Pall Mall, Sunday, Dec. 15th, 1782.
My dear Brother,
I am just returned from Lord Shelburne's. He appointed me
yesterday to be with him this morning, and I have had a pretty
long conversation with him on the subject of Ireland. But it was
for the most part so very general, that it is not easy to reduce
it to writing.
I began by stating under two distinct heads the original object
of my being sent here, and what had since happened. First, that
I had been commissioned to explain the grounds on which you had
wished to stand against further concessions, your reasons for
imagining it doubtful whether that ground could be maintained,
and your certain conviction that it could be done only by an
immediate dissolution of Parliament. The second point I said
was, that, by what had since happened, you apprehended that
something further was made necessary, and this was the more
evident from the manner in which every one had taken up the
business in Ireland.
These two points, of course, led us into a very wide field of
conversation. As to the dissolution, I said you certainly would
not press the Ministry for any more on the subject, than that,
even with a peace, and a remedy to the business of the King's
Bench, it should not be delayed beyond the end of January. The
great object, he said, was at all events not to meet till
October. My answer was, that to you, who were personally to meet
the difficulties of an earlier meeting, they certainly would
appear quite as strong as they could to him sitting at a
distance and speculating upon them. It was therefore by no means
a thing to be wished by you, but an evil which circumstances
might render necessary. This led me to a mention of several
causes of discontent which might arise or be sought for, and
which could only be prevented by the Irish Parliament; such as
an infringement, for instance, of the East India monopoly. We
went, at different periods of the conversation, a good deal into
this business. He threw out an idea, which he said had been
often mentioned, and for which a foundation was certainly laid
in the last resolution of the English Houses on Irish affairs,
if we chose to pursue it. This was the fixing, by a sort of
treaty, a commercial system between the two countries, and a
proportionable contribution to be paid by Ireland for the
general protection of the empire.
When I mentioned the objection to this, founded on the
impossibility that Ireland could in her present situation
contribute such a quota as would hereafter be even infinitely
too small for her share, he answered it by stating the
possibility of having a tax on some particular article or
description of articles applicable to this purpose, which might
be so fixed as to be small at present, very small if necessary,
but which might increase with the wealth and commerce of
Ireland. On this idea of a settlement, our conversation dwelt a
good deal. I expressed my opinion that it would be, in many
points of view, a measure of dignity and weight, and
particularly advantageous to both countries, as it would leave
no ground of contest unexplained. But at the same time I thought
the present moment unfavourable for such a step, because it
ought not to be taken till Government in Ireland recovered its
energy; otherwise, I stated that the wildest idea that could be
broached in a newspaper would be adopted by those in whom the
real Government of the country resides at the present moment;
that, till the Volunteers have in some degree subsided, your
Government could only subsist by expedients, painful as such an
idea must be to your feelings. I stated also, that if this was
to be held out to the country as the satisfaction and security
to which they were to look, it would set all their heads afloat
forming systems of trade and government; and that it would make
the spring meeting absolutely necessary, from the impatience it
would excite and the necessity of its being done by Parliament.
From this we went into the present situation of your Government.
Upon this he desired to explain himself, and that I would state
to you that he was _inclined to think_, not that he _thought_,
your Government would go on more easily there than you expected.
He alluded to De Retz's maxim: "_Le peuple ne se soulève jamais
que quand on l'opprime_." To the truth of this I agreed
perfectly, but said that the people there are really oppressed,
and miserable to a degree I had not at all conceived till I went
into the country. That nothing was more usual than for the
people to mistake the cause of grievances which they really
feel, and that this I apprehended to be the case there. In that
case, he said, the remedy was at hand; for that an extended
commerce and the wisdom of internal regulations, would relieve
the evil, and be a pleasant task to your Government. I answered
that such remedies must be gradual, while the situation of
Ireland was pressing at this moment; and that perhaps nothing
had contributed more to the discontents now prevalent, than the
foolish expectations of wealth to be poured like a torrent into
the country by a free trade. To this he agreed, but said that
laws might certainly be devised by which such remedies might be
brought forward and hastened. Then he went into the nature of
absentee laws. Direct absentee taxes were, he said, highly
objectionable, but many things might be thought of which would
produce the effect so reasonably to be wished, that the money
arising from land in Ireland should not be spent elsewhere. All
methods to raise the value of that land would operate to that
effect; because, when the person residing in England saw the
means of getting an equivalent, he would certainly prefer an
estate at his own door to one in Ireland. Still, however, this
would be gradual.
