AN INTERVIEW ON CHIEF JUSTICE COMEGYS.

* Brooklyn Eagle, 1881.

_Question_. I understand, Colonel Ingersoll, that you have been indicted

in the State of Delaware for the crime of blasphemy?

_Answer._ Well, not exactly indicted. The Judge, who, I believe, is the

Chief Justice of the State, dedicated the new court-house at Wilmington

to the service of the Lord, by a charge to the grand jury, in which he

almost commanded them to bring in a bill of indictment against me, for

what he was pleased to call the crime of blasphemy. Now, as a matter

of fact, there can be no crime committed by man against God, provided

always that a correct definition of the Deity has been given by

the orthodox churches. They say that he is infinite. If so, he is

conditionless. I can injure a man by changing his conditions. Take

from a man water, and he perishes of thirst; take from him air, and

he suffocates; he may die from too much, or too little heat. That is

because he is a conditioned being. But if God is conditionless,

he cannot in any way be affected by what anybody else may do; and,

consequently, a sin against God is as impossible as a sin against the

principle of the lever or inclined plane. This crime called blasphemy

was invented by priests for the purpose of defending doctrines not able

to take care of themselves. Blasphemy is a kind of breastwork behind

which hypocrisy has crouched for thousands of years. Injustice is the

only blasphemy that can be committed, and justice is the only true

worship. Man can sin against man, but not against God. But even if man

could sin against God, it has always struck me that an infinite being

would be entirely able to take care of himself without the assistance of

a Chief Justice. Men have always been violating the rights of men, under

the plea of defending the rights of God, and nothing, for ages, was so

perfectly delightful to the average Christian as to gratify his revenge,

and get God in his debt at the same time. Chief Justice Comegys has

taken this occasion to lay up for himself what he calls treasures in

heaven, and on the last great day he will probably rely on a certified

copy of this charge. The fact that he thinks the Lord needs help

satisfies me that in that particular neighborhood I am a little ahead.

The fact is, I never delivered but one lecture in Delaware. That

lecture, however, had been preceded by a Republican stump speech; and,

to tell you the truth, I imagine that the stump speech is what a Yankee

would call the heft of the offence. It is really hard for me to tell

whether I have blasphemed the Deity or the Democracy. Of course I have

no personal feeling whatever against the Judge. In fact he has done me

a favor. He has called the attention of the civilized world to certain

barbarian laws that disfigure and disgrace the statute books of most

of the States. These laws were passed when our honest ancestors were

burning witches, trading Quaker children to the Barbadoes for rum and

molasses, branding people upon the forehead, boring their tongues with

hot irons, putting one another in the pillory, and, generally, in the

name of God, making their neighbors as uncomfortable as possible. We

have outgrown these laws without repealing them. They are, as a matter

of fact, in most communities actually dead; but in some of the States,

like Delaware, I suppose they could be enforced, though there might be

trouble in selecting twelve men, even in Delaware, without getting one

man broad enough, sensible enough, and honest enough, to do justice. I

hardly think it would be possible in any State to select a jury in the

ordinary way that would convict any person charged with what is commonly

known as blasphemy.

All the so-called Christian churches have accused each other of being

blasphemers, in turn. The Catholics denounced the Presbyterians as

blasphemers, the Presbyterians denounced the Baptists; the Baptists, the

Presbyterians, and the Catholics all united in denouncing the Quakers,

and they all together denounced the Unitarians--called them blasphemers

because they did not acknowledge the divinity of Jesus Christ--the

Unitarians only insisting that three infinite beings were not necessary,

that one infinite being could do all the business, and that the other

two were absolutely useless. This was called blasphemy.

Then all the churches united to call the Universalists blasphemers.

I can remember when a Uni-versalist was regarded with a thousand times

more horror than an infidel is to-day. There is this strange thing about

the history of theology--nobody has ever been charged with blasphemy

who thought God bad. For instance, it never would have excited any

theological hatred if a man had insisted that God would finally damn

everybody. Nearly all heresy has consisted in making God better than the

majority in the churches thought him to be. The orthodox Christian never

will forgive the Univer-salist for saying that God is too good to damn

anybody eternally. Now, all these sects have charged each other with

blasphemy, without anyone of them knowing really what blasphemy is. I

suppose they have occasionally been honest, because they have mostly

been ignorant. It is said that Torquemada used to shed tears over the

agonies of his victims and that he recommended slow burning, not because

he wished to inflict pain, but because he really desired to give the

gentleman or lady he was burning a chance to repent of his or her sins,

and make his or her peace with God previous to becoming a cinder.

The root, foundation, germ and cause of nearly all religious persecution

is the idea that some certain belief is necessary to salvation. If

orthodox Christians are right in this idea, then persecution of all

heretics and infidels is a duty. If I have the right to defend my body

from attack, surely I should have a like right to defend my soul. Under

our laws I could kill any man who was endeavoring, for example, to take

the life of my child. How much more would I be justified in killing

any wretch who was endeavoring to convince my child of the truth of a

doctrine which, if believed, would result in the eternal damnation of

that child's soul?

