_Jac._ “We are not founded upon men, but upon the living Rock.” _Inq._
“Have you then no pastor or bishop?” _Jac._ “Yes.” _Inq._ “Who is it?”
_Jac._ “Christ the Son of God.” _Inq._ “You know very well what I mean;
but you do not want to answer; however, have you any adherents of
Calvin or Zuinglius? are you opposed to Menno Simon?” _Jac._ “I believe
that there is not much difference between my faith and Menno Simon’s”
_Inq._ “Do you then believe like Menno, that Christ did not assume our
flesh in the virgin Mary?” _Jac._ “My lord, you said that you would not
dispute about the matter; have you changed your mind?” _Inq._ “Well
then tell me simply what you believe concerning it.” _Jac._ “I believe
that he is the Son of God in every respect, in flesh and spirit; but as
to whence he took his flesh, this I leave in the mystery of God; the
apostles did not dispute concerning it.” _Inq._ “Yes, yes.” We had also
many other words yet, which I have not written here.
On Monday, the 1st of February of the same year 1558, I was again
brought before the same inquisitor. After we had exchanged a few words,
he asked me. “Have you not prayed the Lord for wisdom?” _Jac._ “Yes,
and I need to pray to him daily.” _Inq._ “How is your conscience at
ease?” _Jac._ “Very well; the Lord be praised for it.” _Inq._ “What
are your views concerning baptism and the sacrament, about which we
spoke?” _Jac._ “I hold the same views which I clearly stated to you
before.” _Inq._ “Will you not believe differently?” _Jac._ “I would
believe differently, were it given me to understand differently; but
I will not speak as a hypocrite against my heart and conscience; for
it is written that the Spirit of God fleeth all deceit.” Wis. 1:5.
_Inq._ “Then, as I perceive, you have come to a full determination
in regard to it.” _Jac._ “Yes, until I am instructed differently. My
lord, do you suppose that these, namely, baptism and the sacrament,
are the only objectionable things to me in your church?” _Inq._
“Well, what else is there objectionable to you?” _Jac._ “Many of the
ordinances and institutions in your church, concerning which I do not
find a word in the holy Scriptures.” _Inq._ “Yet we have no ordinance
or institution, which I could not prove to you by the Scriptures.”
_Jac._ “Where is the word _mass_ recorded, or _purgatory_, or _praying
for the dead_?” _Inq._ “I will prove it to you, namely, purgatory, and
that we must pray for the dead.” _Jac._ “Where is it written in the
holy Scriptures?” _Inq._ “Will you receive the books of the Maccabees?”
_Jac._ “Yes indeed, for apocryphical books.” _Inq._ “What does
_apocryphical_ mean?” _Jac._ “The ancients used this name, to indicate
that they are not authentic books, from which rules or ordinances may
be taken.” _Inq._ “It is true that the doctors had some difficulty
therein, but you may therefore not reject them.” _Jac._ “Yes, my lord,
the reason why I will not receive them, is not only this, that I will
not trust in what men have said, but also because I do not find that
Christ or his apostles received them, or quoted any testimony from
them.” _Inq._ “Yes, yes, where have you found that Christ or his
apostles quoted anything from the books of the Kings?” _Jac._ “Enough.”
_Inq._ “Where then?” _Jac._ “My lord, in the first place it is written
in Matthew (12:1), that the Pharisees censured Christ, because his
disciples plucked the ears of corn on the Sabbath. And Christ answered
them: ‘Have ye not read what David did when he was a-hungered and they
that were with him; how he entered into the house of God, and did eat
the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat?’ Hence I say, that
since Christ refers them to that which is written in the books of
the Kings, he thereby shows that he receives them as authentic”[277]
_Inq._ “Well, do you find anything in the book of Joshua?” _Jac._ “Yes,
my lord.” _Inq._ “What is that?” _Jac._ “My lord, you well know that
James in his epistle (2:25) adduces a testimony or example from the
book of Joshua, namely, the second chapter, when he speaks of Rahab
the harlot, who was saved by her works in faith.” _Inq._ “Then you
will not receive the books of the Maccabees, because Christ and his
apostles have not quoted any testimony from them?” _Jac._ “No, and
this for the reason, that they contain a doctrine which is contrary to
all Scripture, namely, that of sacrificing and praying for the dead.”
