Mr. Justice _Maule_. That is a question of law.
--That is a question I cannot presume to answer.
Mr. _Kelly_. As the gentleman has given me his doubts, I wished to know
the reason for them.--I have seized this vessel, because I conceived her
freight to be illegal.
Do you remember a vessel called the Gil Blas?--I have seen her.
Did she not land goods at the Gallinas?--Yes: if she is the vessel I
mean, she was commanded by a man of the name of Serjeant, and he landed
some goods there; he gave me to understand so.
Was the Gil Blas there at the time your vessel was there?--Yes.
And you did not think it necessary to seize the Gil Blas?--No.
Do you know for whom any goods were landed?--I am only speaking from
what I understood from him when I learned it. I do not know to whom he
delivered them; but he gave me to understand he sold them to Pedro
Blanco; but I was not present. I am only speaking to my belief.
Did this man, about that time, make you any present?--Serjeant brought
out from Pedro Blanco a dozen fowls and a sheep for me, which I was very
glad of. I had never seen Pedro Blanco in my life. I had had no fresh
provisions for some time, and I was very glad to accept the fowls and
the sheep, which he told me had come from Marseilles in a vessel which
had taken some slaves. The sheep I gave to the Judge of the Mixed
Commission Court.
How long was the Gil Blas off there?--I do not know, perhaps a day.
Tell me the name of any other vessel that was out there landing goods,
which you did not seize?--I do not remember any.
Were you there at the time the Star was there?--I do not remember the
name. I do not recollect seeing her. I am sorry I have not the
boarding-book here, or I could tell you.
Do you remember the Laburnum?--No.
The Milford?--No.
Do you not know that the Milford landed a large quantity of goods at the
Gallinas?--Not to my knowledge.
Or the Sublime?--Not that I know of.
How long were you so near to the river Gallinas, or within it, as to be
able to know from your own observation what quantity of goods, if any,
was landed?--My cruizing ground was extensive. I was a good deal at the
Gallinas, because it was a notorious slave place, but I had many other
places to visit.
You are not answering my question. I ask you how long you were within
the river, or within sight of it, so as to know what quantity of goods
were landed?--It was part of my cruizing ground; sometimes I would be
there for two or three days at anchor, then I would be away a month or
two, and then back again for two or three months; sometimes I was
continually there.
Can you give me any idea of the population upon these banks of the river
with which you were acquainted? You say you went twelve miles up; what
was the extent of the whole population?--I can only answer from guess. I
should say, at Tiendo, the population might be eight or nine hundred;
at Tardia, one or two hundred; at Mena, seven or eight hundred. There is
another native town, which I do not know the name of, further down the
river; but it is not thickly populated by any means.
You say you were stationed upon the coast of Africa for the protection
of British commerce: as far as your experience goes, was not that
British commerce to the coast of Africa exceedingly serviceable to the
natives?--That depends upon what way it is employed. If it is to be
employed in the slave trade, it is doubtful whether it is serviceable.
I am not asking you a speculative question of that description: you were
there for the protection of British commerce, and it is a plain
question. I ask you, in your judgment, founded upon your experience, was
British commerce serviceable to the natives upon the coast of
Africa?--Are you taking the whole of the coast of Africa, or confining
it to the Gallinas?
I am confining it to the parts you are acquainted with?--That was all
the coast of Africa, from Portendique round to Madagascar; if you are
taking in all that, undoubtedly British commerce must be a great benefit
to Africa.
Let me ask you another question, and that I may not take you by
surprise, I may tell you that I am taking it from the book in which you
gave your evidence; I ask you, from your experience upon the coast of
Africa, whether, in many places, a lawful trade was not carried on to a
considerable extent by some persons, who likewise carried on the slave
trade?--By the same persons, or in the same places?
I say the same persons?--I have not seen the persons trading, and I
cannot tell.
Though you have not seen them trading, you may be able to answer the
question?--I do not hesitate in telling you, that in many places on the
coast of Africa, the same trade was carried on both for slaves and in
exchange for the produce of the country, but at the Gallinas I do not
think there was any trade of that kind.
In many places, the same trade was carried on in the lawful trade and
the slave trade by the same persons?--Yes; lam speaking of hearsay; but
I am as confident it was not so at the Gallinas, as one can be confident
from having been at the place.
The experience which leads you to think it has not been so at Gallinas
is from your own knowledge, being on the spot?--I have already stated I
have been a great deal there, and during that time I saw no other trade,
nor the sign of any other trade, than the slave trade.
