have educated this generation in faith and loyalty to Hitler. The Youth
Organization which I built up bore his name. I believed that I was
serving a leader who would make our people and the youth of our country
great and happy and free. Millions of young people believed this,
together with me, and saw their ultimate ideal in National Socialism.
Many died for it. Before God, before the German nation, and before my
German people I alone bear the guilt of having trained our young people
for a man whom I for many long years had considered unimpeachable, both
as a leader and as the head of the State, of creating for him a
generation who saw him as I did. The guilt is mine in that I educated
the youth of Germany for a man who murdered by the millions. I believed
in this man, that is all I can say for my excuse and for the
characterization of my attitude. This is my own—my own personal guilt.
I was responsible for the youth of the country. I was placed in
authority over the young people, and the guilt is mine alone. The
younger generation is guiltless. It grew up in an anti-Semitic state,
ruled by anti-Semitic laws. Our youth was bound by these laws and saw
nothing criminal in racial politics. But if anti-Semitism and racial
laws could lead to an Auschwitz, then Auschwitz must mark the end of
racial politics and the death of anti-Semitism. Hitler is dead. I never
betrayed him; I never tried to overthrow him; I remained true to my oath
as an officer, a youth leader, and an official. I was no blind
collaborator of his; neither was I an opportunist. I was a convinced
National Socialist from my earliest days—as such, I was also an
anti-Semite. Hitler’s racial policy was a crime which led to disaster
for 5,000,000 Jews and for all the Germans. The younger generation bears
no guilt. But he who, after Auschwitz, still clings to racial politics
has rendered himself guilty.
That is what I consider my duty to state in connection with the Hoess
case.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, is this perhaps a convenient moment to break
off?
THE PRESIDENT: How long is the defendant’s examination going to
continue, Dr. Sauter?
DR. SAUTER: I believe it will take about 1 hour.
THE PRESIDENT: I did not hear that.
DR. SAUTER: I believe it will take about one more hour—an hour at the
most. Did you hear me, Mr. President?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I hear you now. We have been hearing you for a very
long time now.
DR. SAUTER: Yes.
[_A recess was taken._]
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, after this declaration by the Defendant Von
Schirach I would gladly dispense with all further questions, but the
Prosecution have brought definite accusations against this defendant and
I fear that, if he does not briefly voice an opinion on the subject,
these accusations would be considered as tacitly accepted. I shall try
to be as brief as possible.
Witness, you have just described the impressions you had gathered from
the proceedings of the Tribunal. Have you yourself ever visited a
concentration camp?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: When, and for what reason?
VON SCHIRACH: As the witness Höllriegel has testified before this
Tribunal, I visited Mauthausen Concentration Camp in 1942. The testimony
given by another witness, Marsalek, to the effect that this visit took
place in 1944, is incorrect. I also mentioned it when I was interned, in
June 1945 and in the course of my preliminary interrogation in
Nuremberg.
DR. SAUTER: Prior to Höllriegel’s testimony?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The translation came through “interned in June 1940.” Is
that right?
DR. SAUTER: 1945, Herr Von Schirach, not 1940?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes. I went into voluntary internment in 1945.
DR. SAUTER: Then you can confidently state that you visited Mauthausen
in 1942?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: For what reason and how...
VON SCHIRACH: There had been a session...
DR. SAUTER: Just one moment...
THE PRESIDENT: What does he mean by “voluntary internment”?
DR. SAUTER: The Defendant Von Schirach was, at that time, living in the
Tyrol under an assumed name, and in the place where he lived—perhaps
Defendant Schirach can himself, but very briefly, tell us how this
voluntary internment came about.
VON SCHIRACH: I was then still at liberty and I sent a letter, through
my adjutant, to the local American commander, stating that I should like
to surrender voluntarily in order to be tried by an Allied court. That
was in June 1945. The CIC officer who later discovered where I lived
told me that I might have stayed there a good time longer. I personally
am convinced that I could have remained in hiding there, and elsewhere,
for years—as long as I wished.
DR. SAUTER: Herr Von Schirach, we shall now revert to your visit to
Mauthausen, which you said with certainty and under oath took place in
1942. Is this right?
VON SCHIRACH: I believe the date given by witness Höllriegel is correct.
I quite definitely know that the date given by Marsalek is not correct.
DR. SAUTER: Then it was not in 1944?
VON SCHIRACH: Probably 1942. I therefore confirm Höllriegel’s testimony.
There was a meeting at Linz at which various departments of the Ostmark
participated. There were conferences on economic or agrarian problems,
and in the late afternoon we went to Mauthausen Concentration Camp at
the request of Gauleiter Eigruber. At the time I was rather surprised
that the Gauleiter was even in a position to invite us there. I assumed
that he had previously been in touch with the SS offices, and that the
reason for Eigruber’s invitation was that he wished to erect a rifle
factory or something of the kind there. At any rate, though I can no
longer remember exactly, it was somehow connected with the production of
the Steyr Works.
DR. SAUTER: Who showed you about and what did you see?
VON SCHIRACH: We were shown about by the camp commandant.
DR. SAUTER: Whose name was?
VON SCHIRACH: His name—as has already been mentioned here—was Ziereis,
or something of the kind.
DR. SAUTER: SS leader?
VON SCHIRACH: SS Camp Commandant. And I should now like to give you my
first impressions. The camp area was very large. I immediately asked how
many internees there were. I believe I was told 15,000 or 20,000. At any
rate, the figure varied between 15,000 and 20,000. I asked what kind of
internees were imprisoned there and received the reply I was always
given whenever I inquired about concentration camps—namely, that
two-thirds of the inmates were dangerous criminals collected from the
prisons and penitentiaries and brought to work in the camp; that the
remaining third was allegedly composed of political prisoners and people
guilty of high treason and betrayal of their country, who, it is a fact,
are treated with exceptional severity in wartime.
DR. SAUTER: Did you, in this camp, convince yourself as to the nature of
the treatment meted out to the prisoners, accommodations, the food
situation, _et cetera_?
VON SCHIRACH: I witnessed one food distribution and gained the
impression that, for camp conditions, the food ration was both normal
and adequate. I then visited the large quarry, once famous and now
notorious, where the construction stone for Vienna had been quarried for
centuries. There was no work going on at the quarry since the working
day had come to an end, but I did, however, visit the works where the
stone was cut. I saw a building with an exceptionally well-equipped
dental clinic. This clinic was shown to me because I had questioned
Ziereis about the medical assistance afforded in the camp. I would add
that, during this visit, I asked in general the same questions which I
had been used to ask during all my visits to the camps of the youth
organizations—that is, questions pertaining to food, medical aid, the
number of people in the camp, _et cetera_.
I was then taken to a large room in which music was being played by the
prisoners. They had gathered together quite a large symphony orchestra,
and I was told that on holiday evenings they could amuse themselves,
each man according to his own tastes. In this case, for instance, the
prisoners who wished to make music assembled in that room. A tenor was
singing on that occasion—I remember that particularly.
I then inquired about the mortality rate and was shown a room with three
corpses in it. I cannot tell you here and now, under oath, whether I saw
any crematorium or not. Marsalek has testified to that effect. I would
not, however, have been surprised if there had been a crematorium or a
cemetery in so large a place, so far removed from the city. That would
be a matter of course.
DR. SAUTER: Herr Von Schirach, during this official visit under the
guidance of Camp Commandant Ziereis, did you discover anything at all
about any ill-treatment, or atrocities, or of the tortures which were
allegedly inflicted in the camp? You can answer the question
briefly—possibly with “yes” or “no.”
VON SCHIRACH: Had that been the case, I would of course have endeavored
to do something about it. But I was under the impression that everything
was in order. I looked at the inmates, for instance, and I remember
seeing, among others, the famous middle-distance runner Peltzer, who was
known as a sexual pervert. He had been punished because he had, on
innumerable occasions, freely committed sexual offences against youths
in his charge in a country school.
I asked Ziereis, “How does one ever get out of these concentration
camps? Do you also release people continuously?” In reply he had four or
five inmates brought to me who, according, to him, were to be released
the very next day. He asked them in my presence, “Have you packed
everything, and have you prepared everything for your release?”—to
which, beaming with joy, they answered, “Yes.”
DR. SAUTER: Witness, can you remember whether on this occasion you also
asked Camp Commander Ziereis whether political prisoners from your
Vienna district—that is, from the city of Vienna—were interned in the
camp? And did you then have a group of political prisoners from Vienna
brought before you?
VON SCHIRACH: You have already, Counsel, put this question to me during
an interview, and I can only tell you the following under oath: I cannot
remember, but you may take it for granted that, on an occasion of this
kind, I would certainly ask after prisoners from my own Gau. But I
cannot remember. Herr Marsalek mentioned it in his testimony, and I
consider it probable.
I should, in connection with this visit, like to add the following: I
have always been rather hampered in my recollections of Mauthausen...
DR. SAUTER: What hampered you?
VON SCHIRACH: After May 1945 I heard innumerable radio reports on
Mauthausen and other concentration camps, and I read everything I
could lay my hands on in the way of written reports about
Mauthausen—everything that appeared in the press—and I always pondered
on the question, “Did you see anything there which might have pointed to
a mass destruction of human beings?” I was, for instance, reading the
other day about running belts for the conveyance of corpses. I did not
see them.
I must add that I also visited Dachau; I must not forget that. In 1935,
together with the entire Party leadership group, I paid a visit to
Dachau from Munich. This visit was a result of the objections against
existing preventive custody measures expressed by certain political
leaders to the Deputy of the Führer Hess who, in turn, passed these
objections on to Himmler who subsequently sent out an invitation to
inspect Dachau. I believe that there were, at that time, 800 or 1,000
internees at Dachau.
I did not participate in the entire official visit for I was conversing
with some of the Gauleiter who were being shown about the camp. I saw
quite excellent living quarters at Dachau and, because the subject
interested me particularly, I was shown the building which housed the
camp library. I saw that there were also good medical facilities.
Then—and I believe this fact is worthy of mention—after the visit I
spoke with many Gau- and Reichsleiter about the impression they had
formed of Dachau. All impressions gained were to the effect that all
doubts as to Himmler’s preventive custody measures were definitely
dispersed, and everybody said that the internees in the camp were, on
the whole, better accommodated than they would have been in a state
prison. Such was my impression of Dachau in 1935, and I must say that
ever since that visit my mind was far more at ease regarding conditions
in the concentration camps. In conclusion, I feel I must add the
following:
Up to the moment of the final collapse I firmly believed that we had
20,000 people in the Mauthausen Camp, 10,000 at Oranienburg and
Dachau—two more large camps whose existence was known to me and one of
which I had visited—and possibly 10,000 more at Buchenwald, near
Weimar, a camp I knew by name but which I had never visited. I therefore
concluded that we had roughly 50,000 people in the German camps, of
which I firmly believed that two-thirds were habitual criminals,
convicts, and sexual perverts, and one-third consisted of political
prisoners. And I had arrived at this conclusion primarily because I
myself have never sent a single soul to the concentration camps and
nourished the illusion that others had acted as I did. I could not even
imagine, when I heard of it—immediately after the collapse—that
hundreds of thousands of people in Germany were considered political
offenders.
There is something else to be said on the whole question of the
concentration camps. The poet Hans Carossa has deposed an affidavit for
me, and this affidavit contains a passage about a publisher whom I had
liberated from a concentration camp. I wish to mention this because it
is one of many typical cases where one exerted one’s entire influence to
have a man freed from a concentration camp, but then he never tells you
afterwards how he fared in the camp. In the course of the years, I have
received many letters from people having relatives in the concentration
camps. By establishing, in Vienna, a fixed day on which audience was
granted to anybody from the population who wished to speak to me, I was
able to talk to thousands of people from every class and standing.