Deuteronomy 13:1. _Inq._ “If I would take the trouble, I could prove
all our ordinances with the Scriptures, such as mass, confession, image
worship, invocation of the saints, and others.” _Jac._ “I think not,
and even if we were agreed, my lord, in every article, I should yet not
want to unite with you, unless you should prove to me by the Scriptures
that it is Christian-like to shed innocent blood on account of the
faith, as you do.” _Inq._ “This is on account of errors.” _Jac._ “And
even though it were because the Scriptures were understood amiss, yet
I do not find in the Scriptures, that we may put any one to death on
account of his faith.”
[277] The passage referred to is 1 Samuel 21:6. The reader will
bear in mind that formerly the two books of Samuel were called
respectively the first and second book of the Kings.--TRANSLATOR.
_Inq._ “O I can soon prove that heretics may be put to death; for it is
written that if any heretics or false prophets should arise, they shall
be put to death.”
_Jac._ “Yes, I have read the 13th chapter of Deuteronomy, where it is
written that if a false prophet, or other person among them, should
arise and teach them to go after other gods, which they had not known,
that false prophet should be put to death, and stoned with stones.”
_Inq._ “Well then, see here a testimony that heretics may be put to
death.” _Jac._ “My lord, we are no more under the law, but under the
gospel; and even if we were under the law, we would not teach you to
go after other gods, but after him who created heaven and earth, and
his Son Jesus Christ.” _Inq._ “You certainly do it by your ordinances.”
_Jac._ “The Israelites were not all allowed to put any one to death
because of difference in the use of the ordinances, since they believed
in the same God: but all this does not answer our purpose; for what was
commanded in the law is not commanded in the gospel of Christ.” _Inq._
“Not, how so?” _Jac._ “Because, my lord, in the law it was commanded,
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, and to love one’s neighbor, and to hate
one’s enemy; but through Christ we are commanded quite the contrary,
not to resist evil, and to love our enemies.” Matt. 5:38; Lev. 24:20;
19:18. _Inq._ “True, but he did not command that heretics should not be
put to death.” _Jac._ “What does Christ mean then, when he says that we
must not root up the tares which are among the good grain, fearing that
in rooting up the tares, we might also pull up the wheat; wherefore he
commands, to let both grow until harvest; but the harvest is not come
yet.” Mat. 13:29, etc. _Inq._ “You do not understand this very well;
for it is easy to see whether they are tares or wheat.” _Jac_ “Yes,
for him that knows the seed.” _Inq._ “Yes, that is true.” _Jac._ “My
lord, it is written that carnal men know only carnal things; but the
things that are spiritual knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.” 1
Cor. 2:11, etc. _Inq._ “This is very true.” _Jac._ “For this reason, my
lord, I should like to ask you something.” _Inq._ “What is it?” _Jac._
“Have you the Spirit of God, or has the council received the Spirit
of God?” _Inq._ “No, I will not answer this.” _Jac._ “How then shall
you or those of the council be able to judge spiritual things? for the
matter of which we speak is spiritual, and must be judged by the Spirit
of God.” _Inq._ “You are judged only because you have transgressed the
decree of the prince.” _Jac._ “If his command had not been contrary to
God’s command, I should not have transgressed it.” _Inq._ “It is not
contrary to the command of God.” _Jac._ “I wish you would prove to me
by the Scriptures that the decree of the Emperor or King is upright and
just?”
_Inq._ “I believe you think that all our fathers were deceived, and
that your sect is saved. What will you say? it is full twelve or
thirteen hundred years since Emperor Theodosius caused the proclamation
of an edict or mandate, to put to death the heretics, namely, those who
were then rebaptized, like your sect.”
_Jac._ “Yes; my lord, you say that our sect has existed only twenty or
thirty years, but it has always been the case that those who would live
godly in Christ Jesus, have had to suffer persecution, according to the
words of Paul.” _Inq._ “Thus speak all heretics.” _Jac._ “Paul said it
first; yet he was not a heretic.” _Inq._ “I am well aware that he was
no heretic; but they all use the words of Paul; but I tell you, decrees
and mandates for the putting to death of heretics are not a recent
invention, but this has obtained for fourteen hundred years already.”
_Jac._ “But it remains to be seen whether Emperor Theodosius, of whom
you spoke, did well, and a good work according to the will of God, in
issuing such a mandate.” _Inq._ “Yes, he certainly did, since he well
knew that they were heretics.” _Jac._ “My lord, in his opinion they
were heretics: but in the opinion of those who gave their lives for the
testimony of their faith, he himself was a heretic and tyrant.” _Inq._
“How do you know that?” _Jac._ “This is self-evident; for those who
put us to death for our faith, we esteem no better than heretics and
tyrants, as may easily be presumed that also they did who were put to
death by Emperor Theodosius. Hence, this matter cannot be judged save
by the Spirit of God.” _Inq._ “No, no, you must not think that so many
learned doctors as were then in the Catholic church, would have then
permitted it, if it had been wrong to put heretics to death.” _Jac._
“I will not rely upon the ordinances or wisdom of men; for I adhere to
the instruction of Christ and his apostles, who constantly admonish
us to separate from false prophets, and to shun heretics; but not to
pursue them, or to persecute them unto death.” Matthew 7:15; Tit. 3:10.