We are here dealing with a gentleman who was never at the Gallinas, and
I am asking you a question founded upon your experience: you say you
believe no lawful trade was carried on there, as there was at other
places; I ask you, whether the knowledge you have acquired, which leads
you to suppose that European trade was carried on, was derived from your
own knowledge of the persons?--Yes.
Allow me to ask you, are the officers of the navy in your own
distinguished situation entitled to share in the value of the vessels
which they seize, and which happily for them are condemned?--Yes they
are; certainly.
To what extent: suppose you were to seize a vessel and cargo of the
value of 10,000_l._, what would be your own share?--I should imagine the
vessel in question--
I want to know, if you seize a ship and cargo of the value of
10,000_l._, 5000_l._ each, what is the share, if that vessel is
condemned for being engaged in the slave trade, that the commanding
officer seizing it is entitled to?--You must tell me the port she is to
be condemned in; it makes a considerable difference; if it is in the
Mixed Commission Court, that makes a very considerable difference, or if
it is in the Vice-Admiralty Court.
Take it as being condemned in the Vice-Admiralty Court?--Half the
proceeds go to the Crown, and the other half to the captors, after all
the expenses are paid.
You say half goes to the Crown, if condemned in the Vice-Admiralty
Court?--This vessel--
I am not asking you about any particular vessel.--It depends upon the
different Acts under which she is condemned.
Forget for a moment this vessel the Augusta, if you can, and suppose a
vessel under British colours is seized in the African seas by an officer
in your own situation, and is condemned in the English Vice-Admiralty
Court for a breach of the English law, how is the value divided?--Half
goes to the Crown, and the other half, after the expenses are paid, is
divided amongst the captors; the admiral gets one-sixteenth, and the
captain one-eighth of the remainder.
Suppose she is condemned by the Mixed Commission Court?--I believe it is
nearly the same in the Mixed Commission Court; but half goes to the
nation under whose flag she is sailing.
The Mixed Commission Court is a court composed of commissioners of two
nations, or various nations, and who have to determine the cases of
foreign vessels not British, Spanish for instance?--Yes; I think that is
the division after the nation under whose flag she is sailing; but under
the Act that was passed authorising us to seize Portuguese vessels, and
to prosecute them in the Vice-Admiralty Court, I do not know how the
proceeds were divided.
It is a Mixed Commission Court which decides upon the Spanish or
Portuguese ships; and the British Vice-Admiralty Court decide upon a
vessel under the British flag?--Yes.
Are not Spanish vessels prohibited from being navigated by British
captains? Did you ever see a vessel under the Spanish flag navigated by
a British captain?--I never recollect seeing one.
Now, as to the vessel in question, the Augusta; you say when she bore
the name of the Gollupchik, she was in every respect fitted up for the
slave trade?--Not in every respect; I do not think she had a slave-deck
laid.
I correct myself: she was in many respects fitted up for the slave
trade?--Yes.
And that led you to seize her?--Yes.
When she came to England, and was claimed by the Russian authorities,
do you know whether they succeeded in their claim?--I know nothing of
her; I sent her to England.
You do not know whether she remained in English hands, or was delivered
up to the Russian government?--I was on the coast of Africa at the time.
I have received nothing from the Vice-Admiralty Court in respect of her.
To a certain extent, to the extent to which you have described her, she
was, when you seized her under Russian colours, fitted up for a slave
vessel?--Yes.
When she bore her name of the Augusta, and was in the hands of Captain
Jennings, was she then fitted up for the slave trade?--Not in my
opinion; and I did not seize her for that, but for her freight: at least
I saw nothing; I do not know what might be under her cargo.
I did not ask you what you did not see; it is the very thing I have been
objecting to a hundred times over: I ask you what you did see. You have
said two or three times that you were three years upon this coast; to
what extent of coast did your cruizing extend?--From December, 1838,
until April or May, 1841. The Gallinas was within my station in the
first instance. I had charge of the station under Admiral Palmer. Then
there was another officer appointed.
I do not wish to go into the whole history of your service; but have the
goodness to confine yourself to the question: over what extent of coast
did the whole performance of your duties extend?--It depended upon the
nature of the orders I received.
Was it altogether 1,000 miles of coast or 500 miles, from 1837, when you
began, till 1841? Was the whole extent of coast, over which at various
periods your service extended, 1,000 miles?--From October, 1837, till
December, 1838, I was on the coast at different periods from Sierra
Leone as far as Madagascar: but from December, 1838, until I left the
coast of Africa in June, 1841, I was confined to the coast between Cape
Palmas, Portendique, and the Cape de Verd Islands: from December, 1838,
till June, 1841--