Mr. Justice _Maule_. How many degrees of latitude is it?
--It is about 1,000 miles I should say.
Mr. _Kelly_. During that period you acquired some experience, I presume,
in the nature of the British commerce carried on upon the coast of
Africa: let me ask you, whether the sort of articles of British
commerce, exported to Africa during that period, were not gunpowder,
muskets, tobacco, brandy, and cotton goods?--Oh, yes.
And iron articles?--I do not think it is possible to distinguish the
articles intended for the slave trade, from the articles intended for
legal commerce.
Mr. Justice _Maule_. The articles sent in both instances are welcome to
the African consumers?--Yes; I am speaking of the West Coast of Africa;
I cannot speak to other parts of the coast; I do not think it is
possible to distinguish them.
What people want in Africa is determined by that which they receive, and
whether they pay for it in coin or in produce only, the same thing would
be welcome?--Yes.
Mr. Justice _Maule_. Just as if you were to ask, why do people give bank
notes in England for guineas or sovereigns: it is just what they want.
Mr. _Kelly_. With regard to these articles you have mentioned, when
exported to various parts of Africa, is the return made sometimes in
doubloons or money, and sometimes in ivory, dye-wood, palm oil, and
other commodities produced there?--If you will let me answer the
question in my own way, I can do it more satisfactorily. Where goods are
landed, and doubloons are obtained in exchange, the doubloons come from
the Spaniards, and I never knew a Spaniard engaged in any trade upon the
coast of Africa but the slave trade: when you get produce in exchange,
it is more likely you get that from the natives.
Do you mean to say, that the Spaniards who trade upon the coast of
Africa do not give produce for the merchandise that goes there; I am not
speaking merely of the Gallinas?--I think I know of but one, and I do
not know whether he is a Spaniard or not. I can mention his name, it is
Carrote; I think he exported palm oil as well as slaves; but he told me
he was an agent to Pedro Blanco.
Do not tell us what he told you: what I ask you is, whether a return is
not sometimes made in ivory and palm oil, and dye-woods?--The question
calls for an answer which I cannot give in a satisfactory manner.
You do not do justice to your own understanding.--I wish to give you
every information.
You never saw any of the house of Zulueta & Co. in the course of your
travels on the coast of Africa?--Never to the best of my recollection.
Do you know any of them?--No: I saw Mr. Zulueta before the Committee of
the Privy Council for the first time.
Re-examined by Mr. Serjeant _Talfourd_.
You have been asked if you saw any slave fittings when you seized the
Augusta; did you take up any of the cargo?--No, I did not; I went into
the hold.
Do you know whether the slave fittings were what could be taken to
pieces and stowed away?--The hatches were grated when I first seized
her. When I seized her the second time she had new hatches and no
gratings at all. I saw nothing to induce me to believe she had slave
fittings when I seized her as the Augusta, though I had heard that.
Mr. Justice _Maule_. The learned Serjeant is asking you not what you
heard, but what you looked for; you searched to see if there were slave
fittings?--Yes; so far as going down into the hold. I did not disturb
the cargo; I do not know what was in her.
You did not find any leagers?--No.
Are you able to say whether she was or was not fitted for the slave
trade?--If she was equipped for it I should have seized her at once; but
she was not.
You saw enough of her to see that she was not equipped for the slave
trade?--Certainly; she had not slave equipments, leagers, hatches with
open gratings, or irons, or coppers, or any of those things.
Mr. Serjeant _Talfourd_. How long were you on board the vessel?--The
first day a couple of hours, and the next day about the same time. I was
on board her three or four times.
Can they get the equipments after they come into port when they
discharge their cargo?--Yes, in many places they can; I can give you an
instance of an American vessel--
Can the fittings be obtained there after the discharge of a vessel like
the Augusta?--
Mr. _Kelly_. Where?
Mr. Serjeant _Talfourd_. At the place where the cargo is
discharged.--The only way in which I can answer that question is this;
if an agent at Gallinas expects a slave vessel to come out without
equipments, he may take care to procure them from other vessels, and may
have them perfectly ready: I can give an instance of that--
Mr. _Kelly_. Never mind that.
Mr. Serjeant _Talfourd_. How long would it take to put on board slave
equipments in a vessel of the size of the Augusta?--A very short time:
they may send out the water-casks filled with water in two or three
canoes; and if they do not choose to lay down a slave deck, they put
mats upon the casks, and it is done in a very short time. They may
embark 500 slaves in a couple of hours or upwards and be off.
_Foreman of the Jury._ One of my brother jurors wishes to ask this
question of the witness through your Lordship: when he went on board the
Augusta, whether he found any thing on board her to warrant her being
supposed to be fitted out as a slave vessel?
Mr. Justice _Maule_. He says he did not; that has been pursued for some
time; and now in answer to questions put to him, the gentleman was
saying, though she was not fitted out in that way, that her goods might
be landed, and slaves might be put on board, in a few hours.--I can
say--
Mr. _Kelly_. I object to these speeches: I object to this gentleman, who
thinks because he has seized this vessel that if any thing falls from
the Jury, or from one of her Majesty’s judges, that he may begin making
a speech. There has been a great deal said that is not evidence: that
every body must feel; but it is impossible to stop him, although a
gentleman as respectable as himself is under trial.
Mr. Serjeant _Talfourd_. You have been asked about the share which the
captain has in the capture of a vessel of this description; do you
accurately know what share you would have under the circumstances?--Yes;
what I have stated is the share: half the proceeds go to the Crown, and
after the admiral has had his share, the remaining half is divided.
What would be your share of this vessel the Augusta?--I believe the
proceeds amounted to about 3,800_l._; one-half goes to the Crown, and
there are the expenses of the appeal to the Judicial Committee of the
Privy Council, which are not paid.
Have you got any thing?--No, not a sixpence.