Mr. MOULDER. Ask the next question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. LAWRIE. What was the question?
Mr. MOULDER. You haven’t answered it.
Mr. LAWRIE. I am asking the question.
Mr. MOULDER. You made a statement you were refusing to answer
without giving the legal reason for refusing to answer. I am directing
the examiner to proceed with the next question because you have refused
to answer it without cause.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Barbara Hartle?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. LAWRIE. I will have to state that I didn’t understand the
previous question.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you understand the present question?
Mr. WHEELER. I think the record will show that my question was
asked three times.
The question now is: Are you acquainted with Mrs. Barbara Hartle?
Mr. LAWRIE. Well, with reference to the last two questions, I
am----
Mr. MOULDER. We are not making reference to the last two
questions. He has asked you a simple question now, and you are directed
to answer.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. LAWRIE. With reference to that question on Barbara Hartle
and the previous question, I am going to invoke both the first and the
fifth amendment which states that an individual is not compelled to
be a witness against himself and shall not be deprived of liberty or
property without due process of law.
Mr. MOULDER. The next question, please, Mr. Wheeler.
Mr. WHEELER. Where are you presently employed?
Mr. LAWRIE. I am going to answer that question in this way:
During the time the committee was here--I believe it was last June--I
read in the newspapers where a number of workers, men and women, lost
their jobs.
Mr. MOULDER. You are not responding to the question. You must
be responsive to the question and not take the question as an excuse
for making a speech.
Now the question is: Where are you now employed? Do you decline to
answer?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. MOULDER. Give him a reasonable time to decline or answer,
and proceed with the next question.
Mr. LAWRIE. At this time I am going to request that I be
allowed to talk to my attorney.
Mr. MOULDER. Very well. You will have an opportunity to confer
with your attorney.
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. WHEELER. Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Witness?
Mr. LAWRIE. I am ready to proceed.
I would like to know if I can state my reasons for not answering this
question.
Mr. MOULDER. Certainly, if it is not at great length in the
form of a speech. Or, you may decline to answer claiming and invoking
the first amendment, as you have.
Mr. LAWRIE. I don’t think that it will be long, but that is my
opinion.
I state again, as I stated before, because of many workers losing their
jobs because they were mentioned by this committee or in some subpena,
I believe that I have the right to earn a living, and that this
committee may be responsible for my losing my job to make a living.
And I would like to decline from answering that question, but if the
committee compels me to, I will.
Mr. VELDE. In that connection, have you ever made a living by
being a member of the Communist Party? Has the Communist Party paid you
anything for being a member of it?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. LAWRIE. I am going to refuse to answer any questions that
refer to communism--in this committee under the fifth amendment.
Mr. WHEELER. Where are you presently employed?
Mr. LAWRIE. I am going to make the same statement as I made
before, that, due to the fact that many working people were fired from
their jobs at the last hearing, that I am liable to the same thing
happening to me, lose my source of income and----
Mr. WHEELER. Were you fired from your job after the hearings
here last June?
Mr. LAWRIE. No, not I, because I wasn’t here.
Mr. WHEELER. Where were you?
Mr. LAWRIE. I was working.
Mr. WHEELER. Where?
Mr. LAWRIE. I am going to have to speak to my counsel for a
second.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. WHEELER. Were you on an underground assignment at that
time for the Communist Party?
Mr. LAWRIE. I said I would like to speak to my counsel at the
present time.
Mr. MOULDER. You may confer with your counsel.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. LAWRIE. I am through conferring with counsel.
It seems to me that there are two questions. One is where I am working
now. And the other is did I have anything to do with the Communist
underground.
Mr. WHEELER. You weren’t responsive to the first question. We
are now proceeding along with the interrogation to another question.
Mr. LAWRIE. Which question are you asking now?
Mr. WHEELER. I am asking if you were on an underground
assignment for the Communist Party last June.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. LAWRIE. Well, if it will help the committee any, as I said
in the beginning, that any and all questions that I am going to have
to--due to the many oppressive and repressive laws, both on the Federal
and State level, I am going to have to invoke the first amendment and
the fifth amendment, which have to do with communism or anything of
that category.
Mr. WHEELER. Where were you last June? What part of the
country? Where were you residing?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. WHEELER. Let the record show that he is conferring with
counsel.
Mr. LAWRIE. I was in the State of Washington.
Mr. WHEELER. What part of Washington?
Mr. LAWRIE. I would say it was Everett.
Mr. WHEELER. Now, Mrs. Hartle identified you as organizational
secretary of the central region of the Communist Party during some time
in the last few years.
Mr. LAWRIE. Are you referring to a possible future Harvey
Matusow, one that swears one thing one day and then, the next day,
swears something else?
Mr. MOULDER. But you are refusing to deny or affirm the
charges. You have the opportunity to show that Barbara Hartle, referred
to by you as a so-called Matusow, was telling a falsehood. But you
are refusing to do that. You refuse to say whether she is telling a
falsehood or telling the truth.
Mr. LAWRIE. If it will help this committee any, as I stated
before, that, due to the many oppressive and repressive laws, both
on the Federal and State level, I am going to decline to answer that
question under the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. MOULDER. Proceed with the next question.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the Communist Party today?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. LAWRIE. The same answer.
Mr. WHEELER. No further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. VELDE. I do want to make this observation. Here again we
have a witness who follows the usual line of the Communist Party.
It is my belief that the witness, from his behavior on the witness
stand, is presently engaged in Communist Party activities. I feel it is
improbable that you will change your mind from the attitude you have
taken.
I very much regret to say that I do feel you are engaged at the present
time in activities which are harmful to the preservation of our
constitutional form of government.