On one such occasion I was approached by someone who requested me
personally to free some friend or relative in a concentration camp. In
cases like that I usually wrote a letter to the Reich Security Main
Office—at first to Herr Heydrich and later to Herr Kaltenbrunner—and
after some time I would be informed that the internee in question had or
had not been released, according to the gravity of the charges brought
against him. But the internees released never told me their experiences
in the camp. One never saw anybody who had been ill-treated in the
camps, and that is why I myself, and many others in Germany with me, was
never able to visualize conditions in the concentration camps at all.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, this affidavit of the poet Hans Carossa, just
mentioned by the defendant, is Document Number Schirach 3(a). I repeat,
Schirach 3(a) of the Schirach document book. It is a sworn affidavit by
the poet Carossa, and I ask the Tribunal to put the entire contents of
the document into the evidence. In the last paragraph, mention is made
of the case about which the defendant has just been speaking—that is,
the liberation of a publisher named Suhrkamp from a concentration camp.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you got the page of it?
DR. SAUTER: Page 25 of the document book, Document Number Schirach
3(a)—Hans Carossa. The remainder of this document deals with the humane
impression Dr. Carossa received of the defendant, and with Defendant Von
Schirach’s solicitude for the victims of political persecution.
Witness, how many concentration camps did you know anything about?
VON SCHIRACH: I have just enumerated them: Oranienburg, Dachau,
Buchenwald, and Mauthausen.
DR. SAUTER: Was there a concentration camp in your own Gau?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
DR. SAUTER: In connection with this entire group of questions on the
treatment of the Jews, I turn to orders allegedly issued in your
presence to the camp commandant of Mauthausen in March 1945. It is
Document Number 3870-PS, submitted by the Prosecution. According to this
document, Himmler in March 1945 is supposed to have issued a directive
to the effect that the Jews from the Southeast Wall were to be sent on
foot to Mauthausen. Did you have anything at all to do with this?
VON SCHIRACH: I can tell you exactly from memory what Himmler said at
that time.
Himmler came to Vienna towards the middle, or the end of March, to talk
to the Commander of Army Group South. On this occasion—the Commander of
Army Group South was, of course, not stationed in Vienna, he had ordered
all the Reichsstatthalter of the Ostmark up to Vienna and granted them
full authority to enforce martial law in the future, since Vienna and
some of the other Ostmark Gaue had by that time become almost front-line
zones. At this conference Himmler told his adjutant to call Ziereis in,
while the papers for full powers were being typed in the next room. That
is how I came to meet Ziereis for the second time in my life.
And now Himmler did not, as Marsalek said, tell Ziereis that the Jews
were to be marched on foot from the Southeast Wall to Mauthausen, but he
did say something else which surprised me enormously. He said:
“I want the Jews now employed in industry to be taken by boat,
or by bus if possible, under the most favorable food conditions
and with medical care, _et cetera_, to Linz or Mauthausen.”
I do not quite remember whether he said they should be taken to
Mauthausen, but he also said to Ziereis:
“Please take care of these Jews and treat them well; they are my
most valuable assets.”
From this declaration I assumed, in the very beginning—it was my very
first, fleeting impression—that Himmler wished to deceive me in some
way or another, and then it became clear to me that with these
instructions he was following certain foreign political intentions, in
the last moments of the war, in emphasizing the excellent treatment of
the Jews.
What Marsalek therefore said about making them go on foot is not
correct. As I have already mentioned, Himmler, under all circumstances,
wanted the best possible treatment to be given to the Jews. I gained the
impression—and later on it was confirmed by other things we heard—that
he wished, at the last minute, to somehow redeem himself with this
treatment of the Jews.
DR. SAUTER: That was the end of March 1945?
VON SCHIRACH: That was the end of March 1945, on the occasion when
authority to apply martial law was granted to the Statthalter of the
Ostmark.
DR. SAUTER: Therefore, immediately before the collapse?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: In connection with your activities in Vienna there is also
an accusation, Witness, brought against you by the Prosecution, to the
effect that you participated in the persecution of the Church. This
accusation is supported exclusively as far as I can see by Document
Number R-146. I repeat, R-146, which has already been submitted by the
Prosecution.
This, Witness, is a letter addressed by the witness, Dr. Lammers, who
has been heard before the Tribunal, to the Reich Minister of the
Interior, dated 14 March 1941, and further, a circular from Bormann,
addressed to all the Gauleiter, dated 20 March 1941.
I should like to hear your comments on both of these letters, especially
since Dr. Lammers’ letter speaks of property belonging to enemies of the
people and the state, whereas in Bormann’s circular of 20 March 1941
mention is made of the confiscation of Church property—monastic
property—_et cetera_. Do you know what led to these letters, and what
part did you yourself play in the matter?
VON SCHIRACH: The document written by Dr. Lammers is correct. Bormann’s
covering letter referred to Church property; I referred to property
belonging to enemies of the people and the State, for that was a
technical expression at the time. I should like to mention in this
matter that when I came to Vienna in 1940 the confiscation of such
property was already in full swing; an argument had arisen on the
subject between the Gauleiter and the Reich Minister for Finance. The
Reich Minister for Finance wanted the confiscated property taken over by
the Reich, while I considered that this property should remain
fundamentally the possession of the Gaue.
So far as I can remember, I was involved in this question only through
the following confiscations: Prince Schwarzenberg possessed property,
the greater part of which lay in the region of the Upper Danube; the
smaller part was the famous Vienna Palace. Now this Prince Schwarzenberg
had refused, in the presence of some German consul general, or consul
abroad, to return to Germany and serve in the Army. Thereupon his
property was confiscated. In the interest of the Reich I endeavored to
maintain this property for the Vienna Reich Gau and to prevent it from
passing over to the Reich. I have no files before me, so I cannot from
memory give you any information about other, similar actions.
I am not responsible for confiscations in the other Austrian Gaue. But I
may state one thing here—namely, that I put an end to all confiscations
throughout the entire Reich. When, through an intermediary, women from
an Austrian convent appealed to me for help, I asked my father-in-law to
act behind Bormann’s back and explain to Hitler the disastrous political
effects which these confiscations would have and to beg him to issue a
direct order for their suppression. This was achieved, and when the
order was put through, Bormann turned against my father-in-law as well.
From then on I never had any further opportunity to bring this question
to the Führer’s notice.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, you have not, so far, quite explained your attitude
toward Dr. Lammers’ letter of 14 March 1941. To refresh your memory I
should like to read out the first sentence of that letter. This letter
of Lammers’ dated 14 March 1941, Document Number R-146, states, and I
quote:
“The Reichsstatthalter and Gauleiter Von Schirach, together with
Dr. Jury and Eigruber, has recently complained to the Führer
that the Reich Minister for Finance is still of the opinion that
the seizure of property belonging to enemies of the state and
people should be effected in favor of the Reich, and not in
favor of the Reich Gau.”
Thus runs the quotation.
And because of this incident the Prosecution have accused you of
participating in the persecution of the Church in Vienna. I must request
you to tell us what you really did do in the matter.
VON SCHIRACH: Well, the Church in Vienna had actually been persecuted
under my predecessor, Bürckel, and this can be proved. I mentioned
yesterday the demonstrations before the Archbishop’s Palace. But from
the day of my arrival in Vienna, anti-Church demonstrations in the
nature of a political agitation no longer took place. Immediately upon
my arrival I gathered all the political officials and all my other
colleagues of the Gau and demanded that they should never, either in
writing or by word of mouth, express anything likely to offend the
religious sentiments of other people. I believe that this is a fact
which was gratefully noted by the entire population of Vienna. From that
day on there were no further actions against the Church. Just how much
Church property, though, was called in in compliance with the law for
special war contributions, a law which likewise applied to other
property—I cannot tell you without documentary evidence.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, we can see from this document that you must have
spoken on the subject to Hitler personally...
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: ...because it states that the Reichsleiter and Gauleiter Von
Schirach complained to Hitler on the subject. You have not said anything
to us about that so far.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I myself, during a visit by Hitler to Vienna where he
signed a southeast pact, told him I was of the opinion that the property
confiscated belonged to the Gaue and not to the Reich. That was my point
of view and one which I believed to be entirely correct.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, the Indictment further accuses you of having had
some kind of connection with the SS, thereby promoting the SS, _et
cetera_. Were you yourself ever a member of the SS?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
DR. SAUTER: Did Himmler, the leader of the SS, have any influence over
the youth organizations and over the education of the young people?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
DR. SAUTER: Were the replacements in the SS, especially in the SS
Leadership Corps, recruited from the HJ, and if so, why?
VON SCHIRACH: The replacements in all the leadership corps in Germany
were recruited from the youth. Our youth organization was a state
institution. You now are probably referring to an agreement which I had
with Himmler on the patrol services?
DR. SAUTER: Yes, that too plays a part in this connection.
VON SCHIRACH: Agreements of that sort...
DR. SAUTER: Just one more moment, Herr Von Schirach. This agreement is
entered in the documents of the Prosecution as Number 2396-PS. I repeat
2396-PS, in which a special statement occurs—and I should appreciate
your comments on the subject—to the effect that the SS received their
replacements from the patrol service of the HJ, allegedly by an
agreement of October 1938. Please tell us about it and explain to us
what actually was this patrol service.
VON SCHIRACH: The patrol service was one of the special units of the HJ
which I forgot to mention yesterday. The patrol service was a youth
service for keeping order. It consisted of outstandingly decent lads who
had no police duties—I now refer to documentary reports which I
procured—but who had to supervise the general behavior of the young
people, examine their uniforms, control the visits of the boys to the
taverns; and it was their duty to inspect the HJ hostels for cleanliness
and neatness, to supervise the hiking expeditions of the young people
and the youth hostelries in the country. They stood guard and were on
order duty at mass meetings and demonstrations. They watched over
encampments and accompanied the convoys. They were employed in the
search for youths who were lost. They gave advice to traveling youth,
attended to station service, were supposed to protect young people from
criminal elements, and, above all, to protect national property—that
is, woods, fields, for instance—and to see that they were safe from
fires, _et cetera_.
Since Himmler might make trouble for this section of the youth
organization, I was interested in having the Police recognize my patrol
service; for in my idea of the State youth as a youth state, the Police
should not be employed against the youth, but these young people should
keep order among themselves. That this principle was a sound one can be
judged from the immense decline in juvenile delinquency from 1933 up to
the outbreak of the war.
DR. SAUTER: Witness...
VON SCHIRACH: One moment, I have not yet finished. After this
agreement...
THE PRESIDENT: Surely, Dr. Sauter, we have heard enough about this unit.
The whole point of the document was that they were used for recruiting
for the SS, wasn’t it? That is the complaint of the Prosecution.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, the patrol service...
THE PRESIDENT: We have heard, at considerable length the description of
what they did in the way of the protection of the youth. Surely we have
heard enough about that.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, these so-called special units were specially
mentioned by the Prosecution as a means for preparation for war—that
is, as a means for the military training of the young people. In this
connection all these special units were mentioned, and therefore we
considered it necessary that the defendant inform you what this patrol
service really was. But I can, Mr. President, set this topic aside
immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: We have heard what they were at some considerable length.
DR. SAUTER: Very well.
Witness, from which departments did the SS mainly recruit its leader
replacements?
VON SCHIRACH: In order to assure its leader replacements, the SS founded
its own training schools which were entirely outside my influence. They
were the so-called National Socialist Training Institutes.
DR. SAUTER: In connection with the SS, the Prosecution, Witness,
mentioned a further agreement between you and Reichsführer SS Himmler,
an agreement of December 1938, submitted as Document Number 2567-PS, the
so-called “Landdienst” of the HJ. Why was this agreement concluded with
the Reichsführer SS?
VON SCHIRACH: It is very hard to give a brief answer. The Reichsführer
SS was a farmer with an agronomical degree. In his student days he had
belonged to the so-called “Artaman Movement,” whose program it was to
prevent the flight from the land, and he was particularly keen to
collaborate within the SS with the farm labor service groups of the HJ
who were doing the same work as the “Artaman” groups in the past.
In conclusion, I should like to say about the “Landdienst” and the
patrol service, that no coercion was ever brought to bear on the young
people to enter the SS. Any lad from the patrol service was, of course,
free to become a member of the SA or of the NSKK—and frequently did
so—or else become a political leader just like any other boy from the
farm labor service or the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, the Indictment states, _inter alia_, that a
directive was addressed to the political leaders demanding that the
Hitler Youth Leaders—that is, the leaders subordinate to you—be
employed on their staffs. What can you say to that?
