Mr. BALL. Put a circle to show the general area where you and the rest
of them stood around and talked.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there is right around near the telephone and we
were just right around in there.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go?
Mr. FRAZIER. We left, you know, after we stood and talked with some
guys there, some of them had eaten and some of them didn't, some of
them had sandwiches in their hands, so naturally I felt like eating and
I walked around the bin and walked down the steps there.
Mr. BALL. Got your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Come back up?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't come back up. I was sitting eating
my lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes, so
I naturally ate faster than normal, so I was eating a couple of
sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and
the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first
floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking.
Mr. BALL. You never went back to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we didn't. I didn't work any more that day.
Mr. BALL. You stayed there on the job until you were told to go home?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What time did they tell you to go home?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was between 1 and 2 there sometime, roughly, I don't
know what time it was.
Mr. BALL. Had the police officers come in there and talked to you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked
us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our
name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us.
Mr. BALL. Did they ask you where you had been at the time the President
passed?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they had. I told them I was out on the steps
there.
Mr. BALL. Asked you who you were with?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy
vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask
for Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know,
like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after
we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you
know, put down proper information where he could be found if they
wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a
little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office
there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us
all that was there could go ahead and go home.
Mr. BALL. Then you went on home?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Representative FORD. Did all this occur after you had finished your
lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it did.
Representative FORD. Did it ever occur to you at any time following the
shooting there was something connecting the shooting with Lee Oswald
and the package?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say not particularly not at that time, I didn't
think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some were over
here, one or two would be over here talking and just strung out here,
on the first floor and I didn't think anything about it. I see some of
the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back 12:45 so I didn't
know whether he had went out to lunch or not. Some of them do every
week.
Representative FORD. Did any of the policemen interfere with your
efforts to go into the Building and eventually down into the basement
where you had your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. BALL. Before you left, did you look for Oswald to see about taking
him home?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you didn't?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. Because like I told you, he was going
home to get the curtain rods and I asked him at the time, the same
time, it would be about that, would he be going home with me Friday
afternoon like he had been doing, he said no. So naturally when they
let us go I took on off because I thought maybe they had already
dismissed him and he went on home.
Mr. BALL. When you talked to him on Thursday and he told you he
wouldn't be going home on Friday, did he tell you what he was going to
do, why he wasn't going to go home?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again on Friday morning as to whether or
not he had changed his mind? Did you ask him whether or not you could
pick him up at the end of the day?
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I am not sure.
Mr. BALL. Whether you did or not.
Did anybody tell you that Lee Oswald was missing before you went home?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.
Representative FORD. Could you describe for the Commission where you
went on the sixth floor that morning in relationship to the overall
picture of the sixth floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I could.
Representative FORD. Would you do so, please?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Do you have a piece of paper I can draw? [Witness draws diagram on
piece of paper.]
Let's see, right here is your two elevator shafts we have. That morning
I used this one over here.
Representative FORD. Would you mark Houston, Elm and the other streets?
Mr. FRAZIER. This is Houston, this is Elm right out here. Anyway, like
I said, I won't draw these buildings. I have these two elevator shafts
here. Quickly you come off these elevator shafts right here, we have
skids with books on them, and you see right on those skids you would
have some shelves right about like this and so I merely walked over
to the elevator with the two-wheeler we use on the dock and walked
somewhere say maybe halfway, not quite halfway, there and put up some
books, put them down on the floor there, on the floor level and so I
just turned around and come back to the elevator and come on down, and
went about my business. He had me putting up some books there on the
shelves.
Representative FORD. From this point here could you see the windows or
the area at the corner of Houston and Elm in the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you could. I say you could look down and see
this area back over here.
Representative FORD. Did you look over there?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Right on down there, I knew where the books went so normally I didn't
have to look around. I say, I was going to get through, if you are not
familiar with the books and so forth it would take you a little longer
to find and put them up. But if you know where they go you can put them
up very quickly.
So I knew this book went in the shelf because this book we don't handle
very many of them and that is where I put books you don't handle very
many, put them in the shelf.
So I put the books in the shelf and turned around and put them in the
elevator and come on down.
Mr. BALL. Can I have this marked as Commission Exhibit 368, the diagram
just drawn by the witness to illustrate his work on the sixth floor?
The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 368, for
identification.)
Mr. BALL. I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you
recognize this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have.
Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit No. 162, which can be described for the
record as a gray jacket with zipper, have you seen Lee Oswald wear this
jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I haven't.
Mr. BALL. I have here Commission 150, which is described as sort of a
rust brown shirt. Have you ever seen Lee Oswald wear this shirt? It has
a hole in the sleeve near the elbow.
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I
noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a
T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that
day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether
he did have a shirt on.
Mr. BALL. On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is,
he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of
jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had
on that morning.
Mr. BALL. Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.
Mr. BALL. It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what kind of trousers he had on, what color?
Mr. FRAZIER. Not that day, I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. You wouldn't remember that day?
Mr. FRAZIER. I had seen him wear some gray ones before.