If the Christian religion, as it is commonly understood, is true, no

infidel should be allowed to live; every heretic should be hunted

from the wide world as you would hunt a wild beast. They should not

be allowed to speak, they should not be allowed to poison the minds of

women and children; in other words, they should not be allowed to empty

heaven and fill hell. The reason I have liberty in this country is

because the Christians of this country do not believe their doctrine.

The passage from the Bible, "Go ye into all the world and preach the

Gospel to every creature," coupled with the assurance that, "Whosoever

believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and whoso believeth not shall

be damned," is the foundation of most religious persecution. Every

word in that passage has been fire and fagot, whip and sword, chain

and dungeon. That one passage has probably caused more agony among men,

women and children, than all the passages of all other books that

were ever printed. Now, this passage was not in the book of Mark when

originally written, but was put there many years after the gentleman who

evolved the book of Mark from his inner consciousness, had passed

away. It was put there by the church--that is to say, by hypocrisy and

priestly craft, to bind the consciences of men and force them to come

under ecclesiastical and spiritual power; and that passage has been

received and believed, and been made binding by law in most countries

ever since.

What would you think of a law compelling a man to admire Shakespeare, or

calling it blasphemy to laugh at Hamlet? Why is not a statute necessary

to uphold the reputation of Raphael or of Michael Angelo? Is it possible

that God cannot write a book good enough and great enough and grand

enough not to excite the laughter of his children? Is it possible that

he is compelled to have his literary reputation supported by the State

of Delaware?

There is another very strange thing about this business. Admitting that

the Bible is the work of God, it is not any more his work than are the

sun, the moon and the stars or the earth, and if for disbelieving this

Bible we are to be damned forever, we ought to be equally damned for

a mistake in geology or astronomy. The idea of allowing a man to go

to heaven who swears that the earth is flat, and damning a fellow who

thinks it is round, but who-has his honest doubts about Joshua, seems to

me to be perfectly absurd. It seems to me that in this view of it, it

is just as necessary to be right on the subject of the equator as on the

doctrine of infant baptism.

_Question_. What was in your judgment the motive of Judge Comegys? Is he

a personal enemy of yours? Have you ever met him? Have you any idea what

reason he had for attacking you?

_Answer._ I do not know the gentleman, personally. Outside of the

political reason I have intimated, I do not know why he attacked me. I

once delivered a lecture entitled "What must we do to be Saved?" in the

city of Wilmington, and in that lecture I proceeded to show, or at

least tried to show, that Matthew, Mark and Luke knew nothing about

Christianity, as it is understood in Delaware; and I also endeavored to

show that all men have an equal right to think, and that a man is only

under obligations to be honest with himself, and with all men, and that

he is not accountable for the amount of mind that he has been endowed

with--otherwise it might be Judge Comegys himself would be damned--but

that he is only accountable for the use he makes of what little mind

he has received. I held that the safest thing for every man was to be

absolutely honest, and to express his honest thought. After the delivery

of this lecture various ministers in Wilmington began replying, and

after the preaching of twenty or thirty sermons, not one of which,

considered as a reply, was a success, I presume it occurred to these

ministers that the shortest and easiest way would be to have me indicted

and imprisoned.

In this I entirely agree with them. It is the old and time-honored way.

I believe it is, as it always has been, easier to kill two infidels than

to answer one; and if Christianity expects to stem the tide that is

now slowly rising over the intellectual world, it must be done by brute

force, and by brute force alone. And it must be done pretty soon,

or they will not have the brute force. It is doubtful if they have a

majority of the civilized world on their side to-day. No heretic ever

would have been burned if he could have been answered. No theologian

ever called for the help of the law until his logic gave out.

I suppose Judge Comegys to be a Presbyterian. Where did he get his right

to be a Presbyterian? Where did he get his right to decide which creed

is the correct one? How did he dare to pit his little brain against the

word of God? He may say that his father was a Presbyterian. But what

was his grandfather? If he will only go back far enough he will, in all

probability, find that his ancestors were Catholics, and if he will go

back a little farther still, that they were barbarians; that at one time

they were naked, and had snakes tattooed on their bodies. What right

had they to change? Does he not perceive that had the savages passed the

same kind of laws that now exist in Delaware, they could have prevented

any change in belief? They would have had a whipping-post, too, and they

would have said: "Any gentleman found without snakes tattooed upon his

body shall be held guilty of blasphemy;" and all the ancestors of this

Judge, and of these ministers, would have said, Amen!

What right had the first Presbyterian to be a Presbyterian? He must have

been a blasphemer first. A small dose of pillory might have changed

his religion. Does this Judge think that Delaware is incapable of

any improvement in a religious point of view? Does he think that the

Presbyterians of Delaware are not only the best now, but that they will

forever be the best that God can make? Is there to be no advancement?