VON SCHIRACH: I can only say in reply that this is one of many attempts
by the Party Chancellery to bring the Youth Leadership into the
political leadership. The practical result of the directive was that a
number of youth leaders were given insignificant duties as adjutants.
They complained to me, and I withdrew them from these posts. It is a
historical fact that in Germany there was no real flow of people from
the youth organization into the political leadership. I can personally
name those youth leaders who came into the political leadership, there
were so few of them.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, the Soviet Prosecution have submitted a document,
Document Number USSR-6, which is a report from the Lemberg Commission.
Herein the following fact is mentioned. A French woman, Ida Vasseau, the
head of an asylum for old people in Lemberg, testified in writing—I am
only quoting the gist of the affidavit—that ghetto children were handed
over as presents to the Hitler Youth and that these children were then
used as living targets by the HJ for their drill practice. In all the
time that you were active in the Reich Youth Leadership, did you ever
hear of such misdemeanors or excesses?
VON SCHIRACH: No. We are dealing here with the first and, so far, the
only accusation of crimes committed by the HJ which has been brought to
my notice. There were no HJ commandos, either in the East or in the
West, capable of committing such crimes. I consider the statements in
this affidavit as absolutely untrue, and that is all I can say on the
matter.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, in the course of his examination your
fellow-Defendant, Dr. Schacht, mentioned that a suggestion had been made
in his time to Mr. Eden, to divest the SS, the SA, and the HJ of their
military character if the other powers would consent to disarm. What do
you know of such proposals or negotiations?
VON SCHIRACH: I know of no such offer, as far as the Hitler Youth is
concerned. I consider it entirely out of the question that any such
offer could have been received by Mr. Eden regarding the HJ; for Hitler
himself did not consider the HJ as a military or even a semimilitary
organization. The disarming of the HJ could factually never have taken
place since the only weapon carried by the Hitler Youth was the camping
knife, the equivalent of a Boy Scout’s bowie knife of the Jungvolk
Pimpfe (boys of 10-14 years of age).
DR. SAUTER: Witness, the Prosecution further charge that you, in 1933,
concluded an agreement with the VDA—an abbreviation for the “Verein für
das Deutschtum im Ausland.” Is that true? And what was your intention in
concluding this agreement?
VON SCHIRACH: That is true. I do not wish to express an opinion on the
aims and objects of the VDA. I believe that counsel for the Defendant
Frick has already done so. I refer to these statements and merely state
that it was my perfectly natural wish to incorporate in the HJ the
numerically powerful group of lads belonging to the VDA. The majority of
these youths, moreover, had graduated from the public schools, and it
was my second intention to place some of my collaborators on the board
of the VDA so as to be currently informed about the young people abroad.
DR. SAUTER: The Prosecution further accuse you of having founded the
so-called Adolf Hitler Schools where the training of young leaders for
the National Socialist State and for the Party was carried out. What
have you to say to this accusation?
VON SCHIRACH: There is a lot that I could say about that accusation, but
I shall limit myself to essential remarks only.
The Adolf Hitler Schools were founded as scholastic units of the HJ.
They were founded with the means which Dr. Ley placed at my disposal
when I told him of my plans for the training I had envisaged. These
schools were not intended to train leaders for the Party exclusively but
served to prepare the youth for all the professions. I myself often
talked to these boys on their graduation and I always told them “You can
choose any profession you like. Your training in this school carries no
obligation, either moral or otherwise, to become a political leader.”
_De facto_, relatively few political leaders emerged from the Adolf
Hitler Schools. Very many of the boys became doctors, officials, _et
cetera_. I cannot quote any figures from memory, but the communications
I have received from the young people, including statements from
teachers in the Adolf Hitler Schools, show their attitude towards this
point of the Indictment. And I should like to ask that at least 50 to 60
of these numerous affidavits, which confirm all that I have said, be
submitted in support of my declarations.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, one more question on a different topic. Did you
ever receive any so-called endowment funds, or anything of that kind,
from Hitler or from other sources?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I never received any endowment funds.
DR. SAUTER: Did you ever receive gifts in kind, such as valuable
paintings or other costly gifts?
VON SCHIRACH: The only thing Hitler ever gave me was his photograph on
the occasion of my thirtieth birthday.
DR. SAUTER: His photograph—presumably with a few words of dedication?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Now I have a few final, very brief questions to ask
you—they refer to the last days of your activities in Vienna. You have
already mentioned, in connection with Himmler’s visit to Vienna at the
end of March 1945, that you had at that time received from Himmler the
so-called authority for the proclamation of martial law. If I have
understood you correctly, you, in your function of Reich Defense
Commissioner, were authorized to convene a drumhead court martial?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, and that made me lord of life and death.
DR. SAUTER: As far as I know, this drumhead court martial was only
supposed to pass death sentences?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Did you ever convene this drumhead court martial in Vienna,
and did you appoint the members?
VON SCHIRACH: I appointed the members of the court martial. An
outstanding lawyer was the president. I never convened the drumhead
court martial and I never once imposed a death sentence. If I remember
rightly, the military court martial of the local military commandant
passed four death sentences on four military traitors. My court martial
never met and never passed a death sentence.
DR. SAUTER: Had you any connection with the military drumhead court
martial?
VON SCHIRACH: No. The Vienna commandant was, of course, president of
that particular court, and I was the head of court martial “Schirach.”
DR. SAUTER: You said you had a distinguished lawyer as your president?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: What was his profession?
VON SCHIRACH: I think he was president of a district court, of something
of the kind. I cannot quite remember; I have forgotten.
DR. SAUTER: So he was an official Viennese judge?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Did you give the order, in Vienna, to have certain vitally
important factories either blown up or destroyed as so often happened in
other Gaue, as for instance, here in Nuremberg?
VON SCHIRACH: No. It has escaped my knowledge, that much I must admit,
how far crippling and destructive measures were executed in the military
and armament sectors, pursuant to direct instructions from the Reich
Government. For instance, the dynamiting of bridges was a military
precaution. The order could never have emanated from me. Hitler reserved
for himself the right to issue the orders for blowing up the bridges
over the Danube. The Chief of Army Group South, Generaloberst Rendulic,
prior to giving the order for blowing up these bridges, had to consult
the Führer’s headquarters by telephone.
DR. SAUTER: When did you yourself leave Vienna?
VON SCHIRACH: I left Gau Vienna after the withdrawal of the last troops
from the city and after the command post of the 2d corps of the 6th SS
Panzer Army had been moved to the region of the Lower Danube.
DR. SAUTER: When was that?
VON SCHIRACH: That was—sorry, I cannot remember the date offhand. It
was toward the end of the battle for Vienna.
DR. SAUTER: And now I have one last question to ask you. You know that
the order went out from the Party Leadership and from circles of the
Reich Chancellery to stage a “Werewolf” movement for fighting the
advancing troops. What was your attitude towards this movement?
VON SCHIRACH: I prohibited any Werewolf organization in my Gau, but to
avoid misunderstandings I must tell you that there was a youth
battalion, a Volkssturm battalion, which bore the name of “Werewolf,”
but there was no Werewolf unit. I invariably refused, both for the young
people and the adults, permission to participate in any form of combat
contrary to the decrees of international law.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other member of the defendants’ counsel want to
ask any questions?
DR. ALFRED THOMA (Counsel for Defendant Rosenberg): Witness, what was
the attitude of Rosenberg, as the Führer’s Plenipotentiary for the
Ideological Education of the Party, toward the Reich Youth Leadership?
VON SCHIRACH: I believe that the Chief of the Department for Ideological
Education in the Reich Youth Leadership had to attend, on an average,
two, perhaps three, meetings per annum, also attended by educational
leaders from other Party organizations. These meetings took place under
the chairmanship of Reichsleiter Rosenberg. On these occasions, as I
have been told by the chief of the department, Rosenberg was wont to lay
down general instructions and directives and ask for reports on the
educational work of the individual organizations.
DR. THOMA: Did Rosenberg select specific subjects to be lectured on at
these meetings?
VON SCHIRACH: That I do not know for certain. At these meetings of the
Youth Leadership representatives, at which Rosenberg spoke once a year,
he usually selected educational themes, themes dealing with character
training. He would, for instance, speak about solitude and comradeship
and, as far as I remember, about personality, honor, _et cetera_.
DR. THOMA: Did Rosenberg at these meetings mention the Jewish problem
and the confessional question?
VON SCHIRACH: During these Youth Leadership sessions he never made any
speeches against the Jews, nor did he, as far as I can remember, ever
touch on the subject of the confession—at least, not in my presence. I
usually heard him speak on subjects such as I have just enumerated.
DR. THOMA: Witness, did you read Rosenberg’s _Myth of the Twentieth
Century_? And if so, when?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I began to read it, but I did not read the whole book.
DR. THOMA: Did this Rosenberg’s _Myth_ make any impression on the young
people or did other leaders have experiences similar to your own?
VON SCHIRACH: The youth leaders certainly did not read the _Myth of the
Twentieth Century_.
DR. THOMA: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other defendant’s counsel want to ask questions?
Or perhaps we had better adjourn now.
[_The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours._]
_Afternoon Session_
DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, you have already stated in connection with
Sauckel’s directive regarding employment of labor that you were flooded
with such directives. Were these directives carried out?
VON SCHIRACH: As far as my own information goes, I can confirm that. I
had the impression that the functionaries of the labor employment
administration felt that they had to keep strictly to Sauckel’s orders,
and in those industrial plants which I visited I was able to ascertain
that the requirements stated in the directives were in fact fulfilled.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did Sauckel himself take steps to insure that these
things were carried out?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes. I remember that Sauckel once came to Vienna—I think
in 1943—and that on that occasion he addressed all his labor employment
functionaries and repeated orally everything which he had stated in his
directives. He spoke of the foreign workers in particular, demanding
just treatment for them; and I remember that on this occasion he even
spoke of putting them on the same footing as German workers.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have a few more questions about the political leaders.
How were political leaders on the Gauleiter level informed? Did the
Gauleiter have individual interviews with the Führer, especially in
connection with the Gauleiter assemblies?
VON SCHIRACH: No. After the Gauleiter assemblies the Führer always held
forth in a comparatively large circle just as he did in his speeches.
Interviews in the real sense of the word did not exist. He always made
speeches. Fixed dates on which Gauleiter could have interviews with
Hitler almost ceased to exist once the war had begun.
DR. SERVATIUS: Could not a Gauleiter approach Hitler personally and ask
for an interview?
VON SCHIRACH: He could ask for an interview, but he did not get it; he
received an answer from Bormann, usually in the form of a telegram. That
happened to me very frequently, because I made such requests; one was
asked to submit in writing the points one wanted to discuss, after which
one either received an answer or did not receive one.
DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, a letter has been submitted here as Document
D-728, signed or initialed by Gauleiter Sprenger. You were here when it
was submitted and you know the document. I have two questions concerning
it.
Do you know anything about a list, which was to be compiled, containing
the names of those suffering from heart and lung diseases, who were to
be removed from the population?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I know nothing about that.
DR. SERVATIUS: Or that you were to make suggestions for this to the
Führer?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
DR. SERVATIUS: In my opinion that document also contains an error which
has already been mentioned here, namely, the word “Herr” as a form of
address. This letter was addressed to the “Herren Ortsgrüppenleiter,”
and repeated mention is made of the “Herren Kreisleiter and
Ortsgrüppenleiter” in the text. I ask you now if the expression “Herr”
was customary in Party language?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I have never known a Party document with the exception
of this one, which I consider a fraud, in which the term “Herr” was
used.
DR. SERVATIUS: You are therefore of the opinion that that designation
proves in itself that the document is false?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions.
DR. STEINBAUER: Herr Von Schirach, your predecessor as Gauleiter was
Josef Bürckel. What sort of relations existed between Bürckel and
Seyss-Inquart?
VON SCHIRACH: I can only repeat what was generally known in the Party
about relations between them. They were extremely bad, and all of us had
the impression that from the very beginning Bürckel worked hard to push
Seyss-Inquart out.
