Mr. SPECTER. Without any--finish your answer.
Mr. KELLERMAN. On the inside.
Mr. SPECTER. No; before. It is a smooth surface without any what?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Without any crack lines.
Mr. SPECTER. On the outside?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That can be felt.
Mr. SPECTER. On the outside?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; on the outside of the windshield.
Mr. SPECTER. Feel the inside and tell us, first of all, whether it is
the same or different from the way you touched it on November 27?
Mr. KELLERMAN. On November 27, when I felt the inside of this impact
area, I was convinced that I could--that I felt an opening in one of
these lines, which was indicative to me that the blow was struck from
the inside of the car on this windshield.
Mr. SPECTER. Does it feel the same to you today as it did on or about
November 27?
Mr. KELLERMAN. As a matter of fact, it feels rather smooth today.
Mr. SPECTER. It feels somewhat differently today than it felt before?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; it does.
Representative FORD. Could we ask when the red circle was placed on the
windshield, if you know?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I do not know.
Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the shattering which existed on or about
November 27, which is within the red circle, could that condition have
existed on November 22 after the assassination?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Absolutely not. I don't think so.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the reason for your expressing your thought that
it could not have existed?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This automobile is never out of sight of any agent, or
even a police officer, before it is used--used or afterward. Let me
clarify that. The agent that accompanied these cars to Dallas was with
the vehicles from the time they left Washington aboard this plane.
One of his many duties outside of keeping it, having this car run
perfectly, is that all the equipment is in perfect condition.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what you are saying, then, is there had
been no crack in the windshield prior to the time of the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. My next question is: Did you observe any crack in the
windshield after the shooting on November 22?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to look for or examine for any
crack in the windshield after the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I had no occasion whatsoever.
Mr. SPECTER. If the crack in the windshield had been as prominent as it
was on or about November 27, 1963, would you have observed it after the
shooting on November 22?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I don't think I would have.
Senator COOPER. Is it correct then to say that you didn't find any
occasion to examine the windshield after you heard the shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, I did not have the opportunity.
Mr. SPECTER. And after the President was removed from the automobile,
did you ever go back and examine the car, including the windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not in Dallas; no, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. To be absolutely certain our record is straight on this
point, when you observed this windshield on or about November 27, 1963,
was the windshield in or out of the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It was in the car. This was the same day they were going
to remove it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did they remove it later that day, to your knowledge?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; they did, and the mechanics were there.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you there at the time this was removed?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. But the mechanics had arrived preparatory to removing it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, we intended to describe the windshield
in detail prior to your mentioning it, but to go back to your train
of thought, you had brought up the windshield in response to my
question about whether you had told us everything that you had in mind
when you expressed the view that there were more than three shots.
Now, remaining on the subject of the windshield, what fact about the
windshield was important in your mind when you expressed the view that
there must have been more than three shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I may be a little--I am not ahead of myself in your
investigation of this case, but I think with the evidence that you
all have on the numbers, on the pieces of evidence that were found in
the car, plus the fact that you have a missile that was received from
Dallas, from one of the stretchers, plus the fact of the missile that,
to my knowledge, hasn't been removed from Governor Connally--it may
have, I don't know--count up to more than three to me, gentlemen.
Mr. SPECTER. All right; fine. But focusing just a moment on the
windshield in and of itself, is there any physical factor or
characteristic of the windshield other than those already described for
the record which has any bearing on your conclusion about the number of
shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it does not.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving on to the other pieces of evidence which you
have just described, you referred to pieces of evidence in the car.
What did you mean when you made that reference, sir?