Mr. SPECTER. For these purposes, please tell us whatever you are
referring to, whatever its source, hearsay or not.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Okay; fine. That when they examined that vehicle that
night, when it was brought back to Washington, D.C., two pieces of a
bullet or bullets were found on the passenger side on the floor of the
front seat.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe those?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that, or what report?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Boring--Floyd Boring.
Mr. SPECTER. Who is Mr. Boring?
Mr. KELLERMAN. He is also an assistant special agent in charge.
Mr. SPECTER. Is he currently with the Secret Service?
Mr. KELLERMAN. He is currently with the Secret Service at the White
House; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Were those two pieces of bullet described with more
particularity than you have mentioned?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; they were not.
Mr. SPECTER. Were they described as fragments of bullets as
distinguished from whole bullets?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. But do you have any information as to the size of the
fragments?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other pieces of evidence in the car that you
were referring to there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The only other piece of evidence in the car was
President Kennedy's skull.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Do you know what was done with those fragments
that Mr. Boring told you about?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not those were turned over to the
FBI?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I would say they were probably turned over to the FBI;
yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And why would you say they probably were?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Because they were assigned to going over the car.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it their procedure to turn over whatever they found to
the FBI?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything special in the nature of the skull
which you just mentioned which would have any bearing on the number of
shots fired in this assassination?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, but it would be one shell, one shot.
Mr. SPECTER. That would be your conclusion?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That would be my conclusion.
Mr. SPECTER. That it would take one shot to have separated that portion
of skull?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile found on a stretcher in Dallas.
Will you elaborate on what you were referring to there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was given, I believe, in your statements there, to
a Special Agent Johnsen. I haven't seen this missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you referring there to the missile which was found on
the stretcher and to the sequence of events from which it was traced
back to one of the two victims of this shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any more knowledge about that other than that
which you have already mentioned?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile which was not removed from
Governor Connally. Specifically, what did you refer to there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There was in the early--this was on the day in Parkland
Memorial Hospital, and this information comes from Dr. George Burkley,
the President's physician, when, I believe, I asked him the condition
of Governor Connally, and have they removed the bullet from him.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Burkley say?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Dr. Burkley said that to his knowledge he still has the
bullet in him.
Mr. SPECTER. And at what time on November 22 was that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was after we got into the hospital after the
shooting, sir, between then and 2 o'clock.
Mr. SPECTER. So that the operation on Governor Connally had not been
completed at that point?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any additional knowledge about any bullet in
Governor Connally?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told us about all of the facts which you took
into account in your conclusion that there were more than three shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, by way of
explanation or elaboration, to tell us which might be helpful with
respect to your conclusion based on all of these items which you have
described to us that there were more than three shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Gentlemen, I think if you would view the films yourself
you may come up with a little different answer.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, have you viewed the films, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I have; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there something special in your viewing of the films
which led you to believe that there were more than three shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it doesn't point out more than three shots, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Which films are you referring to?
Mr. KELLERMAN. These are the colored ones that were taken on the right
side.
Mr. SPECTER. Taken by Mr. Abraham Zapruder?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. You are not familiar with the photographer?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I am not.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, can you describe the view you say is from the
right-hand side of the automobile?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. So that would be on the side of the road where the Texas
School Book Depository Building was?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And approximately where did those pictures begin and end?
Mr. KELLERMAN. These pictures began as we turned off Houston Street
onto Elm.
Mr. SPECTER. And where did they end?
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we are, just before we are, going into the viaduct.
Mr. SPECTER. Were those black and white or in color?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; they were colored.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen any other films of the assassination?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I saw a black-and-white, but I didn't--I saw a
black-and-white film. However, I didn't get enough out of it there
to----
Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding any further, I would like to move for
the introduction in evidence of Exhibit 351.
Representative FORD. It is approved.
(The windshield referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 351 for
identification and was received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything at all to add which you think might
be helpful, Mr. Kellerman, on the question of how many shots were
fired, or have you told us everything you have in mind on that question?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I have, Mr. Specter.
Senator COOPER. What was the name of the special agent driving the
car--the President's car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. William Greer.
Senator COOPER. He was the one to whom you spoke when you heard the
report?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Has he ever expressed any opinion to you as to the
number of shots that were fired?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. I think we are all of the opinion, Senator,
that we know of three.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 347,
will you pinpoint as precisely as you can on that aerial shot, aerial
picture, where the President's car was at the time of the first shot?
And mark that, if you would, please, with an "X" in red pencil.
Mr. KELLERMAN. My guess would be right in here, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark as closely as you can where the
President's car was at the time of the second shot and mark that with a
"Y" in red.
(Mr. Kellerman marking the picture.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have marked the cars being in approximately the
middle of the road; is that accurate, as you recollect it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the general procedure, Mr. Specter; they were
traveling in the center of the road.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the time of the third shot, would
your marking be any different from the "Y" position?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it would not.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, from the time of the shooting until the time the
automobile arrived at Parkland Hospital, did anyone in the President's
car say anything that you have not already told us about?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, there is a report from the Federal Bureau
of Investigation designated "Bureau File No. 105"--I believe there is
an "S", although it is somewhat illegible on my copy--"S2555, report
of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling," dated December 10, 1963, which
refers to an interview of you by Special Agent Francis X. O'Neill, Jr.,
and James W. Sibert, in which the following is set forth:
"He"--and this obviously refers to you--"advised that he heard a shot
and immediately turned around looking past Governor Connally who was
seated directly in back of him, to the President. He observed the
President slumped forward and heard him say 'get me to a hospital.'