DR. STEINBAUER: Which one of the two really had the power in his hands?
VON SCHIRACH: Bürckel, undoubtedly.
DR. STEINBAUER: Who, in your opinion and according to the actual
information you obtained from the files, is responsible for the
persecution of Jews in Vienna?
VON SCHIRACH: Hitler.
DR. STEINBAUER: All right. You say Hitler; but Hitler was not in Vienna.
Who carried out these orders in Vienna?
VON SCHIRACH: In my opinion, these orders were carried out—even during
Bürckel’s and Seyss-Inquart’s time—by the same man who has already been
mentioned here once today and who, in the meantime, has been condemned
to death in Vienna—Dr. Brunner.
DR. STEINBAUER: Good. Are you aware that Seyss-Inquart repeatedly
protested to Bürckel about excessively severe measures and quarreled
with Bürckel on account of that?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot say anything about that. I do not know.
DR. STEINBAUER: My client has been accused in a document of presenting
to Adolf Hitler tapestries, among them Gobelins, formerly in the
Emperor’s possession. Do you know anything about that?
VON SCHIRACH: I know this: In the large collection of Gobelins in
Vienna, there were two sets depicting Alexander’s victory. The inferior
series was loaned by Reich Governor Seyss-Inquart to the Reich
Chancellery, where it hung in the lobby.
DR. STEINBAUER: So it was a loan and not a definite gift, which would
have entailed a loss for Vienna?
VON SCHIRACH: In the catalog of the Gobelin collection this set was
marked as a loan.
DR. STEINBAUER: Are you aware that other Gobelins were put at the
disposal of the Reich—that is to say, at Adolf Hitler’s disposal—by
Seyss-Inquart?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I was not aware of it.
DR. STEINBAUER: But maybe you know who did take away other such Gobelins
and tapestries?
VON SCHIRACH: I assume that you allude to Bürckel.
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes.
VON SCHIRACH: I do not know for certain whether Bürckel took Gobelins.
When I took up my appointment in Vienna, I found that Bürckel had taken
from the imperial furniture depot a number of pieces of furniture
including, I believe, some carpets, not for his personal use but for a
Viennese house which he intended to establish in Gau Saarpfalz as a sort
of clubhouse.
I therefore approached the competent office in Berlin—I do not know
whether it was the Reich Finance Ministry or the Reich Ministry of
Culture—and when I was not successful there, I approached Hitler
himself. In the end I succeeded in having Bürckel ordered to return
these objects to Vienna at once; I cannot say with certainty whether
these objects were in fact returned. I know that he received injunctions
to return them and I assume that these objects were really returned
later.
DR. STEINBAUER: All right. You know from statements which I have made to
your defense counsel that we Austrians always hated Bürckel intensely
for a number of very good reasons and that in fairness it must be
admitted that many things, including, for instance, the city’s food
supplies, improved after you took over. For this reason it seems to me
all the more important to clear up completely the most serious charge
against you. You have been made responsible in your capacity of Reich
Defense Commissioner for the destruction of the most valuable monuments
in Vienna. I ask you: On 2 April, when your deputy Scharizer and
Engineer Blaschke, the National Socialist mayor, wanted to declare
Vienna an open city as the Red Army approached, did you oppose them and
give orders that Vienna must be defended to the last? Or who gave that
order?
VON SCHIRACH: Neither Blaschke nor Scharizer expressed the view that
Vienna should be declared an open city. There was...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Steinbauer, the Tribunal understands you are
appearing for the Defendant Seyss-Inquart?
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, because this is a War Crime and in the light of
conspiracy he is responsible for everything and the main charge made
against Herr Von Schirach must be clarified—that is, we must find out
who actually gave this order which did so much harm.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, but you just said that you were not asking the
questions in defense of Seyss-Inquart, but in defense of Von Schirach. I
do not think that the Tribunal really ought to have the defense of Von
Schirach prolonged by questions by other counsel. We have already had
his defense for a considerable time presented by Dr. Sauter.
DR. STEINBAUER: Then I shall not put this question.
Do you also remember what attitude Seyss-Inquart adopted on Church
matters when dealing with Bürckel?
VON SCHIRACH: I know only that Dr. Seyss-Inquart, generally speaking,
was considered a man with Church ties. That this brought him into
conflict with Bürckel is quite obvious to me. I cannot go into details.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution wish to cross-examine?
MR. DODD: Mr. Witness, we understood you this morning to make a
statement in the nature of a confession with respect to, at least, the
persecution of the Jews; and while that part of it that you gave was
perhaps bravely enough said, I think there is much of it that you
neglected to say, perhaps through oversight.
Now, I wish you would tell the Tribunal whether or not it is a fact that
your responsibility for young people in Germany under the National
Socialists was fundamentally concerned with making really good National
Socialists out of them, in the sense of making them fanatical political
followers.
VON SCHIRACH: I considered it my task as educator to bring up the young
people to be good citizens of the National Socialist State.
MR. DODD: And ardent followers and believers in Hitler and his political
policies?
VON SCHIRACH: I believe I already said this morning that I educated our
youth to follow Hitler. I do not deny that.
MR. DODD: All right. And while you said to us that you did not have the
first responsibility for the educational system, I am sure you would not
deny that for all of the other activities with which young people may be
concerned you did have first responsibility?
VON SCHIRACH: Out-of-school education was my responsibility.
MR. DODD: And, of course, in the schools the only people who taught
these young people were those who were politically reliable in keeping
with Hitler’s opinions and beliefs and the teachings of National
Socialism?
VON SCHIRACH: The teaching staffs of German schools were definitely not
homogeneous bodies. A large part of the teaching body belonged to a
generation which had not been educated on National Socialist lines and
did not adhere to National Socialism. The young teachers had been
educated on National Socialist principles.
MR. DODD: Well, in any event, you are not saying, certainly, that young
people under the public educational system of Germany were not, at all
times, under the guidance of those who were politically reliable,
certainly after the first year or two of the administration of Hitler
and his followers, are you?
VON SCHIRACH: Would you please repeat the question? I did not quite
understand.
MR. DODD: What I am trying to say to you is that there is not any doubt
in your mind or in ours that the public school system of Germany was
supervised, for the most part at least, by people who were politically
sound insofar as National Socialism is concerned.
VON SCHIRACH: I should not care to say that. Educational administration
in Germany was supervised by Reich Minister Rust, who—and this is a
fact—for reasons of ill health took very little interest in his
official duties. Many thousands of older men were employed in connection
with educational administration. They had received their appointments
long before the days of the National Socialist State and had retained
them throughout.
MR. DODD: I do not care whether they were old or young or how long they
had been in office. They all took an oath to Hitler, did they not?
VON SCHIRACH: That is correct; inasmuch as they were civil servants,
they all took their oath as such.
MR. DODD: Rosenberg had a very considerable influence on young people in
Germany, did he not?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not believe that. I think you are estimating my
Codefendant Rosenberg’s influence on youth quite wrongly—meaning that
you are overestimating it. Rosenberg certainly had some influence on
many people who were interested in philosophical problems and were in a
position to understand his works. But I must dispute the extent of the
influence which you are ascribing to him.
MR. DODD: You publicly said on one occasion that the way of Rosenberg
was the way of the Hitler Youth, did you not?
VON SCHIRACH: That was, I believe, in 1934...
MR. DODD: Never mind when it was. Did you say it or not?
VON SCHIRACH: I did say it.
MR. DODD: When was it?
VON SCHIRACH: That was in Berlin, at a youth function there. But later I
myself led youth along an entirely different path.
MR. DODD: Well, we will get around to that a little later. But in any
event, on this occasion in Berlin, when you had a large group of your
youth leaders present, you were doing your best, at least, to have them
understand that the way of Rosenberg was the way that they should
follow?
VON SCHIRACH: But those were the same youth leaders who later received
different instructions from me.
MR. DODD: Well, I dare say that may be so. We will get around to those
different instructions; but on this occasion and at that time, insofar
as you were concerned, you wanted them to understand that they were to
follow Rosenberg’s way, didn’t you?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, but this way only affected one quite definite point,
which was under discussion at that time, namely, the question of
denominational youth organizations. Rosenberg and I agreed on this
point, whereas we differed on many others; and it was to this point that
the statement referred.
MR. DODD: Rosenberg’s way certainly wasn’t the way of young people
remaining faithful to their religious obligations or teachings, was it?
VON SCHIRACH: I would not like to say that.
MR. DODD: What do you mean? You don’t know?
VON SCHIRACH: I can say in so many words that I have never heard
Rosenberg make any statement to the effect that young people should be
disloyal to their religious convictions.
MR. DODD: Well, I don’t know that he ever said it that way either; but I
think you do know perfectly well, as many other people who were outside
of Germany through all of these years, that Rosenberg was a violent
opponent of organized religious institutions. You don’t deny that, do
you?
VON SCHIRACH: I certainly do not deny that in principle, but I do not
think that it can be expressed in these terms. Rosenberg in no way tried
to influence youth to withdraw from religious societies.
MR. DODD: And later on, actually—aren’t you willing to now say that
later on, and perhaps at that time, in a secret and indirect sort of way
you played Rosenberg’s game by arranging youth affairs at hours when
Church ceremonies were going on?
VON SCHIRACH: I deny absolutely that I worked against the Church in such
a way. In the years 1933-34, I was concerned mainly with the
denominational youth organizations. I explained that here yesterday.
MR. DODD: I know. You garbled them up, and they all had to join your
organization sooner or later. But I am not talking about that now. What
I am trying to say is—and I think you must agree—that for a
considerable period of time you made it really impossible for young
people of certain religious belief to attend their Church services,
because you scheduled your youth affairs at which attendance was
compulsory.
VON SCHIRACH: No, that is not correct.
MR. DODD: You say that is not so? Didn’t the Catholic bishops publicly
object to this very sort of thing, and don’t you know it as well as I
do?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot recall that.
MR. DODD: You do not recall any Catholic clerics objecting to the fact
that you were scheduling your youth affairs on Sunday mornings when
their clerics were holding services?
VON SCHIRACH: In the course of time, as I explained yesterday, many
clergymen either approached me personally or complained in public that
they were hampered in their spiritual ministration by the youth service
and the forms which it took; and that is why I adjusted matters in the
way shown by the document which my counsel submitted to the Court
yesterday.
MR. DODD: Well, I don’t think that is altogether an answer; and perhaps
I can help your memory by recalling for you that your organization
specifically provided that these young people, who were attending church
on Sunday, could not go in uniform; and that was a very purposeful
thing, wasn’t it, because they could not get out of church and get to
their youth attendance places at all if they had to go home and change
their clothes.
VON SCHIRACH: But in many parishes the Church authorities forbade young
people wearing uniform to enter the church.
MR. DODD: Well, I am not going to argue about it with you. Your answer
is that you don’t recall any frequent and strong criticism and objection
from churchmen about this particular Sunday morning program. Is that the
way you want to leave it?
VON SCHIRACH: I certainly do not mean that. There were periods of great
tension, periods of heated argument, just as there was a stormy period
in youth organization generally. Later, all these things were
satisfactorily settled and put in order.
MR. DODD: Now, I understood you also to say that, whatever else you may
have done with the young people of Germany during the years over which
you had control of them, you certainly did not prepare them militarily
in any sense, in any sense ordinarily accepted as being military; is
that so?
VON SCHIRACH: That is correct.
MR. DODD: Well, now, let’s see. What was the name of your personal press
expert, or consultant, if you prefer that term?
VON SCHIRACH: The press expert who worked with me longest was a Herr
Kaufmann.
MR. DODD: And you have asked him—as a matter of fact, you do have an
interrogatory from him, don’t you, which will be submitted. I assume you
know about that, don’t you?
VON SCHIRACH: I know that my counsel has applied for it, but I do not
know the answers which Kaufmann gave.
MR. DODD: Well, you know the questions he asked, don’t you?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not remember them.
MR. DODD: Well, perhaps if I remind you of one or two you will remember.
You asked him if he ever put out any press releases without your
authority. You asked him if he wasn’t your personal press consultant.
