we are false
prophets and deceivers, so we think that you are; as you think that we
err, so we think that you err; as you think that we deceive the people,
so we think that you deceive them, and upon this we forsake life and
all that we have in the world, to show to you people, and to seal with
our blood, the faith which we have in God.” _Inq._ “Nevertheless, this
only tends to your damnation.” _Jac._ “If it tends to our damnation,
we are of all men under heaven the most miserable (1 Cor. 15:19);
for we are cast out, despised and rejected as abominable before all
the world (1 Corinthians 4:9), and flee from place to place, so that
we suffer continually in the flesh, and have no rest, and, according
to what you say, we are also to suffer after this life: no, no, my
lord, we feel quite a different witness and promise through the word
of God.” _Inq._ “This arises from the fact that you are deceived; but
it will avail you nothing.” _Jac._ “Where then is the people who must
follow their Master through suffering and affliction to eternal life,
as Christ has said that they should be hated for his name’s sake.”
Matt. 10:22. _Inq._ “This was spoken to the apostles only.” _Jac._ “How
comes it then that Paul says that all that will live godly in Christ
Jesus, shall suffer persecution? 2 Tim. 3:12. And the prophet says
that the afflictions of the righteous shall be many, but that the Lord
delivers them out of all evil.” Ps. 34:10. _Inq._ “This means that the
devil will always cause them enough temptation and affliction.” _Jac._
“Paul speaks of persecution, and not of temptation; nor can I conceive
that Christ spoke of temptation, when he said: They will scourge you
in their synagogues, and persecute you unto death, and will think
that they do God service thereby; and ye shall be hated of father and
mother, brethren and friends, and some of you they shall put to death.”
Matt. 10:17,21; John 16:2. _Inq._ “Well, this was spoken only to the
apostles.” _Jac._ “Does not Christ speak there of all that believed in
his name?” _Inq._ “He spoke to the apostles only, who should suffer
when going about proclaiming the gospel; but that afterwards they
should cease to persecute them.” _Jac._ “How came it that the churches
suffered such cruel persecution? and yet they were not all apostles.”
_Inq._ “How so?” _Jac._ “Even as Luke testifies, Acts 17:13, and
Paul 1 Thess. 2:14. Yea, you yourself, my lord, know full well what
Eusebius, one of the ancient teachers, writes in the eighth chapter of
his fourth book. In writing of the primitive church, in what suffering
and contempt they were, does he not say that the people regarded them
as robbers, murderers, infanticides, and abominable men, and said that
they committed incest with their mothers and sisters, shed human blood
in their worship, and sacrificed their children unto idols; they were
also considered seditious persons, accursed villians, and enemies of
God and every creature, and were charged with many other wickednesses
imputed to them by the world, is it not so, my lord? as also the
ancient writers Cyprian and Tertullian write.” _Inq._ “It is so; this
is all very true; but it was done by those who had no knowledge of
the gospel.” _Jac._ “I indeed believe that if they had believed the
Gospel, they would not have persecuted them, nor uttered such slanders
against them; but it has always been so, that even those who boasted of
having the word of God persecuted them that sought to fear the Lord,
and to serve God with all their heart, even as you see in Israel, those
who ought to have confirmed the honor and law of God, put to death the
prophets that were sent to them, and those who knew the Lord from a
pure heart.” Jer. 18:18. _Inq._ “For this reason the wicked are always
among the good, and the chaff remains with the good grain to the end.”
We had much more conversation yet in regard to this matter; finally he
asked me my decision concerning baptism and the sacrament, to which I
replied as I had done at other times. He then left me, enjoining me to
ask God to give me understanding to return, as he said, to the holy
Catholic church.
On the 27th of January of the aforementioned year I was again brought
before the same inquisitor. After a few words he asked me to what
conclusion I had come with regard to what he had said, namely, with
reference to baptism and the sacrament. Thereupon I replied to him as
I had done at other times, that I knew nothing better than to adhere
to my first confession, seeing I could not find in the Scriptures
that which he laid before me, and which he would constrain me to
believe. _Inq._ “Will you then remain obstinate herein, and not
believe otherwise?” _Jac._ “I am not obstinate, but I do not find in
the Scriptures that which you say I must believe.” _Inq._ “Not? do
you not find in the Scriptures what you must believe concerning the
sacrament?” _Jac._ “Yes, but not in the manner in which you believe;
for I cannot understand it so.” _Inq._ “The reason is you do not want
to understand it.” _Jac._ “How, my lord, do you mean that I want to
resist God against my conscience? in this case I should be worse than
an irrational beast.” _Inq._ “Why then do you not understand it?”
_Jac._ “Because it is not given me to understand it differently; and
be not surprised at this, for it is written in the prophets, where
the Lord says: ‘They shall all be taught of God.’” Is. 54:13. _Inq._
“Nevertheless, it seems to me, that if I lay it before you with the
Scriptures, it is nothing but opinionativeness and obstinacy, if you
do not want to believe it.” _Jac._ “I cannot understand it so; think
not that if I understood it differently, I should want to find my
pleasure and amusement here in being imprisoned and chained day after
day, having forsaken my wife and family, to my great damage, expecting
death from day to day, for this were contrary to human nature.” _Inq._
“Well then, believe only in the word of God as it is written there, and
I will be satisfied, namely, that when we eat the bread, we partake of
the body of Christ, and when we drink the wine, we have part in his
blood, as Paul testifies to the Corinthians.” 1 Cor. 10:16. _Jac._ “Be
satisfied then; I believe as Paul testifies there.” _Inq._ “Do you
believe then that there is a communion of the body of Christ?” _Jac._
“Yes.” _Inq._ “Well then, you cannot be a partaker of the body without
eating of it; hence you must certainly say that it is the body of
Christ which you eat.” _Jac._ “Paul does not say this.” _Inq._ “How
can you be a partaker of the body without eating of it?” _Jac._ “How
did Israel become partakers of the altar, who did not eat the altar,
but only the sacrifices?” 1 Cor. 10:18. _Inq._ “Ha ha! see how Calvin
or Zuinglius has instructed you.” _Jac._ “I do not hold the doctrine
of Calvin or Zuinglius.” _Inq._ “Whose then, Menno Simon’s?” _Jac._
“My doctrine and faith are not founded upon men, but upon the word of
God.” _Inq._ “Who then is the head and captain of you people?” _Jac._
“Christ.” _Inq._ “But who is it that instructs you here upon earth, who
is your teacher?” _Jac._ “The word of God.”
When I perceived that he did not know to what church I belonged, I did
not want to tell or indicate it to him.