brought into the same room, before the inquisitor, who had lately been
appointed here by the King of Spain, with full power from him to bind
or to loose, to release or to put to death. When I came before him, I
humbly saluted him; he returned my salutation and said to me: “Jacques,
I am very glad of one thing, namely, at what the Procurator General has
told me, that you are ready to confess your guilt, if it can be proven
to you by the Scriptures that you have transgressed the commandment
of God; and are in error; are you still of the same intention, and
will you accept the Scriptures?” _Jac._ “Yes; and I am ready to listen
to all good instruction according to the word of God.” He had the
confession which I had made before the commissary, and asked me: “Will
you still confess that you received baptism from Leenaert?” _Jac._ “My
word is not yea and nay, but yea, yea, and as I confessed, so I still
confess openly?” _Inquisitor._ “Was not the baptism which you received
in your infancy enough for you, without receiving another?” _Jac._ “I
do not regard the baptism which I received in my infancy as baptism
according to the word and ordinance of God.” _Inq._ “I shall prove it
to you; but do you not believe that infants are born in original sin?”
_Jac._ “David indeed says that he was conceived in sin, even as all
infants are; but sin is not imputed unto them, since Christ has died
to take away sin, as Paul testifies everywhere in his epistles. And as
by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, so grace has
abounded through Jesus Christ.” Rom. 5:12,15. _Inq._ “How are infants
purified, if it is not done through baptism?” _Jac._ “They are purified
through the blood of Christ, since he is the Lamb which taketh away the
sin of the world.” _Inq._ “How are they purified from original sin?”
_Jac._ “My lord, I have told you, namely, through the blood of the Son
of God, who died for us when we were yet enemies, and unbelieving.”
_Inq._ “Do you not believe that infants bear their sin from Adam, till
they are purified through baptism.”
_Jac._ “This must be proven to me by the Scriptures; I believe the
word of the prophet, who says: ‘The son shall not bear the iniquity of
the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; but
the soul that sinneth it shall die.’” Ezekiel 18:20. _Inq._ “It is not
to be understood thus; but the child is impure until it has received
baptism.” _Jac._ “Are the infants purified through the external sign
of the water?” _Inq._ “No; but they must be purified with water, and
then with the Holy Ghost.” _Jac._ “Which washing precedes; the external
or the internal?” _Inq._ “The external; and after these words: In the
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost have been
spoken, they ape purified internally.” _Jac._ “My lord, you say this
without warrant of Scripture; for Christ says that those are hypocrites
who first make clean the outside; but that first, that which is
within shall be cleansed, and the outside will be clean also. Matthew
23:25,26. _Inq._ “You err, and do not understand the Scriptures,
and have suffered yourself to be deceived by a set of vagabonds.”
_Jac._ “My lord, I rely not upon men; but it has not been given me to
understand it differently, and men can not give me the faith; for it is
written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught of God.’ Is. 54:13.
And Jesus Christ says that no man can come to him, except it be given
him of the Father. John 6:44. But now, my Lord, prove to me exclusively
by the Scriptures, that the baptism of little infants is a planting
and ordinance of God, and that it was practiced by the apostles, and I
shall believe it.”
_Inq._ “The ordinance was made by Jesus Christ, when he said: ‘Except
a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the
kingdom of God.’” John 3:5. _Jac._ “Christ is not speaking to infants,
but to a doctor in the law; nor does he speak of little infants that
have just been born; for he says afterwards in the same chapter: ‘That
which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the
Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born
again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so
is every one that is born of the Spirit.’” Verses 6–8.
After I had read this in his German testament, printed at Zurich, I
said: “My lord, if the external baptism of infants is the new birth, we
know whence it comes, for we can see it with our eyes.” _Inq._ “How do
you understand it then?” _Jac._ “I understand it to be the new birth
of him that was in the old Adam, in the body of sin; that we must put
him off, and mortify and crucify the body of sin, together with all
its lusts and affections, in order to be born again unto newness of
life, after the new man Christ Jesus, as Paul testifies at length.”
_Inq._ “This is to be understood with reference to adult persons; but
the little infants that are impure, must be cleansed with water, that
they may obtain salvation.” _Jac._ “What do you believe concerning
infants that do not receive baptism here, according to the faith which
you hold, namely, from the Pope?” _Inq._ “They all go to the devils.”
_Jac._ “O my lord, it is written: ‘If you Judge, judge righteously.’