And you asked him if it wasn’t true that you personally gave him the
directive for what you wanted published in the press, and particularly
in the youth press. Do you remember those questions?
[_There was no response._]
MR. DODD: But you don’t know the answers; is that it?
[_There was no response._]
MR. DODD: Well, do you know that he published in the SS official
publication in September of 1942 an article about the young people and
the youth of Germany?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot remember that article.
MR. DODD: Well, I think that you had better have a look at it. It is
Document 3930-PS. That becomes USA-853, Mr. President.
Now, this document which I am showing you is a telegram, of course, a
teletype message, “Reich Governor in Vienna.” You will see at the top
that it was received by you on 10 September 1942, and it sets out a copy
of the subject for the body of this article for the editorial staff of
the _Schwarzes Korps_. That is the SS magazine, as you recall.
Now, you will see from reading it, and in the very first part it states
that a high-ranking officer who had come back to Berlin from Sevastopol
said that the youngsters who had been seen some 4 years ago in short
pants marching through German cities singing “Yes, the flag is more than
death,” were the 19-year-olds who took that city of Sevastopol.
The article goes on to say that the lads are fulfilling in fighting what
they promised in singing and that the National Socialist movement had
brought up a young generation, filling them with faith and self-denial,
and so on. And then the rest of it goes on in substance to say that
there were people who objected to your program at the time that you were
trying to make these youngsters strong.
The clear meaning of it is that you are now claiming credit for having
had something to do with making them the good 19-year-old fighters who
took Sevastopol, isn’t that so? You are claiming credit, I say, in this
article for having produced this kind of 19-year-old boy.
VON SCHIRACH: I had no knowledge of this article up to now.
MR. DODD: Well, you do now. You can talk about it, certainly.
VON SCHIRACH: That is just what I want to do. Herr Kaufmann at that time
had just returned from the Eastern Front, and under the impression of
what he had experienced out there he wrote down what appears in this
article, which I cannot possibly read now in its entirety.
MR. DODD: Well, it isn’t very long. Really I read what I think are the
most important parts of it insofar as you are concerned.
VON SCHIRACH: That the youth was trained in a military way I believe is
not mentioned in one single sentence in that entire article.
MR. DODD: Oh, I know. I am simply asking if it isn’t a fact that you
were claiming credit in this article for having had something
considerable to do with the fact that these 19-year-old boys were such
good fighters in Russia. That is all I am asking you.
VON SCHIRACH: I have already told you that I wanted to train the youth
to become good citizens, and that I wanted to train them to be good
patriots, who did their duty in the field later on.
MR. DODD: All right.
VON SCHIRACH: And should also do their duty in the field.
MR. DODD: Well, your answer then is, yes, you were claiming credit for
the fact that they were such good fighters. Now, there is no trick in
this question. It is merely preliminary, and I want to get on, but I
think you might say “yes.” And incidentally, this song, “The flag is
more than death,” was a song that you wrote, wasn’t it?
VON SCHIRACH: The “Flag Song” which I based on the refrain “The flag is
more than death.” That is true.
MR. DODD: Now, you have also published a number of other songs for young
people, in the formative days before the war started, in a songbook.
VON SCHIRACH: A great many songbooks for young people were published. I
do not know them all.
MR. DODD: No, I don’t either, but I am asking you if it isn’t a fact
that you did publish songbooks for young people.
VON SCHIRACH: Both the Cultural Service of the Reich Youth Leadership
and the Press Service published such books. Of course, I did not look at
each single song in them myself; but on the whole I believe that only
songs which were sung by young people appeared in these books.
MR. DODD: All right. We have some extracts from one of your songbooks,
and there is only one that I wish to refer to. Do you remember the one
“Forward, Forward,” that you wrote, by the way; another one that you
wrote. Do you remember that song?
VON SCHIRACH: “Forward, Forward” is the Flag Song of the youth
organization.
MR. DODD: All right. Did you write it?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: Well, now, certainly that also contains, does it not, highly
inciting words and phrases for young people with respect to their
military duty?
VON SCHIRACH: The Flag Song of the youth organization? I cannot see
that?
MR. DODD: Well, words, like these: “We are the future soldiers.
Everything which opposes us will fall before our fists. Führer, we
belong to you,” and so on. Do you remember that?
VON SCHIRACH: I did not say: “We are the future soldiers,” as I hear now
in English, but “We are the soldiers of the future.”
MR. DODD: All right.
VON SCHIRACH: The soldiers of the future, the bearers of a future.
MR. DODD: All right, but that is another one of your songs, isn’t it?
VON SCHIRACH: That is a revolutionary song dating from the fighting
period; it does not refer to a war between, say, Germany and other
powers, but to the fight which we had to carry on inside the country in
order to achieve our revolution.
MR. DODD: All right, we will see. Do you remember the one, “Can you see
the dawn in the East?” Do you remember that song?
VON SCHIRACH: That is not one of my songs.
MR. DODD: It is one of the songs in the Hitler Youth Songbook, is it
not?
VON SCHIRACH: That is an old SA song dating from 1923-24.
MR. DODD: Well, that may be. I am only asking you, isn’t it a fact that
it was in your official songbooks for your young people?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: It is in that song that you vilify the Jews, is it not?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not remember that. I would have to see the song.
MR. DODD: Well, I can show it to you, but perhaps if you recall it we
can save a little time. Don’t you remember that the second stanza says,
“For many years the people were enslaved and misguided, traitors and
Jews had the upper hand?” Do you remember those words in that song?
“People to Arms” is the next one.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, but I am not sure if that was published in a youth
songbook.
MR. DODD: I can assure you that it was; and if you would like to see it,
we have it here.
VON SCHIRACH: It is a very well-known SA song, which was sung by the
young people, and was therefore included in the youth songbook.
MR. DODD: All right, that is all I wanted to find out. I don’t care
where it originated. It is the kind of song you had in your songbook for
young people.
VON SCHIRACH: I should like to say one more thing. The songbook which I
have here was published in 1933.
MR. DODD: Yes?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not believe that the youth organization which I built
up can be judged from the year 1933 only.
MR. DODD: I don’t suggest that either, but we found it in 1945.
VON SCHIRACH: Later we published other songbooks, with very different
songs.
MR. DODD: Yes, I am going to get around to these in a minute.
That songbook was 3764-PS, USA-854. It has just been called to my
attention that the last phrase in that fourth stanza says: “Germany
awake! Death to Jewry! People to arms!”
VON SCHIRACH: One moment, please; where is that?
MR. DODD: In the English text, in the fourth stanza. I don’t know where
it would be; it is on Page 19, I am told, of the German text. Did you
find it?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
MR. DODD: Well, maybe it is the wrong document. In any event, we will
find it for you. However, you remember the song, do you not? You don’t
deny that it says “Death to the Jews,” and so on, do you, in that song?
VON SCHIRACH: That is the song that starts with the words, “Can you see
the dawn in the East?”
MR. DODD: That is right.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: That is all I wanted to know.
VON SCHIRACH: That song is not in this book.
[_A book was handed to the defendant._]
MR. DODD: We have quite a few of your songbooks here.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, but there is a great difference between them. This
book, which does not contain the song, is an official edition published
by the Reich Youth Leadership. As I say, it does not contain the song.
It does appear, however, in a songbook published by Tonners, a firm of
music publishers in Cologne, under the title of “Songs of the Hitler
Youth.” This book is not, however, an official collection issued by the
Reich Youth Leadership. Any publishing firm in Germany can publish such
books.
MR. DODD: All right, I will accept that, but certainly you won’t deny
that the book was used, will you? And that is all we are trying to
establish.
VON SCHIRACH: That I do not know. I do not know whether that book was
used by the Hitler Youth.
MR. DODD: Do you know that the one which it is contained in was
published by you?
[_There was no response._]
Well, in any event, I would like to point this out to you. I am not
claiming, or trying to suggest to you by questions, that any one of
these songs in themselves made young people in Germany fit for war; but
rather, what I am trying to show is that, as distinguished from the
testimony you gave here yesterday, you were doing something more than
just giving these boys and girls games to play.
VON SCHIRACH: My statements of yesterday certainly did not imply that we
only gave them games to play. For every song of this kind there are
innumerable others.
MR. DODD: Yes, I know, but these are the ones we are concerned with
right now. “Unfurl the Blood-Soaked Banners,” you remember that? “Drums
Sound Throughout the Land”?
VON SCHIRACH: These are all songs of the “Wandervogel” and the Youth
League. They are songs which were sung at the time of the Republic,
songs which did not have anything to do with our time.
MR. DODD: Just a minute.
VON SCHIRACH: They are songs which had nothing to do with our period.
MR. DODD: Do you think that anybody, in the days of the Republic, was
singing Hitler Youth marches?
VON SCHIRACH: What song is that? I do not know it.
MR. DODD: That is the one, “Drums Sound Throughout the Land.” Don’t you
remember any of these songs, actually?
VON SCHIRACH: Of course, I know quite a number of these songs; but the
most important—the bulk of them—come from the old “Zupfgeigenhansl” of
the Wandervogel movement and from the Youth League. That the SA also
sang these songs goes without saying.
MR. DODD: Yes, I don’t doubt that they did; but wherever they emanated
from, you were using them with these young people. And that one, “Drums
Sound Throughout the Land,” you wrote yourself; isn’t that so?
VON SCHIRACH: “Drums Sound Throughout the Land?” Yes, I believe I did
write some such song.
MR. DODD: All right; that certainly doesn’t have a very ancient origin
then, does it?
VON SCHIRACH: It was long before the seizure of power.
MR. DODD: Now, you also recall, perhaps, that on one occasion Field
Marshal Von Blomberg wrote an article for the Hitler Year Book. Do you
remember that?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
MR. DODD: Well, it wasn’t so very long ago. It was in 1938. I suppose
you read the Year Book of your organization for that year at that time,
anyway?
VON SCHIRACH: That may be taken for granted; but I really cannot
remember what Field Marshal Von Blomberg wrote for it.
MR. DODD: Well, all right. I would like you to look at this document; it
is 3755-PS. I think it is on Page 134 of the text that you have, Mr.
Witness; and on Pages 148 to 150 you will find an article, “Education
for War of German Youth,” or rather, it says, “The work ‘Education for
War of German Youth,’ by Dr. Stellrecht, contains a slogan of Field
Marshal Von Blomberg, in which the following passage is quoted.” And
then it goes on to give the quotation. Do you find that? “The fighting
spirit is the highest virtue of the soldier.” And so on.
Have you found the quotation of Blomberg’s? That is what I want to know.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: And then the article by Stellrecht is also contained there,
after the quotation.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: Now certainly, when you move down a few lines, you will see
this sentence: “Therefore, it is a stern and unalterable demand which
Field Marshal Von Blomberg makes of the young men marching in the
columns of the Hitler Youth,” and so on.
In those days, in 1938, Mr. Witness, you were at least thinking in terms
of future military service and so was Field Marshal Von Blomberg, with
respect to the Hitler Youth. That is the point I am trying to make.
VON SCHIRACH: We had a State with compulsory military training.
MR. DODD: I know.
VON SCHIRACH: And it goes without saying that we as educators were also
anxious to train our youth to the highest degree of physical fitness so
that they would also make good soldiers.
MR. DODD: You weren’t doing any more than that? Is that what you want
this Court to understand?
VON SCHIRACH: I described to you yesterday what else we did in the way
of rifle training, cross-country sports, and the training of special
units.
MR. DODD: That is USA-856, Mr. President.
Yes, I know you told us yesterday that, whatever else it might have
been, it certainly was not any kind of military training.
This man Stellrecht was associated with you, was he not?
VON SCHIRACH: Dr. Stellrecht had the “Office for Physical Training” in
the Hitler Youth under Reich Sport Leader Von Tschammer-Osten. That
office was one of 21 offices within the Youth Leadership.
MR. DODD: He was associated with you?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: And you have also used something from him as part of your
defense; it is in your document book. Do you know about that?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, it is a statement made by Dr. Stellrecht, in which he
speaks of education for defense and physical training for youth; and
says that not a single boy in Germany is trained with weapons of war.
MR. DODD: I know that, and therefore I want you to look at another
statement that he made on another date.