Mr. MOULDER. May I ask did you ever answer the question as to
where you were now employed?
Was that question ever answered?
Mr. WHEELER. No.
Mr. MOULDER. Then I ask you that question. Where are you now
employed?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. LAWRIE. I am employed at the present time by the
Weyerhauser Timber Co.
Mr. MOULDER. The witness is excused.
(Whereupon the witness was excused.)
Mr. MOULDER. Call the next witness.
Mr. WHEELER. Edward Brook Carmichael.
Mr. MOULDER. Hold up your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give
before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you, God?
Mr. CARMICHAEL. I do.
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD BROOK CARMICHAEL, JR., ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
SARAH H. LESSER
Mr. WHEELER. Will the witness state his full name, please?
Mr. CARMICHAEL. Edward Brook Carmichael, Jr.
Mr. WHEELER. And where do you reside, Mr. Carmichael?
Mr. CARMICHAEL. At Monroe.
Mr. WHEELER. Monroe, Wash.?
Mr. CARMICHAEL. Monroe, Wash.
Mr. WHEELER. Where were you born and when?
Mr. CARMICHAEL. In Washington.
Mr. WHEELER. What date?
Mr. CARMICHAEL. 1917.
Mr. MOULDER. Are you represented by counsel who appears now
before the committee?
Mr. CARMICHAEL. Yes.
Mr. MOULDER. Would your attorney please state her name?
Miss LESSER. My name is Sarah H. Lesser, and I am a member of
the Seattle bar.
Mr. WHEELER. Where are you presently employed?
Mr. CARMICHAEL. Washington State Reformatory at Monroe.
Mr. WHEELER. What is your position there?
Mr. CARMICHAEL. Supervisory cook.
Mr. WHEELER. How long have you been so employed?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. Four years.
Mr. WHEELER. Would you advise the committee of your
educational background?
Mr. CARMICHAEL. High-school graduate.
Mr. WHEELER. Of what school, please?
Mr. CARMICHAEL. Sultan Union High School.
Mr. WHEELER. How were you employed prior to your employment by
the Washington State Reformatory at Monroe?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. By the privilege granted me under the fifth
amendment, I decline to answer that question.
Mr. WHEELER. On all employment prior to the time you went to
work with the State or for the State of Washington?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. For the same reason, I decline to answer.
Mr. WHEELER. In what year did you graduate from high school?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. 1935.
Mr. WHEELER. You are pleading the fifth amendment on the
question of all employment from 1935 to 1951? Am I correct in that?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. That is correct.
Mr. WHEELER. Have you traveled outside of the United States?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reasons as
stated before.
Mr. WHEELER. Have you served in the Armed Forces of the United
States?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. Yes.
Mr. WHEELER. During what period of time?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. From April 1945, until August 1946.
Mr. WHEELER. Did you receive an honorable discharge?
Mr. CARMICHAEL. Yes.
Mr. WHEELER. Have you served in the armed forces of any
country other than the United States?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. I will decline to answer that for the same
reasons as stated before.
Mr. WHEELER. Is it a fact that you were a member of the
Abraham Lincoln Brigade in Spain?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. The answer is the same as before.
Mr. VELDE. Mr. Chairman, I think it would be appropriate at
this point to place in the record that the Abraham Lincoln Brigade
has been cited by the Attorney General and by the House Committee
on Un-American Activities and by various other committees as being
subversive.
Mr. WHEELER. I hand you a passport application signed by E.
Brook Carmichael, and it was subscribed to and sworn to on the 30th day
of June 1937. Did you execute this application?
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. WHEELER. Would you look at the second page and advise the
committee whether or not that is your signature? It is about halfway
down.
(The witness examines the document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reason.
Mr. WHEELER. You will notice a photograph on the second page.
Is that a photograph you submitted for the application?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reason.
Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce this
document as Carmichael Exhibit No. 1.
Mr. MOULDER. It is so admitted.
[Illustration: CARMICHAEL EXHIBIT NO. 1]
(The document above referred to, marked “Carmichael Exhibit No. 1,” for
identification, is filed herewith and made a part of the record.)
[Illustration]
Mr. MOULDER. Is that a picture of you on that document?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer on the grounds stated
before.
Mr. WHEELER. Have you ever been expelled from a union for
Communist Party affiliations?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reasons.
Mr. WHEELER. Our records show that you were a member of the
regional committee, Northwest Region, 12th District, Communist Party,
as late as 1950. Is that correct?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer under the protection of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. WHEELER. Also a member of the Sultan Section 51. Is that
correct?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reason.
Mr. WHEELER. Also that you have been a member of the Communist
Party in this area, and a functionary on many occasions for the past 18
years. Is that correct?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reason.
Mr. WHEELER. When you became employed by the State of
Washington did you sign a loyalty oath of any kind?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reason.
Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.
Mr. MOULDER. Any questions, Mr. Velde?
Mr. VELDE. You have declined to answer whether or not you were
a member of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Is that right?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. I declined to answer for the same reason.
Mr. VELDE. Did you ever know Steve Nelson?
Steve Nelson, for your information, was a member of the Abraham Lincoln
Brigade and one of the Communist Party organizers from Alameda County,
Calif.
Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reasons.
Mr. VELDE. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARMICHAEL. I decline to answer for the same reason.
Mr. VELDE. No further questions.
Mr. MOULDER. The witness will be excused.
(Whereupon the witness was excused.)
Call the next witness, Mr. Wheeler.
Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Ed Carlson, please.
Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, because I do have quite a headache,
and it bothers me very badly, I wish to refrain from those snapping
pictures.
Mr. MOULDER. The photographers will not take pictures while he
is testifying.
Hold up your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give
before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. CARLSON. I do.