With respect to the Volunteer force, he apprehended less
embarrassment from them, because he could not believe that five
thousand of them would ever bring themselves to march ten miles
together. I said, perhaps not, but that they had each the means
of resisting the execution of any law they disliked in their own
places of residence; whilst your whole army did not amount,
without the Provincials, to six thousand men. And in time of
peace, the Provincials were to be disbanded, and only twelve
thousand men could be brought back upon the establishment. He
asked whether the Provincials could not be made permanent. I
said, I apprehended not, and that possibly the attempt would not
be wise; for that, although you had, by the most determined
perseverance and by an unremitted firmness, carried the point
with respect to their being raised, yet I thought that would be
sufficient to show the steadiness of Government, without seeking
unnecessary grounds of discontent.
There were many other general heads of Irish Government touched
upon in the course of the conversation, which I do not now
remember. He spoke to the reports about the situation of English
Government. I never heard any man, in the whole course of my
life, affirm any one thing more distinctly, positively, and
unequivocally, than he did, when he told me that Government were
upon a sure foundation here. He said that I was too wise to
expect him to explain to me upon what grounds he said this, but
that it was upon sure grounds; that there was a moral certainty,
and as a rational man he proceeded upon it. This language is the
more extraordinary, because the opinion of the world in general,
I might say of almost every man in London, is directly the
reverse. Either, therefore, Lord Shelburne is (not a dissembler,
but) the most abandoned and direct liar upon the face of the
earth, or he is deceived himself, too grossly to be imagined, or
the whole world besides is deceived. Which of these is the case,
time will show, and that only; but I cannot bring myself to
imagine that the first is. That he wishes you should believe him
secure, I can easily imagine, and that he wishes it very
strongly; but that he should therefore be induced to pledge
himself to so direct a falsehood, which he must know it was my
business to repeat to you, and yours to act upon, and which the
event of a few weeks must demonstrate to be false if it is so,
exceeds my utmost power of belief. That the Duke of Richmond
thinks as Lord Shelburne has expressed himself to me, is, I
apprehend, most probable, from the very strong compliments he
paid him and the flattering language he held to him in the House
of Lords on Friday. But this is mere conjecture. What is
certain, on the other hand, is that the explanation given by him
in the House of Lords of the American treaty does not tally with
that of Pitt, Townshend and Conway in the House of Commons, to
which nevertheless the three last have positively pledged their
faith and honour, that the Cabinet has been postponed because
Lord Shelburne was afraid to meet them, and that the report of
the day is that Lord Shelburne was outvoted there upon the
question of Gibraltar.
After we had gone over a great deal of conversation on these
subjects for above an hour and a half, he said that we seemed to
agree about all the points on which we had touched. I then
mentioned the two main objects--the Dissolution, and the Bill of
Satisfaction. To the dissolution, he said he imagined no
difficulty would be made to-day in the Cabinet which was to be
held; as to the other point, he saw much more objection. It cut
up the principle on which our stand had been made. People were
not ripe in England to go into the whole question again. The
moment a bill of that sort was proposed in the House of Commons,
every man would have to give his opinion on the effect of the
repeal, on the legal question, and on the right of internal and
external legislation. There never was a debate on Irish
questions in England that was not misrepresented; and this,
together with the acknowledgment of the principle of the
insufficiency of what was done last year, would put Mr. Flood on
excellent ground. To many of these objections I could not but
subscribe, for they strike me very strongly. I wished to know
from him his idea on the external legislation. He said he had
understood you, when you left England, that you was determined
never to cede that. I said, that as his Lordship referred to
conversations to which I was no party, I could only say that I
had understood you very differently. The distinction between
external and internal, he said, was a bad one, as applied to
Ireland. It was applied by Fox, who took it from Lord Chatham,
by whom it had been adopted, for want of a better expression, in
the case of America. I said, the distinction I made was a clear
one--that England could, in her own ports, restrain as she
pleased the commerce of Ireland; but that it was not in the
power of Government, after what had been done (whether wisely or
not), to enforce any English Act which was to be executed in
Ireland. He said, that this brought us back to the idea of a
settlement; and that he should be curious, and indeed it was
necessary to the subject, to know what questions about English
Acts concerning trade, and what other commercial points would
come into discussion in such a settlement. At the same time, he
said, the subject was one of those which required conversing
with people of information, and which, nevertheless, if any one
was consulted upon it, would set the heads of every one afloat.