Mr. BALL. Here is Commission's Exhibit No. 157 which are gray trousers.
Had you ever seen him wear these?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; to be frank with you, I had seen something more or
less of that order, that type of material, but so far as that, being
sure that, was his pants or some of his clothes, I couldn't be sure.
Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 156 which is a pair of gray trousers.
Did you ever see him wear trousers of that type?
Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know of.
Mr. BALL. You are not able to tell us then anything or are you able to
tell us, describe any of the clothing he had on that day, except this
gray jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is the only thing you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. I have here a paper sack which is Commission's Exhibit 364.
That gray jacket you mentioned, did it have any design in it?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was it light or dark gray?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was light gray.
Mr. BALL. You mentioned it was woolen.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Long sleeves?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Buttoned sleeves at the wrist, or do you remember?
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I didn't notice that much about the
jacket, but I had seen him wear that gray woolen jacket before.
Mr. BALL. You say it had a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now we have over here this exhibit for identification which
is 364 which is a paper sack made out of tape, sort of a home made
affair. Will you take a look at this. Does this appear to be anything
like the color of the sack you saw on the back seat?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say it was, it was more a color like
this.
Mr. BALL. It was more like this color, correct?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did it have tape on it or did you notice it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, like I say, I didn't notice that much about it as I
didn't see it very much.
Mr. BALL. Will you take a look at it as to the length. Does it appear
to be about the same length?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. We will just use this. Was one end of the sack turned over,
folded over? Do you remember that?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I was saying, when I glanced at it,
but I say from what I saw I didn't see very much of it, I say the bag
wasn't open or anything like it where you can see the contents. If you
was going to say putting--to more or less a person putting in carefully
he would throw it in carefully, you put it more toward the back. If he
had anything folded up in it I didn't see that.
Mr. BALL. When you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him
when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he
had the package under the arm?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to
hold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and
put it down normal to the side.
Mr. BALL. But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the
package?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had it cupped in his hand.
Mr. BALL. Cupped in his hand?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Take a look at this paper bag which is Commission Exhibit 364
for identification, with reference to the width.
Was the bag about that width or a different width?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well. I would say it appears to me it would be pretty
close but it might be just a little bit too wide. I think it is,
because you know yourself you would have to have a big hand with that
size but like I say he had this cupped in his hand because I remember
glancing at him when he was a walking up ahead of me.
Mr. BALL. This is another bag here which has been marked Commission's
Exhibit 142. But I don't see the stamp on it. This is FBI No. 10. This
was shown to you before, wasn't it, in Dallas?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. BALL. You were asked if you had seen this before, weren't you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. BALL. When you first saw it, you felt that the bag you saw was of a
different color, didn't you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and I say they told me this one had been treated in
the lab.
Mr. BALL. If you will note there is a part of this bag which has not
been treated.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. So I will show you this part of this exhibit that hasn't been
treated, and tell me whether or not the paper, the color of the paper
that has not been treated, is or is not similar to the color of the
paper on the bag you saw on the back seat of your car that morning.
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, more like I say the color, the color
I saw would be more like it but I imagine if this hadn't been run
through that process that this color here that you unwrapped would be
more closer to this. This seems to have a little bit different color to
me.
Mr. BALL. I didn't get the answer because of the--let's refer to this
bag, that is the colored bag.
Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir.
Mr. BALL. And the bag that is not colored, and the other is just a bag.
Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir.
Mr. BALL. We are talking about the colored bag, the one that has
changed its color. There is a part of the colored bag that hasn't
changed color, isn't it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is the part I want to call your attention to.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. The color of this bag, the colored bag, has not been treated.
Take a look at it. Is that similar to the color of the bag you saw in
the back seat of your car that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. It would be, surely it could have been, and it couldn't
have been. Like I say, see, you know this color, either one of these
colors, is very similar to the type of paper that you can get out of a
store or anything like that, and so I say it could have been and then
it couldn't have been.
Mr. BALL. Do you mean by that that it is similar to the color?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And do you have a definite memory of the color of the bag you
saw on the back seat of your car so that you can distinguish between
one color and another?
Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it would be more on this basis here.
Mr. BALL. You say it would be more on the color of bag No. 364, is that
right?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. You will notice that this bag which is the colored bag, FBI
Exhibit No. 10, is folded over. Was it folded over when you saw it the
first time, folded over to the end?
Mr. FRAZIER. I will say I am not sure about that, whether it was folded
over or not, because, like I say, I didn't pay that much attention to
it.
Mr. BALL. This is Commission Exhibit No. 142.
The CHAIRMAN. That is the dark bag?
Mr. BALL. The dark bag is Commission Exhibit No. 142.
When you were shown this bag, do you recall whether or not you told the
officers who showed you the bag--did you tell them whether you thought
it was or was not about the same length as the bag you saw on the back
seat?
Mr. FRAZIER. I told them that as far as the length there, I told them
that was entirely too long.