And Christ says: ‘With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged.’
Matt. 7:2. You condemn innocent infants, notwithstanding Christ says
that theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 18:3. _Inq._ “Those
children were baptized or at least had received circumcision, which
served them instead of baptism.” _Jac._ “The Scripture does not state
that they were circumcised, and you cannot show whether they were
Jewish or gentile children.” _Inq._ “The inhabitants of Jerusalem and
thereabouts in Judea, were all Jews.” _Jac._ “Luke makes a different
statement, saying (Acts 2:5) that at Jerusalem, in Judea, every kind
of tongue under heaven was represented.” _Inq._ “Is it not a sad thing
of you people, that you thus err in the Scriptures? Does not Paul
say that he [Christ] cleansed his church with the washing of water?”
_Jac._ “Paul says: ‘With the washing of water by the Word.’ Eph. 5:26.
Now, then, can you cleanse infants by the Word? or only by the washing
of water? for they cannot believe the Word.” _Inq._ “Then they are
damned, since they do not believe.” _Jac._ “Don’t speak thus; for
they are innocent and poor in spirit, and to such belongs the kingdom
of heaven.” Matt. 5:3. He said as before: “First of all they must be
purified by water baptism, in order to attain salvation.” _Jac._ “The
apostle Peter clearly declares that as the ark which Noah had made
preserved from death and the wrath of God those who had forsaken the
company of the wicked and of the world, and had entered into it, so
baptism is to us for salvation; but the apostle does not at all esteem
the baptism which takes away the filth of the flesh, unless there be a
good testimony of a good conscience before God; and I do not believe
that infants have the testimony of a good conscience, since they know
neither good nor evil.” 1 Peter 3:21.
He made no reply to this, but looked at me sharply, and, after a
few moments said: “Is it Calvin who writes: ‘Attestation (that is,
testimony) of a good conscience?’ These are the false prophets that
deceive you, people; but the genuine text does not read so.” _Jac._ “I
am not imprisoned for the doctrine of Calvin.” I begged him again and
again to let me read in his book, how the apostle wrote it, namely,
in his own testament which he had before him, or in his Latin Bible,
which was of very small size, and translated and printed by Rombertus
Stephanus, at Paris. But however I prayed him, he would not let me
read; hence I said to him: “My lord, you ought not prevent me from
proving the word, since you contradict it.” After additional words he
said to me: “Since you will not believe in the holy teachers, such as
St. Ambrose and St. Augustine (and a host of other saints whom he named
to me), and in the ordinances instituted by the holy church, what then
will you believe?” _Jac._ “I believe only in the ordinance of Christ;
or prove to me that the apostles baptized little infants, and I shall
believe it.”
He attempted to do this by the households that were baptized, in which,
he said, infants might well have been included. I replied that the
Scriptures said nothing about there having been any infants there,
but that they clearly prove that those households heard and believed
the word, as is written of the jailer, and also of Cornelius, the
centurion, and all that were of his house, who received the Holy Ghost
as well as the apostles; namely, those who heard the word. Acts 16:34;
10:45. Hence, my lord, you cannot prove to me, that there were infants
there.” _Inq._ “I will not insist upon it that there were infants
there, or that there were none there, since it admits of doubt; but
you must believe what the fathers and the holy doctors have ordained
concerning it in the church, and practiced until the present time.”
_Jac._ “Did those teachers institute this ordinance with a good
intention; or did they institute it because it was an ordinance of God,
contained in the Scriptures?” _Inq._ “They did it according to the word
of God, with a good intention.” _Jac._ “My lord, you well know how
strictly the people of Israel were forbidden to do anything according
to their own opinion, but that they were only to do what the Lord
commanded them. Deuteronomy 4:2. For Saul was rejected of God, because
he had not acted truly according to the word of the Lord which had been
commanded him, but had followed his own opinion.” 1 Sam. 15:23.
After many other words, which we had together, he went away from me,
saying: “Jacques, I beg you, that you will well consider this matter;
for you are in error and deceived.” _Jac._ “I am neither in error or
deceived, and I have already considered the matter: since you cannot
prove to me by the Scriptures that the baptism of infants is an
ordinance of God, hence I do not believe it.” _Inq._ “Why do you want
me to prove it, since you do not believe in the holy teachers of the
Catholic church, nor their ordinance.” _Jac._ “My lord, it is written:
‘Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted
up.’” Matt. 5:13. After many other words he went away, saying to me:
“Farewell, Jacques; consider the matter well and pray diligently to
God.” I also bade him adieu, and said that I did indeed hope always to
call upon the name of the Lord for help. Ps. 116:4.