That is Document 1992-PS, Mr. President, and we offer it as USA-439.
Do you remember when he made the speech to the military men in January
of 1937, while he was affiliated with your Hitler Youth organization? Do
you know the speech to which I refer?
VON SCHIRACH: I was not present on the occasion of that speech and I do
not consider myself responsible for any statement which he may have made
in it.
MR. DODD: Well, that is your statement, but perhaps others feel
differently. At any event, I ask you whether or not you were aware of
and knew about the speech, and will you tell us whether you do know
about it before you look at it? You know the speech I am talking about,
don’t you?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot remember being informed of the fact that he spoke
at a national and political training course for the Armed Forces; but I
may have been informed of it. The speech, itself...
MR. DODD: Well, it seems to me you were very anxious to deny
responsibility for it before you knew what he said.
VON SCHIRACH: I did not want to make a statement on that. Disputes arose
between Dr. Stellrecht and myself on account of a certain tendency which
he showed with regard to defense training, because I felt that he
insisted too much on his office. Disputes arose also with the other
offices of the Reich Youth Leadership which finally led to his dismissal
from the Reich Youth Leadership.
MR. DODD: Well, in any event, he was on your staff when he made this
speech and I wish now you would look at page—well, I have it Page 3 of
the English, and it is Page 169 of the text that you have; and it begins
at the very bottom of the English page. The paragraph reads:
“As far as purely military education is concerned this work has
already been done in years of co-operation, and very
extensively. The result has been set down in a book written by
myself, regulating future work in military education down to the
last detail of training and which, with our mutual agreement,
included a foreword and preface by the Reich Defense Minister
and the Reich Youth Leader.”
And then the next paragraph:
“The basic idea of this work is always to present to the boy
that which belongs to the particular stage of his
development”—and so on. And I want you to come to the sentence
that says:
“For that reason no boy is given a military weapon, simply
because it seems to serve no useful purpose for his development.
But, on the other hand, it seems sensible to give him guns of
small caliber for training. Just as there are certain tasks
occurring in military training which are only suitable for grown
men, so there are other training tasks more suited to boys.”
And then moving down further in the English text, next to the last
paragraph, Page 170 of your text, you will find in the next to the last
paragraph that Dr. Stellrecht says:
“This picture is the goal of a comprehensive education which
starts with the training of the boy in outdoor games and ends
with his military training.”
And then moving on again to the fifth page of the English text, and I
think it is Page 171 of your text, the next to the last paragraph, in
talking about the hiking trip, he says that:
“...has still a wider purpose...because it is the only way in
which the boy can get acquainted with the fatherland for which
he will have to fight one day.”
Moving on through this article, finally, I want to direct your attention
to Page 6 of the English text and Pages 174 and 175 of your text. In the
last paragraph of the English text, you will find this sentence which
says:
“All training, therefore, culminates in rifle training. It can
scarcely be emphasized enough; and because shooting is a matter
of practice, one cannot start too early. The result we want to
achieve in the course of time is that a gun should feel just as
natural in the hands of a German boy as a pen.”
Now, move over to the next page, Page 7 of the English text and Page 176
of your text. Your Dr. Stellrecht says there more about shooting and how
it “meets with the boys’ desire”; and then he goes on to say:
“Along with the general training there is special training for
new replacements for Air Force, Navy, and motorized troops. The
training course for this has been established in conjunction
with the competent offices of the Armed Forces... on as broad a
basis as possible, and in the country cavalry training is
given.”
And I suppose it is on the next page of your text, but it is the next to
the last paragraph of the English text—I want to call your attention to
this sentence—or it is two from the last paragraph in the English text:
“Military education and ideological education belong together.” The
English text says “philosophical,” but I think that’s a mistranslation
and actually in German it is “ideological.” And you see the sentence
that says in the next paragraph:
“The education of youth has to take care that the knowledge and
the principles, according to which the State and the Armed
Forces of our time have been organized and on which they base,
enter so thoroughly into the thoughts of the individual that
they can never again be taken away and that they remain guiding
principles all through life.”
And the last paragraph of that speech, Mr. Witness—I wish you would
look at it because I think you used the term “playful” yesterday, if I
am not mistaken, and Dr. Stellrecht, anyway, a little earlier in his
speech. Here is what he said to the military men that day: “Gentlemen,
you can see that the tasks of present youth education have gone far
beyond the ‘playful.’”
Are you sure, now, that you didn’t have any kind of a program for
military training in your youth organization?
VON SCHIRACH: I can see from this document, which I should really have
to read in its entirety in order to be able to answer correctly, that
Dr. Stellrecht, to put it mildly, considered himself very important. The
importance of Dr. Stellrecht for the education of youth and the
importance of the office which he held in the Youth Leadership were
definitely not as great as implied by this training course for men of
the Armed Forces. I have already said before that disputes arose between
Dr. Stellrecht and myself on account of his exaggerations and especially
because of the extent to which he overestimated the value of rifle
training and what he called “military training” and that these
differences of opinion finally led to his dismissal and departure from
the service of the Reich Youth Leadership. He was one of many heads of
offices, and the importance of his special activity was not as great as
he has represented it to be in his statement here. I think I explained
yesterday what a large number of tasks confronted the Youth Leadership.
I was also able to indicate the approximate proportion of premilitary
training or military training, as Herr Stellrecht calls it, as compared
with other forms of training. But this document also states clearly that
there was no intention of anticipating military training, as I said
yesterday. When he says that every German boy should learn to handle the
gun as easily as the pen, that is an expression of opinion with which I
cannot identify myself.
MR. DODD: Well, of course, you have your view of him; but I think it is
well that we brought it out in view of the fact that you have yourself
offered before this Tribunal a statement by Stellrecht in your own
document book. You are aware of that, of course, aren’t you? You want,
of course, to have us understand that Stellrecht is reliable when you
quote him, but he is not reliable when we quote him; is that it?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not mean that at all. He is a specialist in
ballistics and outdoor sports and, of course, he represented his tasks,
as is natural to human nature, as being the most important in youth
training. Probably another office chief would have described cultural
work or occupational competition contests, as the case might be, as
being the most important aspects of youth training. At any rate, the
decisive pronouncement for the education of German youth was not the
remarks which Stellrecht made during a course for soldiers but my own
remarks to the youth leaders.
MR. DODD: I just want to remind you that a year after he made this
speech you wrote a preface for his book, didn’t you?
VON SCHIRACH: I believe this preface was written for the book “Hitler
Youth on Service.”
MR. DODD: I say it was a year after he wrote this speech, which was put
out and published in Germany. He not only made the speech; but it was
put out in pamphlet form, wasn’t it?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot remember exactly.
MR. DODD: Well, I can tell you if you look at the document that I handed
you. I think you will see that. Well, in any event, we will pass along.
You told the Tribunal yesterday that the statement in the _Völkischer
Beobachter_, attributed to Hitler, on 21 February 1938 was something of
a mystery to you; you did not know where he got his figures from. Did
you understand what I said, Mr. Witness?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: And do you know to what I referred in your testimony of
yesterday, that quotation from Hitler in the _Völkischer Beobachter_?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: What is wrong with those figures?
VON SCHIRACH: I think that these figures are exaggerated and I think
that there are errors in the text in my possession, which is a
translated text. He probably received these figures from Dr.
Stellrecht’s office, or so I assume. The statements regarding armored
troops were, I imagine, probably added by himself; for the conclusion
that some thousands or tens of thousands qualified for driving licenses
is really an incorrect one, just as it is incorrect to draw from the
fact that some tens of thousands of lads qualify for driving licenses
the conclusion that they were trained as tank troops.
MR. DODD: Well, you see, we didn’t say so. You understand it was your
Führer who said so in February 1938, and what I asked you was that I
wish perhaps we can go through it and you can tell the Tribunal where
they are in error and to what extent. Now Hitler said, according to the
press, that your naval Hitler Youth comprised 45,000 boys. Would you say
that figure was too large and altogether untrue?
VON SCHIRACH: No, that is correct.
MR. DODD: That is correct?
VON SCHIRACH: That is correct.
MR. DODD: He then said, the motor Hitler Youth 60,000 boys. What do you
say about that figure?
VON SCHIRACH: That is correct.
MR. DODD: And then he said that, as part of the campaign to encourage
aviation, 55,000 members of the Jungvolk were trained in gliding for
group activities. What do you say about that figure?
VON SCHIRACH: Glider training and model plane construction in the youth
organization with—may I have the figure again—50,000 youth airmen?
MR. DODD: 55,000.
VON SCHIRACH: 55,000—yes, that is correct.
MR. DODD: That’s correct. Then he says, “74,000 of the Hitler Youth are
organized in its flying units.” Now, what do you say about that figure?
VON SCHIRACH: You say “flying units”; those are “Fliegereinheiten,”
groups of Hitler youth airmen, who—as I must emphasize again—were
concerned only with gliding and the construction of model planes. There
may have been such a large number at the time.
MR. DODD: Is the figure correct, 74,000?
VON SCHIRACH: It may be.
MR. DODD: Well, he lastly says, “15,000 boys passed their gliding test
in the year 1937 alone.” What do you say about that; is it too big or
too little or not true at all?
VON SCHIRACH: No, that is probably correct.
MR. DODD: Well, now, so far you haven’t disagreed with Hitler on any of
these, have you?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
MR. DODD: Then, he lastly says, “Today, 1.2 million boys of the Hitler
Youth receive regular instruction in small-bore rifle shooting from
7,000 instructors.” What’s wrong with that figure, if anything?
VON SCHIRACH: It may be correct—of course, I have no documentary proof
that we had 7,000 young men who conducted training in small-bore rifle
shooting. I discussed this small-bore rifle shooting yesterday. It is
well known that we carried that out.
MR. DODD: Actually you haven’t disputed any of these figures. They are
true, then, to the best of your knowledge, aren’t they?
VON SCHIRACH: My objection concerned a remark, which I remember in
connection with the speech, mentioning tank force.
MR. DODD: Well, we don’t have it but, if you have it, we’d be glad to
see it. But this is the _Völkischer Beobachter_ speech that was put in
by the Prosecution at the time that the case against you was put in;
there is nothing in that about the tanks.
VON SCHIRACH: I believe the reason is that the retranslation of the
document from English back into German is incorrect.
MR. DODD: Well, in any event, we agree that Hitler wasn’t very far off
on his figures when he made this speech or gave them out?
VON SCHIRACH: No; I think the figures which you have just mentioned are
correct.
MR. DODD: All right. Now, then, in the Year Book of your Hitler Youth
for 1939, Stellrecht, your man who had charge of training, uses that
same expression. Do you recall that? “To handle a rifle should be just
as natural for everybody as to handle a pen”?
VON SCHIRACH: 1939?
MR. DODD: Yes, sir.
VON SCHIRACH: May I have the month?
MR. DODD: Well, it’s in the Year Book of the Hitler Youth for the year
1939, at Page 227. If you’d like to see it, I’ll be glad to show it to
you.
VON SCHIRACH: No, thank you. I do not have to see it. If he has already
mentioned it before, it is possible that he will repeat it.
MR. DODD: Yes. You see, the importance of it to us is that this is 2
years after he made this speech, 1 year after you wrote the preface to
his book, and I assume some time after you found him to be—what did you
say—unreliable?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I did not say that. On the contrary, he was a reliable
man, but differences of opinion arose between us because I did not agree
with him on the question of overemphasizing premilitary training.
MR. DODD: Well...
VON SCHIRACH: I considered the rifle training as constituting only a
part of our training, and not the most essential part; and he pushed it
too much into the foreground.
MR. DODD: All right. But you let him write in the Year Book; and 2
years, after he made the speech, he made this same kind of a statement
for young people to read, that they should be as handy with a rifle as
they were with a pen. Did you make any objection when that book went to
press? I assume you must have...
VON SCHIRACH: I did not see the book before it went to press...
MR. DODD: You did not proofread it?
VON SCHIRACH: ...and I had no objections to raise in particular.