_Inq._ “My son, do you know why they did not put them to death?” _Jac._
“I believe it was because it was not pleasing to God.” _Inq._ “No, no,
Jacques, it was because they were not powerful enough, and had neither
king, nor prince, nor magistrate.” _Jac._ “Christ had power enough to
call to his aid more than twelve legions of angels, and the apostles
had power enough through the Holy Spirit, but they were called to be
a flock of sheep and lambs, as harmless as doves, and so changed as
to be like little children.” Matthew 26:53; 10:16; John 10:27. _Inq._
“It is true, it was so at that time.” _Jac._ “And shall now, my lord,
the children of God be of a different nature from what they were then,
shall they have the nature of wolves?” _Inq._ “Certainly not; I do not
say that.” _Jac._ “Yet it appears to me, my lord, that those who now
boast of being children of God, have the genuine nature of ravening
wolves.”
He looked at me sharply and said to me: “Why do you think so?” _Jac._
“Because, my lord, Christ calls his people sheep and lambs; and it is
the nature of a flock of sheep, that if they see any beast approaching,
and perceive that it is a wolf, they all flee, yea, though they were
a thousand of them against one wolf, and they do not pursue the wolf,
to devour him, and to shed his blood; but they who boast of being the
flock of Christ, do the very opposite; whence do they get this nature?”
_Inq._ “This comparison is good for nothing, and the allegations are
useless: for it does not obtain with the flock of Christ, as with a
flock of sheep.”
Seeing that he rejected this, I asked him: “Is it not necessary that
the children of God should be born of God, as John testifies? (John
1:13) and must they not be of such a nature and disposition as their
Father and Lord?” _Inq._ “Yes, but why?” _Jac._ “Because it is written
that the Son of God was led as a lamb or sheep to the slaughter, and
opened not his mouth; hence his children must be of such a nature,
since they are born of God.” Isaiah 53:7; Luke 8:32. _Inq._ “This! it
had to come so.” _Jac._ “Why?” _Inq._ “That the Scriptures might be
fulfilled.” _Jac._ “Thus it must also be with regard to his children,
in order that the Scripture may be fulfilled.” _Inq._ “What Scripture?”
_Jac._ “This: ‘If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute
you; remember the word that I said unto you, the servant is not greater
than his lord.’” _Inq._ “This he said to his apostles.” _Jac._ “I
understand it as having been spoken by him of all his children, and as
having been written for our instruction.” _Inq._ “No, no, my son; you
must understand that the apostles were sent to proclaim and preach the
gospel to every creature, and the Lord predicted that much suffering
should come upon them, and that they should be put to death; but after
they had gained a prince to the faith, they had rest, and might well
put to death the heretics in their country.” _Jac._ “My lord, the
Scriptures do not say this, nor can I conceive that it can be the
nature of a lamb, to kill and devour a wolf; for you people say that
you are the flock of Christ, and that we are ravening wolves, and you
put us to death; this does not seem right to me.”
Thereupon he laughingly asked me: “Jacques, was not Peter also a
sheep of Christ?” _Jac._ “My lord, if he was chosen of God, he also
belonged to the flock.” Matt. 10:1. _Inq._ “Answer, yes or no.” _Jac._
“I believe that he was not only a sheep of the flock of Christ, but
even a shepherd.” _Inq._ “Well then, he, who was a sheep, killed two
persons.” _Jac._ “Whom?” _Inq._ “Ananias and his wife Sapphira.” _Jac._
“How did he kill them, seeing he had neither stick nor sword? was it
not the Spirit of the Lord?” _Inq._ “Nevertheless, he did it.” _Jac._
“My lord, do not give the glory to men, as though they could do this by
their own power; for they were killed through the Spirit of the Lord:
moreover, it was not for such a cause as that for which you put people
to death: but it was because they lied against the Holy Ghost.” Acts
3:12; 5:3. _Inq._ “Well, Jacques, my son, this brings us no further;
see that you consider the matter well, reform, and become converted to
the faith of your fathers, for you are in error; hence believe as a
good Christian is bound to believe, and do not attempt so many things.”