There were many other words that we had together, which I have not
written, because I do not remember them well, and I was seized with
an attack of fever. I have forgotten to write his allegations with
which he sought to prove that circumcision was a figure of baptism,
and hence, it [the latter] had to be used in like manner; whereupon
I proved to him by the Scriptures, that circumcision was a figure of
the covenant, and signified nothing but that they were included in the
covenant, and children to whom belonged the promise. Genesis 17:11.
But Paul shows us that he is not a Jew or child of Abraham, who is one
outwardly, or according to the flesh of his seed; but he that is one in
the heart, as Christ says, that they are Abraham’s children, who do the
works of Abraham, though they be Gentiles according to the seed of the
flesh. Rom. 2:28,29; John 8:39. And I showed him that baptism signifies
the true regeneration, even as Christ showed Nicodemus, and the putting
off of the old man, in newness of life, and that hence we had to be
regenerated, and not born anew, as they would assert; and that where
there was no regeneration, there was no need of a sign, since this were
only mocking God. John 3:5; Rom. 6:4. He said to me: “Shall the infants
have no part then in this sacrament?” I told him that the sacraments
had been left to be used in the holy church, for those who have ears
to hear, and hearts to comprehend, and to understand the sacraments;
and not for infants. We conversed much more yet on this article, and
I showed to him the abuse which they have in their baptism, contrary
to the Scriptures, and concerning the baptism of prudent midwives, how
that they regard it as good, and yet rebaptize the recipients of it; I
therefore told him that they were Anabaptists.
On Monday, the 10th of January of the same year, I was again brought
before the same inquisitor, who, after a few words, asked me: “Have
you made up your mind with regard to baptism?” _Jac._ “I have nothing
else to say, than what I have told you already: since you cannot prove
to me with the Scriptures, that the baptizing of little infants is an
ordinance of Christ, I do not believe in it, but hold to the baptism
which Jesus Christ ordained, and which he commanded his apostles.”
_Inq._ “This the false prophets have taught you, of whom the Scripture
says that they shall come, and who have gone out from us.” _Jac._ “Such
false prophets shall be known by their fruits, says the Lord. And as
regards your remark that they went out from you. Paul, when at Miletus,
showed to the elders of Ephesus (Acts 20:30), that among them, and
out from the flock, there should arise wicked men, teaching perverse
things--is it not so, my lord?” _Inq._ “Yes.” _Jac._ “Is not, then, my
lord, the baptism which you people practice, a perverse and utterly
contrary thing, since Christ commanded to baptize those who believed
and were instructed and taught. And the apostles baptized only those
who received the word; but you people baptize only those that do not
believe, and cannot be instructed or taught, nor receive the word,
since they are infants: which appears to me utterly contrary, and like
putting the cart before the horse.” _Inq._ “This is because you are in
heresy, my child, and do not believe the holy teachers; see how it will
go with you. Well then, let us speak of another article.” And having
seen and read the confession which I had read before the commissary,
as I said before, he asked me: “What do you believe of the eucharist?”
_Jac._ “What is that?” _Inq._ “Of the sacrament of the altar.” _Jac._
“Do you mean the Lord’s Supper, or breaking of bread?” _Inq._ “Yes, it
is the same thing, eucharist, sacrament or supper.” _Jac._ “My lord,
it is not the same name; for, see, how the apostles named it: Luke says
that they brake bread from house to house, and not the body of Christ.”
Acts 2:46. _Inq._ “That which Luke speaks of there, is the word of God,
which they distributed to every one.” _Jac._ “My lord, so say also
David Joris and other heretics, who abolish the breaking of bread. But
observe, when Paul was at Troas and they had gathered together in the
night, so that a young man fell down from the high loft, Luke says that
Paul continued his speech until midnight, so that the young man fell
through a window; and when they had come up again, Paul having raised
him up, they brake bread and eat it--they did not eat the word; after
which Paul talked till break of day, and then departed.” Acts 20:7.