MR. DODD: Did you object when you read in the same book and on the same
page that the Wehrmacht had presented to your Hitler Youth in 1937,
10,000 small-bore rifles?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I was very glad to have that gift from the Armed
Forces. As we in any case did small-bore shooting, I was grateful for
every rifle we received because we always had less than we needed for
training purposes.
MR. DODD: And were you distressed when you also read in that same Year
Book that there was no shortage of shooting ranges:
“Since organized rifle training was started in the autumn of
1936, 10,000 shooting instructors have acquired the green
shooting license in weekend courses and special courses; and
this figure increases by some thousands every year.”
Do you remember that in your Year Book for 1939?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not remember it, but I think you are probably
presenting the facts correctly; I will not dispute it. Switzerland gave
her young men a much more intensive rifle training than we did and so
did many other countries.
MR. DODD: Yes, I know.
VON SCHIRACH: I do not deny that our young men were trained in shooting.
MR. DODD: I hope you’re not comparing yourself to Switzerland, either.
VON SCHIRACH: No.
MR. DODD: This document is 3769-PS, Mr. President; it becomes USA-857.
Now, we’ve heard about this agreement that you and the Defendant Keitel
drew up in 1939, not very long before the war against Poland started. It
was in August of 1939.
It’s already in evidence, Mr. President, as USA-677.
It was the 8th day of August, wasn’t it—or 11th day; I’m sorry.
VON SCHIRACH: I do not know the exact date. The fact that the agreement
was concluded in August 1939 is enough to show that it did not have—and
could not have had—any connection with the war.
MR. DODD: You say it had no relation to the war, 3 weeks before the
attack on Poland?
VON SCHIRACH: If that agreement had had any significance for the war, it
would have had to be concluded much earlier. The fact that it was only
concluded in August shows in itself that we were not thinking of war. If
we had wanted to train youth for the war, we would have made an
agreement of this kind in 1936 or 1937.
MR. DODD: Well, in any event, will you agree to this: That this
agreement between you and Keitel certainly was related to your shooting
practice and related to the Army?
VON SCHIRACH: As far as I remember, the agreement referred to training
for outdoor sports.
MR. DODD: Well, then I had better show it to you and read from it to
you, if you have forgotten insofar that you don’t remember that it had
something to do with your shooting practice.
VON SCHIRACH: I believe that it says—and to that extent a connection
with rifle shooting does exist—that in future field sports are to
receive the same attention which has hitherto been given to shooting. I
do not know if I am giving that correctly from memory.
MR. DODD: I’ll tell you what it says and you can look at it in a minute.
It says that you already have 30,000 Hitler Youth leaders trained
annually in field service. And in the whole sentence it says:
“In the Leadership Schools of the Hitler Youth, particularly in
the two Reich schools for shooting practice and field sports and
in the District Leadership Schools, 30,000 Hitler Youth leaders
are being trained every year in field service...”
and that this agreement gives you the possibility of roughly doubling
that number.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: And it goes on to say how you will quarter these people and
billet them, and so on.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: And it does have some relationship to your shooting training
program, doesn’t it?
VON SCHIRACH: I explained that before I even saw it.
MR. DODD: Well, I misunderstood you then. I thought that you said that
it didn’t have...
VON SCHIRACH: No, no, I explained that. I said that field service should
have the same prominence as rifle training in the program; but, here
again, we are not concerned with training youth leaders to become
officers. It was not a question of military training, but of training in
field sports for the youth leaders who, after short courses—I believe
they lasted 3 weeks—went back again to their units. A young man of 16
cannot be trained along military lines in that period of time, nor was
that the purpose of the agreement.
MR. DODD: Surely you are not asking us to believe that you and Keitel
were entering into an agreement over cross-country sports, are you, in
August of 1939? Are you serious about that?
VON SCHIRACH: I am perfectly serious when I say that at that time I knew
nothing about a war—the war to come. I said yesterday...
MR. DODD: Well, but you...
VON SCHIRACH: And I do not believe either that Field Marshal Keitel
drafted that agreement; I think one of his assistants worked it out
along with Dr. Stellrecht. If it had had any significance for the war,
it would certainly not have been announced in August in an official
publication.
MR. DODD: Well, now, listen. You just look at the first paragraph of
this and read what it says the purpose of this agreement is, and perhaps
we can put an end to this discussion.
“An agreement was made between the High Command of the Wehrmacht
and the Reich Youth Leadership representing the result of close
co-operation between the Chief of the High Command of the
Wehrmacht, General Keitel, and the Youth Leader of the German
Reich, Von Schirach, and promising the co-operation of the
Wehrmacht in the military education of the Hitler Youth.”
You don’t see anything there about cross-country running, do you, or
training?
VON SCHIRACH: I should like to give an explanation as to that. What you
have just quoted is not part of the text of the agreement, but
represents a commentary by the editor of the collection _Das Archiv_.
MR. DODD: Well, I’m not going on; but I’ll leave it up to the Tribunal
to decide whether that has to do with sports or has any relation to
military education.
THE PRESIDENT: I think it is a convenient time to break off.
[_A recess was taken._]
MARSHAL: May it please the Tribunal, the report is made that the
Defendant Raeder is absent.
MR. DODD: Mr. Witness, would you agree that from time to time members of
your Hitler Youth sang songs and otherwise conducted themselves in a
manner which certainly was hostile to organized religious institutions?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not intend to deny that isolated members behaved in
that way during the early years of the National Socialist State, but I
should like to add a short explanation.
In the early years I took into my movement millions of young people from
Marxist organizations and the atheist movement, _et cetera_; and, of
course, it was not possible in the space of 2 or 3 or 4 years’ time to
discipline all of them completely. But I think I may say that after a
certain date, say 1936, things of that sort no longer happened.
MR. DODD: Well, I thought perhaps we could say, anyway, that in 1935
this sort of thing was going on and perhaps save some time. Would you
agree to that? They were singing songs such as, “Pope and Rabbi shall
yield, we want to be pagans again” and that sort of business. Are you
familiar with that? Do you know that kind of thing that came to the
attention of the Minister of Justice from the prosecuting authority in
Baden.
VON SCHIRACH: No.
MR. DODD: Do you know that they sang a song published in the songbook
“Blut und Ehre,” a song saying, “We want to kill the priest, out with
your spear, forward; set the red cock on the cloister roof.” You know
that old song?
VON SCHIRACH: That is a song dating back to the Thirty Years’ War and
sung by the youth movement for many, many years, even before the first
World War.
MR. DODD: I know, you have told me that before. I am trying to cut that
down. Will you agree that your people were singing it in 1933, 1934, and
1935, to the extent that when clerics objected they were subjected
themselves to the prosecuting authorities for interfering and
criticizing? That is how important it was.
VON SCHIRACH: I know, as I have already said, that this song dates back
to the Thirty Years’ War. It was sometimes sung by young people in the
years 1933-1934. I tried to abolish this song, but I cannot give you any
information as to special complaints which were lodged about it.
MR. DODD: I do not think that we have made clear that these songs were
put out in a book which you published for the Hitler Youth to sing in
these days. Do you agree to that?
VON SCHIRACH: I think it is possible, as for many years this song was
included in every collection. It is a song which appeared in the first
songbooks of the Wandervogel movement in 1898.
MR. DODD: I am not really interested in the history. All I am trying to
establish is that in your songbook for your young people this song was
present, that it was sung, that when the Church people complained, they
were subjected to the prosecuting authorities for complaining.
VON SCHIRACH: I must dispute the last point.
MR. DODD: Well, I will have to put this document in.
It is Number 3751-PS. These are extracts from the diary of the
prosecuting authorities, the diary of the Minister of Justice. And that
becomes USA-858.
Now, the very first entry that is shown to you is a note from the diary
of the Minister of Justice on the Catholic Vicar Paul Wasmer concerning
criminal proceedings against him, and it is a question of whether a
penal sentence should be proposed by Rosenberg because of libel. The
vicar in his sermon cited a song being sung by young people. I quoted a
few words of it a moment ago about “Pope and Rabbi shall yield, out with
the Jews,” and so on. The Minister of Justice in his diary goes on to
say that this Catholic vicar also quoted from “the little book of songs
published by Baldur von Schirach” a verse with the following text:
“To the Lord in Heaven we’ll surely say
That we his Priest would gladly slay.”
and so on:
“Out with your spear, forward march.”
And he further quoted you as saying, “The path of German youth is
Rosenberg.” Now, that is what he got into trouble for doing, and all I
am asking you—and all I did ask—is if you won’t admit that people who
criticized the use of this kind of stuff by your young people under your
leadership were subjected to possible, and in many cases actual,
prosecution? You see, you told the Tribunal yesterday that you never did
anything directly to interfere with the Church, Catholic or Protestant.
VON SCHIRACH: The song quoted, which has the refrain “Kyrieleis,” which
in itself shows it is a very old song...
MR. DODD: May I interrupt you to say...
VON SCHIRACH: ...may possibly be included in the songbook “Blood and
Honor.” I am, of course, unaware that a clergyman was prosecuted for
criticizing it. That is something new which I learn for the first time.
MR. DODD: All right. Look at Page 192 of that same diary, and you will
see where the Archbishop of Paderborn reported the incident of 12 May.
In this case he was asking that something be done to stop this sort of
thing, and there is a rather nasty little song there about a monk and a
nun, and so on, which your young people were singing; and then it goes
on to say what happened to the Archbishop when he came out into the
square and what the Hitler Youth did, what names they called him, and it
says there were seven Hitler Youth leaders from outside present in that
city that day and they were in civilian clothing. Do you mean to say you
never heard of these things?
VON SCHIRACH: I know of this incident. I called the competent leader of
the area, Langanke by name, to account for this. I had a good deal of
trouble in connection with the incident. I shall therefore ask my
counsel to question the witness Lauterbacher, who then held the rank of
Stabsführer and is acquainted with the details. Some lines of the song
you quoted just now caused a good deal of violent feeling among the
population at the time—some of those lines are quoted here—on account
of the foreign currency racketeering indulged in by some clergymen. That
is why this satirical song was sung.
I should like to say in conclusion that I thoroughly and obviously
disapproved of the attitude of these youth leaders. The whole affair is,
as I have already said, one of those incidents dating back to the years
when I had to take into my organization an enormous number of youths
from other organizations and with an entirely different intellectual
background.
MR. DODD: All right, turn to Page 228 of that diary, and you will see
where a Chaplain Heinrich Müller and a town clergyman Franz Rümmer were
under suspicion because they said in a circle of Catholic clergy that a
certain song was sung by the Hitler Youth at the Party Rally in 1934:
“We are the rollicking Hitler Youth;
We have no need of Christian truth;
For Adolf Hitler is our Leader
And our Interceder.
“No evil old priest these ties can sever;
We’re Hitler’s children now and ever.”
Wait until I get through.
VON SCHIRACH: I have not found the place.
MR. DODD: It is Page 228, a and b, I’m sorry. Maybe you will remember
the song anyway if I read it to you. Do you remember the lines that
said, “We don’t follow Christ but instead Horst Wessel”?
VON SCHIRACH: This is the first time I have seen this song. I do not
know this song.
MR. DODD: All right; I will not go on reading it. You noticed that in an
entry in the diary, the last paragraph, it says:
“The Advocate General notes that there is no doubt that the song
in question was sung or circulated in Hitler Youth circles; he
thinks that the statement that this song was sung at the Party
Rally, that is, to a certain extent under the eyes and with the
consent of the highest Party officials, can be refuted.”
VON SCHIRACH: The third stanza reads:
“I am no Christian, no Catholic;
I follow the SA through thin and thick.”
We gather that it is not a youth song. If the young people sang that
song, I very much regret it. That song was certainly not sung at a youth
festival at the Party Rally in 1934, as stated here.
MR. DODD: All right.
VON SCHIRACH: I myself read through all the programs for youth events at
the Party Rally.
I do not know this song; I have never heard it; and I do not know the
text.
MR. DODD; You will notice that the last line says: “Baldur von Schirach,
take me too!”
The only point to all this is that certainly it is a surprise to the
Prosecution to hear you say, as the Youth Leader, that you did not know
that there was a great difficulty between the churchmen of all the
churches in Germany and the youth organization in Germany, certainly
during these years.