_Jac._ “Faith is the gift of God, says Paul.” Eph. 2:8; Rom. 12:3; 1
Cor. 12:9. _Inq._ “Yes, it is truly the gift of God.” _Jac._ “Hence men
cannot give it.” _Inq._ “Certainly not; we must pray to God for it.”
_Jac._ “How comes it then, that they want to compel me to believe, by
threats of death?” _Inq._ “Time is given you, to become converted.”
_Jac._ “My lord, how much time? six, seven, or eight days, as I have
seen in Brabant; can one change his faith so speedily?” _Inq._ “I know
nothing about Brabant, but here we give people six weeks at least, to
see whether they will believe, when the word of God has been presented
to them.” _Jac._ “Why do you say, my lord, if they will believe it? You
talk as though they could believe of their own accord, and yet you say
that faith is the gift of God. The apostles had heard the Lord Jesus,
who was full of wisdom and truth, for two or three years, and yet they
could not comprehend well, as you may gather from the two disciples
who went to Emmaus. Luke 24:13. Paul also had heard the apostles and
disciples; yet he could not comprehend, but cast them into prison.
Acts 9:1. But when it pleased God, he made manifest his will to them,
at the time which he had prepared, and not at any man-appointed time.”
_Inq._ “That was because they had not yet this doctrine, and as it was
in the beginning, they could not comprehend it.” _Jac._ “It was because
it was not given them, or because they were not drawn by the Father
(John 6:44). Why do you not also wait until God does his will with us?”
_Inq._ “You have heard for a long time, and time is still given you
for consideration; you have three weeks yet from this day, to consider
the matter.” _Jac._ “My lord, do you not mean that after three weeks
I shall be put to death?” _Inq._ “You may turn yet in the meantime.”
_Jac._ “But if it be not given me, to understand differently, and I
cannot comprehend otherwise, how shall I turn?” Inq. “For this reason
time is given you, in order to see whether God will not show you mercy
that you may become converted.” Jac. “My lord, I have in mind just now
the children of Israel, who were besieged in the city of Bethulia,
and suffered from scarcity of water, so that their wives and children
died for thirst, and they said: There is no hope from God for us any
more; let us deliver the city into the hands of the enemies. Judith
7:23, etc. Thus you people also say: There is no more hope that he
will turn; let us deliver him to death. And as Ozias, the ruler of the
city, thinking to give good counsel, said to the inhabitants: Let us
yet wait five days, and if within these five days there come no help
from the Lord, we will deliver the city to our enemies. My lord, were
they not sharply rebuked by a widow named Judith, who said to them: Who
are ye that have tempted God this day, and stand instead of God among
the children of men, and would comprehend his purpose,” etc. Judith
8:12, etc. _Inq._ “This cannot be compared to your case.” _Jac._ “My
lord, it appears to me to be the same thing; for you people say that
if no help comes from God within the time appointed us by you, we must
be delivered to death, and according to what you say, we are damned to
all the devils.” _Inq._ “Jacques, there is no doubt about it.” _Jac._
“But how do you expect, my lord, to escape God’s judgment, since you
thus send us away to damnation? why do you not leave us in the hand
of God until the end? for as long as we live here, hope may always be
entertained of reformation, seeing you think that we are damned; but
after death there is no longer any hope.” _Inq._ “I do not drive you to
damnation; for I am not the one that judges you; nor will I be guilty
of your death.”
_Jac._ “My lord, when Susanna was unjustly condemned to death, who bore
the punishment, the judges, or the witnesses?”
_Inq._ “They that were guilty.”
_Jac._ “My lord, the judges were rebuked by Daniel; but the witnesses
were rebuked and punished.” _Inq._ “Do you think that I am witness in
your case? I have come here simply to instruct you.” _Jac._ “My lord,
yet I regard you as the principal witness; for upon your testimony
will the judges sentence me to death, or release me, since for this
purpose you have been sent here, and appointed by the King.” _Inq._
“I do not wish them to condemn you upon my testimony; nor do I want
to judge.” _Jac._ “My lord, when the judges will ask you in regard
to me, what will you answer? will you not say that I am a heretic,
and have deserved death?” _Inq._ “No.” _Jac._ “My lord, I pray you,
what will you say?” _Inq._ “That you are deceived, and seduced from
the right way.” _Jac._ “To be seduced, to err, or to be a heretic,
my lord, appears to me to be all the same thing.” _Inq._ “Well, my
son, think not that I have come here to condemn you to death; for you
will be sentenced only upon the confession which you made before the
commissary; for, as regards myself, I do not wish them to sentence you
upon my word, nor would I have anything to do with it.” _Jac._ “My
lord, I have not followed my business so long, and sat in the council
for seven or eight years, so that I should not know what this amounts
to; but the reason why I tell you this, is to warn you not to stain
your hands with my blood; for I well know for what purpose you have
been sent here.” He now arose, and went away. The words just related we
frequently had together afterwards.