When he heard this he looked at me sharply, and did not know what to
say. “Do you not believe,” said he “that when the priest has pronounced
the words, our Lord is in the bread, in flesh and blood, just as the
Jews had it in their hands, and crucified it?” This question he asked
me very many times, and as I did not seek to dispute with him, I said:
“My lord, if you can prove it to me by the Scriptures, I will believe
it.” He urged me, saying: “Say yes or no, what do you believe of it?”
_Jac._ “That which the Scriptures testify with regard to it.” _Inq._
“I ask you whether you do not believe that he is in the sacrament, in
the flesh and blood, just as he was on the cross?” Perceiving that he
became heated, I delayed a little with my answer. _Inq._ “Well, what
do you say?” _Jac._ “Nothing, my lord.” _Inq._ “That I hear, but why
do you wait so long with answering, yes or no?” _Jac._ “My lord, it
is written: ‘Be swift to hear and slow to speak.’” James 1:19. _Inq._
“Well then, Jacques, say but yes or no; if you believe that he is in
the bread, in flesh and blood, say yes.” _Jac._ “My lord, if I were to
say yes to you, how could I prove it to you by the Scriptures, that he
is there in flesh and blood, after the priest has pronounced the words?
for I have never read it in the Scriptures, and since I could not prove
it to you, therefore I will not say that it is so.” _Inq._ “Then you
do not believe it, do I hear, No?” _Jac._ “I believe nothing further
concerning it than what the Scriptures testify, and how should he be in
the bread, my lord? since it is written, that he ascended into heaven,
and sits on the right hand of his Father, until he shall have made his
enemies his footstool.” Mark 16:19; _Inq._ “Do you not believe that
he is able to sit on the right hand of his Father, and also to be in
the bread?” _Jac._ “I believe that he is the Almighty; but he cannot
do contrary to his word: for he must be true, and he is the only truth
himself.” John 14:6. _Inq._ “Will you not believe this Scripture: Take,
eat; this is my body, which is given for you? do you not believe then
that it is his body?” _Jac._ “Which do you believe to be his body,
that which was delivered and suffered for us, and sat at the table,
and spoke, or that which he held in his hand, namely, the bread? was
this delivered for us, and did the bread die on the cross for our sins?
and did not the bread represent his body?” _Inq._ “Both.” _Jac._ “I
have never read that there are two Christs, but only one only Son of
God.” This I had often told him before. _Inq._ “These two are but one;
and the wine, too, is his blood, after the priest has pronounced the
words.” _Jac._ “Does the wine become his blood, after the word has been
spoken, and does it always remain blood, and not wine?” _Inq._ “After
the word has been spoken, the bread is his true flesh, and the wine
is the true blood of Christ, and they remain flesh and blood.” _Jac._
“What then did Christ mean to indicate to his disciples, when he said:
‘This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the
remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of
this fruit of the vine.’ Matt. 26:29, etc. My lord, Christ calls it his
blood of the New Testament, and yet he indicates to his apostles, that
it is still a fruit of the vine, seeing he still calls it so, after he
has said that it is his blood.” _Inq._ “Where do we find this written?”
I then took his German testament, which he had before him, and read
the passage to him. After I had showed and read it to him, he said to
me: “You must not govern yourself according to your own understanding,
but according to the exposition of the holy teachers, such as St.
Augustine, Ambrose, and others of the ancient church.” _Jac._ “I am
well satisfied with St. Paul’s exposition, without seeking for many
other expositions.” _Inq._ “Where has Paul expounded the sacrament
of the altar?” _Jac._ “Paul has expounded and indicated to the
Corinthians, what the Lord’s supper and the breaking of the bread is.”
_Inq._ “Show it to me?” I still had his testament, and read to him the
tenth chapter of the first epistle to the Corinthians, where Paul says:
“I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. The cup of blessing which
we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread
which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?” Verses
15,16.
I had scarcely read this when he hastily replied: “This is against you,
for the apostle there clearly proves that there is flesh and blood in
the bread and wine, and that we are partakers of the body of Christ.”
