Mr. WHEELER. Will you state your full name.
Mr. CARLSON. Edwin A. Carlson.
Mr. WHEELER. I see you are represented by counsel. Will
counsel identify himself for the record?
Mr. SYKES. Jay G. Sykes.
Mr. WHEELER. When and where were you born, Mr. Carlson?
Mr. CARLSON. I was born in Grantsburg, Wis., 1909.
Mr. WHEELER. How long have you lived in the State of
Washington?
Mr. CARLSON. Since 1940.
Mr. WHEELER. And where did you live prior to 1940?
Mr. CARLSON. At Cloverton, Minn.
Mr. WHEELER. And what is your occupation?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. I am a machinist.
Mr. WHEELER. Being a machinist, are you affiliated with any
union, or are you a member of any union?
Mr. CARLSON. Because the answer to that question may tend
to incriminate me, I invoke the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution, and refuse to answer it.
Mr. WHEELER. Is it not true that you are it member of the
machinists union, A. F. of L.?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, I would like to explain that there
are 3 branches of the machinists union in the city of Seattle.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Which one do you mean?
Mr. WHEELER. Any one of the three.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. I must invoke the fifth amendment to that
question, and refuse to answer.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you presently employed?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. I am unemployed at the present time.
Mr. WHEELER. I would like to read a telegram. This telegram
was sent by one Ed Carlson, member of the machinists union, is so
identified, and appears in part 11 (appendix), page 6748, of the
hearings held here in June 1954. It is dated Seattle, Wash., June 19,
1954, and addressed to the Velde committee, Seattle.
DEAR SIRS: I see by the paper that Mrs. Hartle names one
Ed Carlson as a member of the Communist Party in the machinists
union. I presume I am the individual referred to. So that the
record is straight, let me insert this into the record for all to
see and hear.
It did not take me 20 years to decide that the Communist Party was
not the answer to the problems as I see them. In fact, I am very
nearly positive it was Mrs. Hartle who tried to persuade me to
reconsider my decision to discontinue my affiliations, which is
now approximately 5 years ago.
I do believe that my many friends and acquaintances are entitled
to this additional clarification of the facts.
Sincerely,
ED CARLSON,
_Member of Machinists Union_.
Did you send that telegram, Mr. Carlson?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Yes; I did.
Mr. WHEELER. Were you a member of the Communist Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Will you specify the date that you are referring
to?
Mr. WHEELER. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, I am not a member of the Communist
Party today. But in regards to whether I ever have been one, the answer
may tend to incriminate me, and I refuse to answer.
Mr. MOULDER. In other words, during the past 5 years, as I
understand the telegram, you have not been a member of the Communist
Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. MOULDER. In other words, 5 years ago you disassociated
yourself from any connection with the Communist Party movement. Is that
so? Approximately 5 years ago?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. MOULDER. It all amounts to the same thing since you
answered the question by simply saying that during the last 5 years you
have not been associated with the Communist Party, as I understand it
from your attempt or your endeavor to clear yourself here. And that I
would certainly like to see you do.
Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, the question of association is so
very broad that I feel that you should make that question more specific.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. MOULDER. By disassociating yourself it is not meant by
that if you happened to be around someone who might have been a member
of the Communist Party. I mean did you yourself, in your belief,
your philosophy, your way of thinking and your way of activities,
disassociate yourself from the Communist Party approximately 5 years
ago? Is that so?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, I never have--I did not participate
knowingly with the Communist Party during that period.
Mr. MOULDER. Are you now referring to the past 5 years?
Mr. CARLSON. That is correct.
Mr. MOULDER. May I ask you this question:
Is your attitude and opinion concerning Communist Party activities now
different than 5 years ago?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, I can’t specifically state what my
opinions are. I just am in utter confusion.
Mr. MOULDER. It is not the purpose of this committee, it is
not our intention, Mr. Velde and I or Mr. Wheeler, to confuse anyone or
to commit any injustice toward you.
I am impressed by your appearance and your endeavor to try to come
forward and make a clean statement or explanation. And I think it would
be to your benefit for you to do it for your own interest. I am sure it
would be.
You infer that maybe at one time you may have had some connection
with Communist Party activities. You probably have some reasonable
explanation for which you maybe couldn’t or wouldn’t necessarily be
criticized or condemned.