However, he wished I would turn my thoughts to it, and let him
see the principal points. I then pressed him again upon the head
of your Bill; I thought it right to say that I was satisfied on
every other head, but that this pressed strongly on my mind. All
I wished was, that he would allow me to state to you the
difficulties, such as he had mentioned them; but at the same
time, to say, that they were overbalanced by an absolute
necessity. He said, that he would not suppose that they could be
overbalanced.
While I write this, I receive your despatches of the 12th
instant. I have immediately enclosed your letter to Townshend,
with one from myself, of which I send you a copy, and wait his
answer with impatience. I was going on, when I was interrupted
by your letters, to state to you, that my conversation with Lord
Shelburne closed with his saying that the difficulties were
capital, and that he could not believe that they could be
overbalanced. I then observed, that a Cabinet was, I understood,
to be held to-day. He said yes, and at eleven, and that it was
then half-past ten, and therefore I must excuse him. As I had
been there above an hour and a half, I could not with any
propriety stay any longer.
According to Townshend's directions to me last night, I staid at
home the whole morning, under the idea that I was to be sent
for, as it was so directed in the King's approbation for the
Cabinet being held, which Townshend showed me. Why this was not
done, whether the Cabinet has not been held, or whether Lord
Shelburne thought he had received information enough for all, I
cannot pretend to say. It is certainly unnecessary for me to
observe, that the whole of this magnificent idea about a
settlement was most probably intended to draw your attention off
from the Bill you have proposed. I could do no otherwise than
acquiesce in sending it over to you, as I had already stated my
belief, confirmed so fully by your authority, that your proposal
was necessary, and to the adoption of it, on this ground, I
meant, if I could, to have pledged him by my last question; and
although he did not accede to what I then asked, yet I think I
should not have been justified in not agreeing to state to you
his objections--which certainly have their weight, especially as
he proposed an expedient in the room of yours, though
insufficient and improper for the reasons which, as I told you
above, I mentioned to him. I forgot to state in its proper place
that I reminded him of the danger which was almost inevitable,
that some enemy to Government would take the business up, if not
immediately done by Ministry themselves.
Half-past Eleven, P.M.
I have just received the enclosed answer from Townshend; and
though it contains nothing, yet I cannot but feel too much for
your impatience to delay till Wednesday night the acknowledging
your despatches, and the assuring you that there shall be no
remissness whatever on my part to follow up this business as
much as possible, and to press it forward in this strange scene
of procrastination. Nothing can make me happier than your
approbation of my conduct, and your kind disposition to trust so
much to that most unfeigned affection with which I am,
My dearest brother,
Ever yours,
W. W. Grenville.
P.S.--I mean to-morrow to write to Lord Shelburne, stating that
you have sent over a fresh despatch to Mr. Townshend, and
referring him to that for the absolute necessity of adopting
your proposal, which still leaves room for his settlement, if it
is thought proper and expedient. The one will remove the present
difficulty, the other prevent the rise of any fresh source of
discord. But how far the latter can or ought at this time to be
taken up, is with me very doubtful. If I get on Wednesday such
an answer as I wish, you shall see me very soon.