_Jac._ “My lord, if you please, let me read a little further, and you
shall see that Paul is not speaking of the body of Christ in flesh and
blood, as it hung on the cross; but of his church, which is his body;
for when he says that we have communion, and are partakers of the body
of Christ, he says: ‘For we being many, are one bread, and one body:
for we are all partakers of that one bread.’” Verse 17. _Inq._ “The
apostle speaks here of another body, namely, of his church.” _Jac._ “I
do not find that Paul makes any distinction between two bodies, but
that he speaks of but one body of Christ.” _Inq._ “What then do you
understand by eating his body and drinking his blood?” _Jac._ “Just
what Paul indicates, that it is the communion or partaking of the body
of Christ.” _Inq._ “My child, how deceived you are! do you understand
then, that you can by communion be a partaker of the body and blood of
Christ, without eating and drinking thereof?” _Jac._ “My lord, I am not
deceived, but my foundation is the word of God.” _Inq._ “Well then,
what do you understand by this communion?” _Jac._ “The apostle tells
us this, when he says, in the same chapter: Behold Israel after the
flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
Verse 18. Behold, my lord, here is the simile by which Paul indicates
it to the Corinthians; do you not also understand it so, my lord?”
_Inq._ “Yes.” _Jac._ “My lord, I do not think that you mean that those
who were partakers of the altar, therefore ate the altar, but only the
sacrifices which lay on the altar.” _Inq._ “Do you think that the same
obtains with the sacrament?” _Jac._ “My lord, it seems to me, that when
we eat the bread, we thereby signify that we have part in the body of
Christ; and yet we eat only the bread, and not Christ, just as Israel
did not eat the altar, but only the sacrifices, and yet, by eating the
sacrifices, indicated that they were partakers of the altar.”
Looking sharply at me, he said: “What an error! and do you not believe
that in eating the consecrated bread we eat the body of Christ?” _Jac._
“Paul does not teach this, neither do I understand it so.” _Inq._ “Is
it not a sad thing of you people, Jacques, that you do not believe the
word of God, which says: This is my body; this is my blood; do this in
remembrance of me?” _Jac._ “I believe the word of God; Christ clearly
indicated that he should not be there bodily, since he said that it
should be done in remembrance of him. Paul also says: ‘As often as
ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death
till he come.’ 1 Cor. 11:26. Hence he is not there bodily, seeing he
has not come yet.” _Inq._ “He is certainly there bodily, according
to to the word of Christ, and all the holy teachers expound it so.”
_Jac._ “I think more of Paul singly, than of all the other teachers,
and I hold only to Paul’s exposition.” _Inq._ “You must also believe
the holy teachers of the Catholic church.” _Jac._ “I believe the holy
Scriptures, and only the word of God.” _Inq._ “If you believe the word
of God, you must believe that he that (when the bread is consecrated,
and the words have been pronounced), receives it bodily, receives the
body and blood of Christ, since Christ says so, and he does not lie,
but speaks the truth.” _Jac._ “I know full well that Christ speaks the
truth, but we must understand how he speaks when he says: ‘I am the
bread which came down from heaven, and the bread that I will give is my
flesh’ (John 6:51); do you believe this?” _Inq._ “No, do you believe
it?” _Jac._ “I shall not tell you, neither do we now dispute about
it; but because you say that we must believe as Christ says; behold,
when he says: ‘I am the vine and my Father is the husbandman.’ John
15:1. Paul also says that the Rock of which the children of Israel
drank was Christ.” 1 Cor. 10:4. _Inq._ “No, no, all these words are
not to be believed thus; they are only types of Christ.” _Jac._ “So is
this expression.” _Inq._ “But this is a sacrament, which is left us
as a memorial of the body of Christ.” _Jac._ “My lord, behold Israel
after the flesh; the lamb which they ate was called the passover and a
perpetual memorial, that through the mighty hand of God they had gone
out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage; and so is also the bread
which we break, a memorial of Christ, who has redeemed us from sin
and eternal death, delivering us from the bondage of the devil and the
enemy.” _Inq._ “Yes, according to the opinion of your pastors, Calvin
and Zuinglius, and like heretics, who have introduced new doctrines;
but we have been in this faith over fourteen hundred years; why do you
not believe us?” _Jac._ “My lord, should I believe because of the long
time? there were many heretics, such as the Sadducees, Nicolaitans,
Gentiles, and many others, who erred much longer yet. Turn to the
Scriptures alone, according to the example of the good King Josiah.” 2
Kings 22:11. _Inq._ “Do you think so my son? No, no.” _Jac._ “My lord,
so did the children say to Jeremiah, when they were out of the way.
Jer. 18:18. You also well know how they abused the grace of God, making
a golden calf, praising it and saying: ‘This is the god which brought
us up and delivered us out of Egypt.’ Ex. 32:4. Thus your people now
say of the bread. It is Christ who died for us.”