VON SCHIRACH: The point that I should like to make clear to the Tribunal
is that in the youth movement there was a period of storm and stress, a
period of development, and that the organization must not be judged by
the actions of a few individuals or groups in the same year in which
these individuals or groups became members of the organization. The
result of educational work cannot be judged until some years have
elapsed. It is possible that a group of youths who entered our ranks
from the atheist movement in 1934 composed and sang these songs. In 1936
they would certainly no longer have done it.
MR. DODD: Well, let’s see what you were doing in 1937. You know the
publication “Enjoyment, Discipline, Faith”? Do you know that handbook
for cultural work in your youth camps?
VON SCHIRACH: I should like to see it, please.
MR. DODD: I’ll show it to you, but I wanted to ask you, first of all: Do
you know the publication? Do you know what I am talking about when I
refer to it?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not know all our publications. We had such an
enormous number of publications that unless I have the book in front of
me I cannot make any statement on the subject.
MR. DODD: All right; I’ll take your answer that you don’t know this one
without seeing it. We’ll show it to you. This one, among other things,
has the program for a week in one of your camps, a suggested series of
programs. And again I’ll ask you a question and maybe we can cut this
down.
Isn’t it a fact that in your camps you tried to make Hitler and God more
than partners and particularly tried to direct the religious attitudes
of young people to the belief that Hitler was sent to this earth by God
and was his divinely appointed in Germany?
Well, just answer that first of all, and then we can look at the
program.
VON SCHIRACH: No. I never made any comparison between Hitler and God;
and I consider it blasphemous and have always considered such a
comparison blasphemous.
It is true that during the long period of years in which I believed in
Hitler, I saw in him a man sent by God to lead the people. That is true.
I believe any great man in history—and in the past I considered Hitler
such a man—may be regarded as being sent by God.
MR. DODD: This is Document 2436-PS, USA-859.
I am not going to go all through it with you, but I do want to call your
attention to some specific parts.
First of all, on Page 64 you have the names of people suggested as
mottoes, I guess you would say, for the day. They are all political or
military heroes of Germany, I expect, aren’t they?
VON SCHIRACH: Arminius, Geiserich, Braunschweig...
MR. DODD: You don’t need to read them all. If they are not, say they
aren’t, and if they are, say “yes.” I merely asked you if they were not
all military or political heroes of Germany.
VON SCHIRACH: I do not know whether Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia
can be characterized simply as a war hero here. He was certainly an
artist as much as an officer.
MR. DODD: All right, I’ll pass that and take your answer that they are
not.
Let’s move on to the Sunday morning celebration on Page 70 of your text,
near the end of it. I wanted particularly to direct your attention to
this in view of what you said about Rosenberg earlier this afternoon:
“If there is no one who can make a short formal address—it must
be good and command attention—extracts from ‘Mein Kampf’ or
from the Führer’s speeches or Rosenberg’s works should be read.”
Do you find that?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I have found it.
MR. DODD: Well, do you still say that Rosenberg and his works had
nothing to do with your Hitler Youth? You were suggesting that, for
Sunday morning reading, they might listen to this benign philosopher’s
works, weren’t you?
VON SCHIRACH: Nothing is proved by the fact that such a reference is
made in one of the numerous handbooks of cultural work to one of the
training staff who attended those biannual discussions of Rosenberg’s
which I have already mentioned. I think you will look a long time before
you find this particular passage in one of the many youth handbooks.
MR. DODD: Let me ask you something about this. You find one line in here
for the Sunday morning celebration about a churchman, a chaplain, Holy
Scripture, or anything related to religious institutions and tell the
Tribunal where it is.
VON SCHIRACH: I take it as certain that nothing like that occurs there.
MR. DODD: That is your Sunday morning program?
VON SCHIRACH: The Hitler Youth was a state youth organization, and my
aim was to separate religious and state education. A young man who
wanted to go to church could go after the morning celebration—it was a
camp function—or before it, according to whether he wanted to attend
mass or go to a Protestant service; and on these Sundays on which he was
not in camp—the whole camp lasted 3 weeks at the outside—he was
completely free to attend church at home with his parents or other
friends.
MR. DODD: All right.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, I think it is fair to say that immediately
before the words “Page 71” there are three lines which might be said to
refer to religion.
MR. DODD: Yes, I intend to quote it. I was saving that for a little
later. I will be glad to do it now if Your Honor prefers to have it.
THE PRESIDENT: No.
MR. DODD: I want to call your attention to a historical moral ballad
that is suggested for the youth of this camp, on Page 89 of your text or
90, and on Page 6 of the English text.
Now, I am not going to read this whole ballad, but I think you will
agree that it ridicules, to put it mildly, the Jews, other political
parties in Germany. It refers to “Isidor, Isidor” in the opening lines,
and it goes on down, “Poor Michael was a wretched man; he had to serve
the Jewish clan.” In another line, “He gave the gang and the Jew a
kick.”
And then your Party youth leaders suggest that now they have a—what is
it—a shadow show:
“The nose of Isidor must be strongly exaggerated; the German
Michael should be presented in the conventional manner; the
Communist as a wild stormer of barricades; the Social Democrat
with a balloon cap; the Center Party man with a Jesuit cap, and
the reactionary with top hat and monocle.”
Did you ever see one of those shows, by the way?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot find the text you have just quoted on Page 89.
MR. DODD: I probably have given you the wrong page. I have just been
told it is Page 154 of your text—155, rather.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: Well, I just want to know about this suggested part of the
program for these young people of yours.
VON SCHIRACH: I should like to say something about the whole question as
far as this book is concerned. I wrote the preface and I accept
responsibility for the contents. I did not read every detail of this
book beforehand; and I do not wish to dispute the fact that in the camps
forming part of the camp circus, as it was called, political caricatures
were presented in the form of shadow-shows.
MR. DODD: You know one of your youngsters wrote Streicher a letter
telling him that he saw this kind of a show. Do you know about that? I
am going to show you that letter in a little while, just to show you
that it did happen, and that your young people wrote to Streicher about
it.
And on the last page of the English text, for Sunday, 19 July—I think
it is Page 179 of your text—the motto for the day is “Our service to
Germany is divine service.” And that was a slogan you used on other
Sundays, and as the Tribunal has pointed out, on Page 70 of your text
you say:
“...that this Sunday morning ceremony does not aim at presenting
arguments or conflicts with confessional points of view, but at
imbuing life and men with courage and strength to fulfill their
greater and lesser tasks through unqualified faith in the divine
power and the ideology of the Führer and his movement.”
Now, in no place where you ever made any reference to God did you ever
fail also to mention Hitler or the leaders of the Party, did you?
VON SCHIRACH: Will you please indicate the passage that you quoted just
now?
MR. DODD: It is on Page 70, right at the bottom of your Page 70.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, it says here:
“It does not aim at presenting arguments or conflicts with
confessional points of view, but at imbuing life and men with
courage and strength to fulfill their greater and lesser tasks
through unqualified faith in the divine power and the ideology
of the Führer and his Party.
That does not, after all, mean that Hitler is compared to God, but I
believe that in the answer I gave a few minutes ago I did define my
attitude.
MR. DODD: Let’s see if you don’t. In your book _Revolution of
Education_, on Page 148, do you remember this statement: “The flag of
the Third Reich”—we’ll begin the whole sentence:
“On the contrary, the service of Germany appears to us to
be...the service of God. The banner of the Third Reich appears
to us to be His banner; and the Führer of the people is the
savior whom he sent to save us from the calamity and peril into
which we were actually plunged by the most pious parties of the
defunct German Republic.”
VON SCHIRACH: I should like to see the original of this text, please.
MR. DODD: All right.
VON SCHIRACH: Here I write:
“We consider that we are serving the Almighty when with our
youthful strength we seek to make Germany once more united and
great. In acknowledging loyalty to our Homeland we see nothing
which could be construed as a contradiction of His eternal will.
On the contrary, the service of Germany appears to us to be
genuine and sincere service of God; the banner of the Third
Reich appears to us to be His banner; and the Führer of the
people is the savior whom He sent to rescue us from the calamity
and peril into which we were actually plunged by the most pious
parties of the defunct German Republic.”
This is the Center Party of the old Republic and other similar
organizations of a confessional and political nature. I wrote this. I
really do not see anything in that which could be construed into a
deification of the Führer. For me, service to my country was service to
the Almighty.
MR. DODD: All right, if that is your answer—I see it differently. Let’s
go on to something else so that we can get through. I don’t want to
neglect to show you, if you care to be shown, that communication to
Streicher. It has already been presented to the Tribunal by the British
Delegation, the British prosecutor. I think it was read from, but not
put in, I am told.
In any event, do you know about that, Mr. Witness? Do you know about the
letter that the boys and girls of the Youth Hostel at Grossmöllen wrote
to Streicher in April of 1936, when they told him about seeing the Jews,
“Every Sunday our leader shows a play about the Jews with his puppet
theater.”
I just want to know if you are aware of it.
VON SCHIRACH: I should like to say in this connection that the National
Socialist Youth Home at Grossmöllen, which is mentioned here, was not a
Hitler Youth institution but was, I believe, a kindergarten run by the
National Socialist Public Welfare Organization or some other
organization.
This is typical of the letters ordered by the publisher of _Der Stürmer_
for recruiting purposes.
MR. DODD: Just a moment. Didn’t you take over every youth hostel in
1933?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: Well, what do you mean by saying that in 1936 this National
Socialist Youth Hostel at Grossmöllen was not a part of the Hitler Youth
organization?
VON SCHIRACH: It says here youth home (Heimstätte), not hostel
(Herberge). I am not familiar with the expression “Heimstätte.” That
must refer to a home run by the National Socialist Public Welfare
Organization or the National Socialist Women’s League. We had only
“Jugendheime” and “Herbergen.”
MR. DODD: Well, doesn’t it strike you as being strangely coincidental
that in your program for one of your youth camps you suggest a show
which portrays a Jewish man with a great nose and ridicules him and
teaches children to dislike him and laugh at him and that from a youth
camp a youngster writes to Streicher saying that she and boys and girls
saw such a show?
VON SCHIRACH: This letter was not written from any youth camp.
MR. DODD: Well, I accept it if that is your answer.
VON SCHIRACH: I do not deny that this puppet play was shown and that
this letter was written; but I believe the connection is pulled in by
the hair, so to speak. The connection is a very remote one.
MR. DODD: You think the connection about the ridiculing of the Jews is
very far afield and pulled in by the hair.
VON SCHIRACH: No. I dispute the statement that this is a Hitler Youth
institution. I believe actually it is a day nursery run by the National
Socialist Public Welfare Organization or something similar.
MR. DODD: Well, maybe the explanation is that all the young people in
Germany saw one of those shows. But, in any event, I want to take up the
last matter on this subject with you.
This morning your counsel examined you about the confiscation of a
monastery, I believe it was in Austria while you were there,
Klosterneuburg. Do you remember?
VON SCHIRACH: We discussed Count Schwarzenberg’s palace this morning.
That was not a monastery. It was the property of a private citizen.
MR. DODD: Well, the document that Counsel Dr. Sauter referred to was
R-146, USA-678. It was a letter from Bormann to all Gauleiter, and it
began by saying that valuable Church properties had to be seized in
Italy and in Austria. It was signed by Bormann. And then also on that
document was a letter from Lammers saying that there had been some
dispute as to whether the seized Church property should go back to the
Reich or should remain in your Gau. You remember that, don’t you? Well,
now, you seized the monastery down there, didn’t you, in 1941, at
Klosterneuburg? Klosterneuburg, you know what I am referring to. I may
mispronounce it.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes. The well-known foundation Klosterneuburg, the famous
monastery, served as a receiving office for collections of works of art
taken from our art museum.
MR. DODD: Yes. Now, what excuse did you have for seizing the monastery
at that time?
VON SCHIRACH: I can no longer give you exact details with regard to
this. I believe there were very few people in the monastery, that the
large building was not being used to the fullest possible extent, and
that we urgently needed more space for the expansion of the experimental
station run in conjunction with our State School of Viniculture. I
believe that is why this monastery was confiscated.