Mr. CARLSON. It is very hard for me to understand what you are
saying. Some of the words I do not catch.
Would you speak a little louder, please?
Mr. MOULDER. May I ask you this question:
Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. No.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you now believe in the Communist Party
philosophy or its objectives?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Well, Mr. Chairman, in the light of all the
testimony that I have read in the papers and heard, I really don’t know
what it is about, I don’t really know what they do stand for. I am
confused in my own mind.
Mr. VELDE. It is not the purpose or intention of this
committee, and I can very well speak for all of the members of the
committee, to get you into a position where you are in contempt of
Congress. I concur with Mr. Moulder in his statement a few moments
ago. I think that you do have a problem. I think that you are confused
about the situation. Nevertheless, you do have, in my opinion, some
information which would be valuable to this committee. At the same time
you could clear your own conscience, so to speak, if you would give us
the benefit of the information you have regarding your Communist Party
connections.
So I am going to ask, Mr. Chairman, that the witness be excused and be
given a chance to consult with his attorney and think the proposition
over, and possibly he may decide to return and give us the information
which we believe he has.
Mr. MOULDER. I think that is a splendid suggestion Mr. Velde
has made.
You will be excused until tomorrow morning. You think this over, and
in the meantime, if you wish to talk to any of the investigators or
counsel or any member of the committee, we would be happy to talk to
you. Give it serious thought.
You will be excused until 9 o’clock in the morning.
(Whereupon the witness was excused until 9 o’clock the following
morning.)
Mr. MOULDER. Call the next witness, Mr. Wheeler.
Mr. WHEELER. Edmund Kroener.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which
you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the
whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. KROENER. I do.
TESTIMONY OF EDMUND D. KROENER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, C. CALVERT
KNUDSEN
Mr. WHEELER. Will you state your full name, please?
Mr. KROENER. Edmund D. Kroener.
Mr. WHEELER. Will counsel for the witness identify himself for
the record?
Mr. KNUDSEN. C. Calvert Knudsen. And may the record show that
I am, Mr. Chairman, if you please, the treasurer of the Seattle Bar
Association, and, at the request of that association and at the request
of this gentleman, I am undertaking to represent him at this hearing
inasmuch as he is financially unable to obtain other counsel.
Mr. MOULDER. The record will so reflect the statement made by
counsel.
Mr. VELDE. May I make this remark?
In connection with our hearings last June it was mentioned several
times that the mere fact that an attorney represents a witness who
might be a fifth amendment witness should be no reflection whatsoever
on the attorney. And I am sure that is true of all the attorneys who
have appeared here today.
Mr. MOULDER. It is your duty to be here in the capacity in
which you appear here today, in the honor of your own profession.
Mr. KNUDSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. WHEELER. Will you spell your name, please?
Mr. KROENER. K-r-o-e-n-e-r.
Mr. WHEELER. Do you presently reside in Seattle?
Mr. KROENER. Yes.
Mr. WHEELER. What is your occupation, Mr. Kroener?
Mr. KROENER. Work as a machinist.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you presently employed?
Mr. KROENER. No; I am not.
Mr. WHEELER. Being a machinist, are you a member of any union?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. KROENER. I wish to invoke, on answering that, the fifth
amendment, on the grounds that it may incriminate me.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the International Association
of Machinists, A. F. of L.?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. WHEELER. Have they instituted charges against you to
remove you from membership in the union?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. WHEELER. What has been your educational background, Mr.
Kroener?
Mr. KROENER. First half year of the eighth grade of grammar
school.
Mr. WHEELER. In Seattle?
Mr. KROENER. Yes.
Mr. WHEELER. How have you been employed?
Mr. KROENER. When I was younger I worked in logging camps and
did odd jobs in the steel mills, and as a welder. And, oh, since about
1941 and 1942 I have worked in the machine trade.
Mr. WHEELER. In the machine trade?
Mr. KROENER. Yes.
Mr. WHEELER. For what companies have you worked as a machinist?
Mr. KROENER. I don’t remember all of them exactly, and I
couldn’t say the times I have worked for a number of the uptown shops
and marine yards in Seattle. Some of them have gone out of business.
Gibson’s has gone out of business. And I worked at Washington Iron
Works and marine yards around Seattle.