Mr. Kellerman then heard Mrs. Kennedy say, 'Oh, no,' as the President
leaned toward her." That is the end of the quotation. My question is:
Did you hear him; did you hear President Kennedy say, "Get me to a
hospital"?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no"?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge or explanation as to why you
would have been so quoted in the report of the FBI?
Mr. KELLERMAN. When these two gentlemen talked to me, I don't know
where they got those quotes, because the only two things that I told
them, they were interested in what I heard from the people in the back
seat, and one said "my God, I have been hit," which was President
Kennedy, and Mrs. Kennedy said, "What are they doing to you?"
Mr. SPECTER. You were interviewed, however, by Mr. O'Neill and Mr.
Sibert on November 22, 1963?
Mr. KELLERMAN. November what?
Mr. SPECTER. November 22.
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. November 22 is when they were in the morgue with me.
They interviewed me in the office that--it was around the 27th. This
was after the funeral.
Mr. SPECTER. Did they have any conversation with you about these events
in the morgue?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a discussion with either of those gentlemen
about anything while you were at the morgue on November 22?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The only thing I can recall discussionwise--I just
forget which one it was, one of the two--this was before we even knew
that a shell had been found from the hole in the President's shoulder.
We couldn't determine what happened to it. They couldn't find it in the
morgue; they couldn't find any leeway as to whatever happened to the
shell when it hit the President's shoulder; where did it go. So our
contention was that while he was on the stretcher in Dallas, and the
neurosurgeon was working over him no doubt with pressure on the heart,
this thing worked itself out.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say "our contention," what do you mean by that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. One of these agents--I forget which one it was; it could
have been Sibert or O'Neill, but I am not sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Did what?
Mr. KELLERMAN. We--our discussion or my discussion.
Mr. SPECTER. You had a discussion and when you say "our contention" by
that do you mean that was the conclusion you came to?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Conclusion--that is right, sir--as to where this bullet
went into the shoulder and where did it go.
Mr. SPECTER. While you are on that subject, was there any conversation
at the time of the autopsy on that matter itself?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate to the Commission the nature of that
conversation and the parties to it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There were three gentlemen who were performing this
autopsy. A Colonel Finck--during the examination of the President,
from the hole that was in his shoulder, and with a probe, and we were
standing right alongside of him, he is probing inside the shoulder with
his instrument and I said, "Colonel, where did it go?" He said, "There
are no lanes for an outlet of this entry in this man's shoulder."
Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything in response to that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I said, "Colonel, would it have been possible that while
he was on the stretcher in Dallas that it works itself out?" And he
said, "Yes."
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any additional conversation between you and
Colonel Finck at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not on that point; no, sir; not on that point.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation of any sort between you and
Colonel Finck which would be helpful to us here?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, from Humes, who was the other gentleman out there,
from the entry of the skull, from this hole here.
Mr. SPECTER. You are now referring to the hole which you describe being
below the missing part of the skull?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was confirmed that the entry of the shell
here went right through the top and removed that piece of the skull.
Mr. SPECTER. And who confirmed that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. One of the three gentlemen; I don't recall.
Mr. SPECTER. You don't recall which one, but it was one of the three
doctors doing the autopsy?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. So you are saying it confirmed that the hole that was
below the piece of skull that was removed, was the point of entry of
the one bullet which then passed up through the head and took off the
skull?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Then that was all done by one bullet, based on what you
are telling us at this moment?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. From the confirmation that one of the three doctors made?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there any other conversation between you and
Colonel Finck or Commander Humes----
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. At that time, which was important on the subject we are
discussing?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Actually, from all the X-rays that were taken, and we
viewed them all together; when I say "we," I am saying the medical
people who were in the morgue at the time, the two Bureau agents,
myself, and also Mr. Greer, who was in there with me, naturally, they
were looking for pieces of fragmentation of this bullet. There was
none; only one piece to my knowledge. That was removed inside above the
eye, the right eye.
Mr. SPECTER. You have now told us all about the conversations between
you and Colonel Finck and Commander Humes and anyone else at the
autopsy which are important on the positions of the hole and the wounds
in the head?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other conversation with either Special
Agent O'Neill or Special Agent Sibert of the FBI on November 22, 1963,
other than your conversations about the wounds on President Kennedy?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, while we are discussing this in
relationship to your conversations with Special Agents O'Neill and
Sibert, were there any other comments made by anybody else present
at the autopsy about the path of the bullet into Mr. Kennedy's back,
relating to whether there was any point of exit or anything of that
sort?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Colonel Finck did all the talking, sir. He was the only
one.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told us everything Colonel Finck said about
that subject?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. So that there is nothing that was said on that subject
other than what you have already told us about?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; that is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, I have read to you a part of what Special
Agents O'Neill and Sibert have attributed to you in an interview which
they have written about on November 22, 1963. Referring to that in
the portion which I have read to you and which I will reread, I want
you to direct your attention to the issue about which way you turned.
The report states, "He advised he heard a shot and immediately turned
around looking past Governor Connally who was seated directly in back
of him to the President."
Now, did that describe a turn to the right or to the left? This is a
difficult question. Let me interject one thing. We are presupposing
here, based on your testimony, that you did not discuss with Special
Agents O'Neill or Sibert these specific events on November 22, to the
best of your recollection as we sit here today.
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. So that the question really goes to a situation where
perhaps they have an inaccurate day or your recollection is inaccurate
as to some of the things you might have told them. So, my prefatory
question would be whether that is an accurate statement and is
something you told them at some time.
Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't believe I did. I think I will stand on my
original statement.
Representative FORD. The original statement you made here today?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; very much.
Mr. SPECTER. So that the statement I just read to you, so far as your
best----