On Monday, the 7th of February, 1558. I was again summoned before the
same inquisitor. When I appeared before him, he saluted me, and asked:
“How are you; have you the fever yet?” _Jac._ “I am well, the Lord be
praised for it; the fever left me three weeks ago, or thereabouts.”
_Inq._ “How are you at ease in your conscience?” _Jac._ “Very well, the
Lord be praised for it.”
He then made a long speech, too long to be briefly related, the sum
and substance of which was, that he entreated me very much, that I
should return to the holy Catholic church, and believe as becomes a
good Christian, without investigating such high things, and wanting to
be so wise. Thereupon I replied: “I investigate nothing but what I am
permitted to believe; and I am well content, simply to believe that
which a good Christian is bound to believe.” Sir. 3:21. _Inq._ “You
indeed say that you want to believe as a good Christian, and yet you
have a heretical faith.” _Jac._ “I have no such faith; but my faith is
founded only upon the pure word of God; and if you were content with
the word of God, you would also be satisfied with my faith.” _Inq._
“True, you quote the word of God; but in your heart you understand
differently.” _Jac._ “As we believe, so speak we; and since we adduce
to you the Scriptures, which are the word of God, for a testimony
of our faith, why are you not; satisfied with it? for it belongs to
God alone, and not to men to search the heart.” _Inq._ “What then do
you believe concerning Jesus Christ; whence did he take his flesh?”
_Jac._ “Do the Scriptures teach you that you must ask me this?” _Inq._
“Because Menno says that he brought his flesh from heaven.” _Jac._
“I have not heard him say this.” _Inq._ “Yet he believes it.” _Jac._
“Menno’s belief is that the Word was made flesh, according to the
testimony of John 1:14, or as the text in your Testament reads: _became
flesh_.” _Inq._ “What do you believe concerning it?” _Jac._ “I believe
that Christ is the Son of the living God.” _Inq._ “Whence did he take
his flesh?” _Jac._ “I do not know, except that he is born of the
Father.” _Inq._ “Do you not believe that he took his flesh in the womb
of the virgin Mary?” _Jac._ “My lord, if you can prove to me that Jesus
and his apostles compelled any one to confess this, I will also confess
it to you; for when Peter confessed Christ, that he was the Son of the
living God, Christ did not ask him, of whom he was made, but said that
upon this rock he should build his church. Matt. 16:18. Again, when
Candace’s eunuch said to Philip, that he believed that Jesus Christ was
the Son of God, and desired to be baptized upon this faith, Philip was
satisfied, without inquiring as to whence he had taken his flesh.” Acts
8:36. _Inq._ “It was not necessary at that time to make such inquiry,
since no difficulty existed yet concerning the matter.” _Jac._ “What
need is there now?” _Inq._ “Because there are so many heretics.” _Jac._
“There were enough heretics also in the days of the apostles; but the
reason is this, that Satan always causes some vain controversy, to
corrupt men’s understanding, and to draw them into error.” _Inq._ “Then
you will not confess that he took his flesh and blood in the virgin?”
_Jac._ “I will not investigate that which is above my understanding,
namely, whereof the Son of God was made; for this was a miraculous
work. However, that you may not think me a heretic, I confess him to be
the Son of God in every manner, in power and might, in spirit, in flesh
and blood, begotten of the own substance of one only Father, namely,
the eternal God, as the Scriptures testify to us; who was with the
Father from eternity; and when the time of the promise was fulfilled,
the eternal Word became flesh, and was conceived in a virgin, of the
Holy Ghost, and born of said virgin Mary.” _Inq._ “He assumed his flesh
from, and was made of, our flesh; will you say nothing with regard to
this?” _Jac._ “I am satisfied with believing in regard to it according
to the Scriptures, without further investigation.” _Inq._ “Do not
the Scriptures say that he took upon him our flesh?” _Jac._ “I have
never read it, and I do not wish to dispute further; besides, you said
that you would not dispute about it; why then do you ask me so much
concerning it?” _Inq._ “In order to see whether your faith is not like
the faith of Menno Simon.” _Jac._ “You have heard that I do not receive
the testimony of men, as a foundation for my faith.”