Mr. WHEELER. Do you know who just preceded you on the witness
stand?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. KROENER. I wish to again invoke the fifth amendment on the
grounds of self-incrimination.
Mr. WHEELER. Were you present in the hearing room when Mr.
Eugene Robel testified?
Mr. KROENER. I was present.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you acquainted with him?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. WHEELER. Were you present in the hearing room when Mr.
Harold Johnston testified?
Mr. KROENER. I was present.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you acquainted with Mr. Harold Johnston?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. WHEELER. Is it a fact that the three individuals I just
mentioned, along with you and other people, were members of a cell
within the machinists union?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment on the
grounds of self-incrimination.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you have any knowledge as to the action taken
by a machinists union referred to by Mr. Wheeler in expelling members
from that union where there is evidence of their Communist affiliations?
Mr. KROENER. I believe there may be some such program going
on, but I am not too well acquainted with it. So I couldn’t answer it
too clearly.
Mr. MOULDER. Is the reason why you refuse to answer because of
the fear you might be expelled from the union?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment on the
ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you have knowledge and information that the
union referred to is exercising its efforts to rid its ranks of persons
who are Communists?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. MOULDER. I hope the witness has contributed to the union’s
effort.
Mr. WHEELER. When and where you were born, Mr. Kroener?
Mr. KROENER. Seattle, Wash., April 8, 1920.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Barbara Hartle?
Mr. KROENER. Again I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. WHEELER. Did you know that Mrs. Hartle, in her testimony
as a witness before this committee in June 1954, identified you as a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. KROENER. Again I invoke the fifth amendment on the grounds
of self-incrimination.
Mr. WHEELER. Have no comment other than that concerning her
testimony?
Mr. KROENER. No.
Mr. VELDE. Mr. Wheeler, do you have the testimony of Mrs.
Hartle there?
Mr. WHEELER. I do, sir.
Mr. VELDE. Will you read it for the record, please?
Mr. WHEELER. Mrs. Hartle, during a portion of the testimony
discussing the industrial branch of the Communist Party, was questioned
by Mr. Tavenner:
Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not there was any
important function that Elmer Thrasher performed in the industrial
section of the party?
Mrs. HARTLE. He was chairman of a branch in the
industrial section, in the building trades. He was a member of one
of the building-trades unions--the carpenters union.
Another one whom I recall is Ed Kroener. He lived in the Duwamish
Bend area, in the Duwamish Bend housing project, with his wife,
Donna Kroener, who was a member of the south King region and the
Duwamish Bend Club, but he was a member of the industrial section
inasmuch as he was a member of the Machinists Union, Local No. 79.
Do you wish to comment on that testimony, Mr. Kroener?
Mr. KROENER. No.
Mr. VELDE. To what period of time was Mrs. Hartle referring?
Mr. WHEELER. To what period of time, Mr. Kroener, was she
referring?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment on the
grounds of self-incrimination.
Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Kroener, did you at any time participate as
an individual within the Progressive Party in 1948 in the State of
Washington?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment on the
grounds of self-incrimination.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the Communist Party today?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment on the
grounds of self-incrimination.
Mr. WHEELER. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MOULDER. Mr. Velde?
Mr. VELDE. I have just one brief question. How could your
acquaintanceship with Mrs. Hartle or Mr. Johnston or the other
witnesses whom you were asked about tend to incriminate you?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. KROENER. The answer to that question may open up a whole
field of other questions, and, therefore, I wish to invoke the fifth
amendment on the grounds of self-incrimination.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you have anything else you wish to say in
explanation of your presence or your appearance here?
Are you married?
Mr. KROENER. Yes.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you have a family?
Mr. KROENER. Yes.
Mr. MOULDER. Did you serve in the Armed Forces of the United
States?
Mr. KROENER. Yes.
Mr. MOULDER. In what capacity and what branch?
Mr. KROENER. I was in the Marine Corps, 1944, 1945, and 1946,
South Pacific and China.
Mr. MOULDER. Is there anything further you wish to say?
Mr. KROENER. That is all.
Mr. MOULDER. The witness is excused.
(Whereupon the witness was excused.)
The committee will stand recessed until tomorrow morning at 9 o’clock.
(Whereupon, at 4:57 p. m., the committee was recessed, to be reconvened
at 9 a. m., Friday, March 18, 1955.) [Blank Page]