Has there been no advancement? Are the pillory and the whipping-post to

be used to prevent an excess of thought in the county of New Castle? Has

the county ever been troubled that way? Has this Judge ever had symptoms

of any such disease? Now, I want it understood that I like this Judge,

and my principal reason for liking him is that he is the last of his

race. He will be so inundated with the ridicule of mankind that no

other Chief Justice in Delaware, or anywhere else, will ever follow his

illustrious example. The next Judge will say: "So far as I am concerned,

the Lord may attend to his own business, and deal with infidels as he

may see proper." Thus great good has been accomplished by this Judge,

which shows, as Burns puts it, "that a pot can be boiled, even if the

devil tries to prevent it."

_Question_. How will this action of Delaware, in your opinion, affect

the other States?

_Answer._ Probably a few other States needed an example exactly of this

kind. New Jersey, in all probability, will say: "Delaware is perfectly

ridiculous," and yet, had Delaware waited awhile, New Jersey might have

done the same thing. Maryland will exclaim: "Did you ever see such a

fool!" And yet I was threatened in that State. The average American

citizen, taking into consideration the fact that we are blest, or

cursed, with about one hundred thousand preachers, and that these

preachers preach on the average one hundred thousand sermons a

week--some of which are heard clear through--will unquestionably hold

that a man who happens to differ with all these parsons, ought to have

and shall have the privilege of expressing his mind; and that the one

hundred thousand clergymen ought to be able to put down the one man who

happens to disagree with them, without calling on the army or navy to do

it, especially when it is taken into consideration that an infinite

God is already on their side. Under these circumstances, the average

American will say: "Let him talk, and let the hundred thousand preachers

answer him to their hearts' content." So that in my judgment the result

of the action of Delaware will be: First, to liberalize all other

States, and second, finally to liberalize Delaware itself. In many of

the States they have the same idiotic kind of laws as those found in

Delaware--with the exception of those blessed institutions for the

spread of the Gospel, known as the pillory and the whipping-post. There

is a law in Maine by which a man can be put into the penitentiary

for denying the providence of God, and the day of judgment. There are

similar laws in most of the New England States. One can be imprisoned in

Maryland for a like offence.

In North Carolina no man can hold office that has not a certain

religious belief; and so in several other of the Southern States.

In half the States of this Union, if my wife and children should be

murdered before my eyes, I would not be allowed in a court of justice

to tell who the murderer was. You see that, for hundreds of years,

Christianity has endeavored to put the brand of infamy on every

intellectual brow.

_Question_. I see that one objection to your lectures urged by Judge

Comegys on the grand jury is, that they tend to a breach of the

peace--to riot and bloodshed.

_Answer._ Yes; Judge Comegys seems to be afraid that people who love

their enemies will mob their friends. He is afraid that those disciples

who, when smitten on one cheek turn the other to be smitten also, will

get up a riot. He seems to imagine that good Christians feel called upon

to violate the commands of the Lord in defence of the Lord's reputation.

If Christianity produces people who cannot hear their doctrines

discussed without raising mobs, and shedding blood, the sooner it is

stopped being preached the better.

There is not the slightest danger of any infidel attacking a Christian

for His belief, and there never will be an infidel mob for such a

purpose. Christians can teach and preach their views to their hearts'

content. They can send all unbelievers to an eternal hell, if it gives

them the least pleasure, and they may bang their Bibles as long as their

fists last, but no infidel will be in danger of raising a riot to stop

them, or put them down by brute force, or even by an appeal to the

law, and I would advise Judge Comegys, if he wishes to compliment

Christianity, to change his language and say that he feared a breach of

the peace might be committed by the infidels--not by the Christians. He

may possibly have thought that it was my intention to attack his State.

But I can assure him, that if ever I start a warfare of that kind,

I shall take some State of my size. There is no glory to be won in

wringing the neck of a "Blue Hen!"

_Question_. I should judge, Colonel, that you are prejudiced against the

State of Delaware?

_Answer._ Not by any means. Oh, no! I know a great many splendid people

in Delaware, and since I have known more of their surroundings, my

admiration for them has increased. They are, on the whole, a very good

people in that State. I heard a story the other day: An old fellow in

Delaware has been for the last twenty or thirty years gathering peaches

there in their season--a kind of peach tramp. One day last fall, just as

the season closed, he was leaning sadly against a tree, "Boys!" said he,

"I'd like to come back to Delaware a hundred years from now." The boys

asked, "What for?" The old fellow replied: "Just to see how damned

little they'd get the baskets by that time." And it occurred to me that

people who insist that twenty-two quarts make a bushel, should be as

quiet as possible on the subject of blasphemy.

The Works of Robert G. Ingersoll, Vol. 07 (of 12) Dresden Edition—Discussions · 第 83 / 90 题