Mr. BALL. What about the width?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, like I say now, now I couldn't see much of
the bag from him walking in front of me. Now he could have had some
of it sticking out in front of his hands because I didn't see it from
the front. The only time I did see it was from the back, just a little
strip running down from your arm and so therefore, like that, I say, I
know that the bag wouldn't be that long.
So far as being that wide like I say I couldn't be sure.
Mr. BALL. It could have been that wide?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Now, you said that some of the bag might have been beyond his
hands, did you say?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I said it could have, now I am not saying it was.
Mr. BALL. In other words, it could have been longer than his hands?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. It has been suggested that you take this bag, which is the
colored bag, Commission Exhibit No. 142, and put it under your arm just
as a sample, or just to show about how he carried the bag.
Mr. FRAZIER. Okay.
Mr. BALL. Put it under your armpit.
Mr. FRAZIER. Like that, normally your hand would come down like that
and you would say, you would have an item, like you have seen people
carry items like they would be walking along and your arm would come
down like that, just like----
Mr. BALL. But are you sure that his hand was at the end of the package
or at the side of the package?
Mr. FRAZIER. Like I said, I remember I didn't look at the package very
much, paying much attention, but when I did look at it he did have his
hands on the package like that.
Mr. BALL. But you said a moment ago you weren't sure whether the
package was longer or shorter.
Mr. FRAZIER. And his hands because I couldn't see that about the
package.
Mr. BALL. By that, do you mean that you don't know whether the package
extended beyond his hands?
Mr. FRAZIER. This way?
Mr. BALL. No; lengthwise, toward his feet.
Mr. FRAZIER. No; now I don't mean that.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean?
Mr. FRAZIER. What I was talking about, I said I didn't know where it
extended. It could have or couldn't have, out this way, widthwise not
lengthwise.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you say it could have been wider than your
original estimate?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. But you don't think it was longer than his hands?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. How tall are you?
Mr. FRAZIER. I am 6-foot, a little bit over 6-foot.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what your arm length is?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. We can probably measure it before you leave.
Did you ever see Lee taking home anything with him from the Texas Book
Depository Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; never did.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him taking a package home with him?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean on the 22d?
Mr. BALL. On the 22d, that day.
Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before
noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that
day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say,
for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and
I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back
and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the
order.
Mr. BALL. That was the last time you saw him all day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to him again?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you wear a coat or jacket to work that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. It was chilly, was it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. BALL. When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where
was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to
you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from
the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step
and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right
over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over
toward more the wall also.
Mr. BALL. Usually when Lee walked in the Building in the morning, when
you came to work with him where did he go, do you know?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. He just walked in, say, like inside the Building,
and like I say I always went and put my lunch up and hang my jacket or
coat up, whichever I wore, and he was usually around there on the first
floor there after some of them put their lunch in the refrigerator, so
far as that I never paid too much attention to what he usually did.
Mr. BALL. You usually walked in together?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you separated after you got in there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; after we got into the interior I just went and put my
lunch up.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Lee kept his lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him come into the Building on other days
than the days that he rode with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean did I ever see him come in the Building when he
rode with me?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because when he rode with me we always walked
together.
Mr. BALL. No; other than when he rode with you.
Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, other than when he rode with me. No, sir; I didn't.
The CHAIRMAN. Did he have any particular associates around there that
you knew of?
Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I knew of. I say he didn't mingle with other guys
like the rest of us. The rest of us usually joked back and forth with
practically everybody who worked around there. But he usually kept to
himself, that was the only time he talked to anybody was when he wanted
to know something about a book or something like that.
Mr. BALL. We have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it
shows the President's car going by.
Now, take a look at that picture. Can you see your picture any place
there?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't, because I was back up in this more or
less black area here.
Mr. BALL. I see.
Mr. FRAZIER. Because Billy, like I say, is two or three steps down in
front of me.
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this fellow?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is Billy, that is Billy Lovelady.
Mr. BALL. Billy?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Let's take a marker and make an arrow down that way. That
mark is Billy Lovelady?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is where you told us you were standing a moment ago.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. In front of you to the right over to the wall?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Is this a Commission exhibit?
We will make this a Commission Exhibit No. 369.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 369 for
identification.)
Mr. BALL. That is written in. The arrow marks Billy Lovelady on
Commission's Exhibit No. 369.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any lockers there in which you put your
clothes, and so forth?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we don't.
(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. FRAZIER. Some boys hang their jackets up in there in that little
domino room where they were going to play dominoes. But here lately,
I have been wondering, you know, most of us wear our jackets, what we
have on, because if you are going out there on a dock in the cold air
we usually keep them on.
The CHAIRMAN. I see.
Mr. BALL. On Thursday afternoon when you went home, drove on home, did
he carry any package with him?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or coat on him?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket or coat did he have?
Mr. FRAZIER. That, you know, like I say gray jacket.
Mr. BALL. That same gray jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Now, I can be frank with you, I had seen him
wear that jacket several times, because it is cool type like when you
keep a jacket on all day, if you are working on outside or something
like that, you wouldn't go outside with just a plain shirt on.
Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator, have you any questions you would like to ask?