3927-PS, and I wish you would remember that this morning you told the
Tribunal that you stopped the confiscation of churches and Church
property in Austria. When you look at this document I wish you to recall
your testimony.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you offer M-25 in evidence or not?
MR. DODD: I wish to do so, Mr. President. It is USA-861. And this one,
3927-PS, becomes USA-862.
Now, the first page of this document shows that it is marked secret. It
is dated 22 January 1941. It is a letter addressed to Dellbrügge in your
organization in Vienna.
He says that he hears there is a possibility of getting a Hitler School,
which the city of Hamburg is also trying to get, and that he wants the
monastery Klosterneuburg considered as the place for the Hitler School
in Vienna. This letter is written by Scharizer, your deputy, as you
described him yesterday.
Now, he enclosed a communication, a teletype letter, from Bormann; and
if you turn the page, you will see that it is dated 13 January. Bormann
says it is strictly confidential:
“It is learned that the population does not show any indignation
when monastery buildings are used to serve what appears to be a
generally appropriate purpose.”
He goes on to say:
“Their conversion into hospitals, convalescent homes,
educational institutes, Adolf Hitler Schools, may be considered
as serving a generally appropriate purpose.”
Now, that communication was dated the 13th of January, and your deputy
wrote the letter on the 22d.
Now turn another page, and you will find a Gestapo report on the
monastery, dated 23 January 1941, addressed to your assistant
Dellbrügge. I wish you would look where it says, “Oral order of 23
January 1941.” Apparently somebody in your organization, you or your
assistants, orally asked the Gestapo to get up a report on this
monastery the very day that you wrote to Berlin asking that it be
considered as a Hitler School.
There are some charges against the inhabitants of that monastery in this
Gestapo report, but I ask you to turn over further and you will find
where you wrote an order for the taking over of the monastery as an
Adolf Hitler School on 22 February 1941. I will show it to you if you
like to see it, but that order bears your initials, the original
does—Pages 15 to 17 of the photostat that you have.
Now, you framed up an excuse to seize that monastery, didn’t you, when
you really wanted it for a Hitler School; and you didn’t have any just
grounds for seizing it. And you get the Gestapo to write a report and
then you never referred to the reason that the Gestapo framed up for
you.
VON SCHIRACH: I myself as head of these schools was naturally extremely
anxious to have such a school established in Vienna. At one time the
idea expressed here of taking Klosterneuburg and housing one of the
Adolf Hitler Schools in it did occur to me, and I probably did discuss
it with Herr Scharizer; but I dropped the idea completely.
Klosterneuburg was never converted into an Adolf Hitler School.
MR. DODD: No. But it never was turned back to the Church people, either,
was it?
VON SCHIRACH: No. Since the museum space available in Vienna was not
sufficient for the very large collections, we wanted to turn this
monastery into an additional large museum which would be open to the
public. We began to carry out this plan, and a great part of the
collections was transferred to the building. In addition, we needed the
strongly built cellars of this monastery for the safekeeping of the many
art treasures which we had to protect against bombing attacks.
It occurred to me that we might house an Adolf Hitler School in this
building and I discussed the possibility with one or two of my
colleagues and then abandoned it: Firstly, because it would have caused
some ill-feeling if we had housed an Adolf Hitler School in a building
which had formerly been consecrated ground, and secondly, because we
badly needed the monastery for these other purposes.
I have nothing to add to my explanation.
MR. DODD: You will notice the date of that whole transaction and the
communication from Bormann. When did you first discover that Bormann was
so antireligious and anti-Church as you told the Tribunal he was?
VON SCHIRACH: Bormann...
MR. DODD: Just tell us when you found that out.
VON SCHIRACH: I was just about to. Bormann showed his antireligious
views most clearly in 1943; but they had already begun to appear in
1937.
MR. DODD: And this telegram from him was when? 1941?
VON SCHIRACH: 1941.
MR. DODD: Witness, when did you first start to do business with Himmler?
VON SCHIRACH: I met Hitler...
MR. DODD: Himmler.
VON SCHIRACH: I met Himmler in 1929 when I visited the offices of the
Party Leadership. At that time he was the propaganda chief of the Party.
That was our first meeting.
MR. DODD: I did not really want to know, although it’s of interest, when
you first met him. What I really wanted to know was when you with your
youth groups started really to do business with him for the first time.
And by “business” I mean arrangements such as the recruitment of young
men into the Death’s-Head Brigade of the SS.
VON SCHIRACH: I think I explained that this morning. One of the first
agreements laid down was, I think, contained in the agreement regarding
the patrol service, the date of which I do not recall. This was not, by
the way, a guarantee of reinforcements for Death’s-Head units, but for
police units generally. These were special troops to be at the disposal
of the Police.
MR. DODD: How long did you continue to channel or divert young men from
your Youth organization to the SS? When was the last time that you
remember this program being effective?
VON SCHIRACH: I did not artfully drive young people into the SS. But I
permitted the SS to recruit among young people like any other
organization.
MR. DODD: I did not ask you that. I asked you when you would say was the
latest date when you were effectively helping, at least, Himmler to get
young candidates from the young people of Germany through your Hitler
Youth organization. I do not expect an exact date. Approximately?
VON SCHIRACH: From 1940 on I tried constantly to have youth taken into
Army units. The SS, the Waffen-SS, carried on very active recruitment
among youth up to the last day of the war. I could not prevent this
recruitment.
MR. DODD: And you knew what use they were being put to in the last days
of the war and in the mid-days of the war, did you not?
VON SCHIRACH: I did know that all young people who were drafted or who
volunteered had to fight.
MR. DODD: I am talking about something other than fighting. You knew
what was going on in the East, and you knew who the guards were in the
concentration camps, did you not?
VON SCHIRACH: This morning I testified on what I knew about events in
the East. I did not know that young men who volunteered to go into the
Waffen-SS were used during the war to guard concentration camps.
MR. DODD: You did not know who were the guards there, although you
visited two of them yourself?
VON SCHIRACH: Those guards did not belong to the Waffen-SS.
MR. DODD: I know, but your agreement with Himmler provides specifically
for recruitment for SS Death’s-Head troops.
VON SCHIRACH: When I concluded that agreement, I did not know that he
effected the supervision of concentration camps chiefly by means of
Death’s-Head units. Besides, I thought at that time that concentration
camps were something quite normal. I said so this morning.
MR. DODD: You told the Tribunal yesterday that it was in 1944, I think,
that you found out about the extermination. And I want to talk to you
about that a little bit, and ask you some questions. And the first one
is, how did you find out? Was it only through this man Colin Ross?
VON SCHIRACH: I said that I heard of it through Colin Ross...
MR. DODD: All right.
VON SCHIRACH: And, furthermore, that I asked numerous questions of
everyone I could reach, in order to get definite information.
MR. DODD: Really I asked you if, from any other source, you found out?
And you can answer that pretty simply. We know that you found out
through Ross. Was there anyone else from whom you found out?
VON SCHIRACH: I could not obtain any really definite information.
MR. DODD: All right.
VON SCHIRACH: Most people had no information. I only received
positive—that is, detailed—information by way of the Warthegau.
MR. DODD: Now, as a matter of fact, you got regular reports about the
extermination of the Jews, did you not?
VON SCHIRACH: These...
MR. DODD: Written reports, I mean.
VON SCHIRACH: These reports, two of which have been submitted in this
Court, were sent to the Reich Defense Commissioner for the attention of
the expert in question. This expert passed the copies on to the
inspector—I believe—or the commander of the regular Police.
I have looked at the copy which was submitted here in Kaltenbrunner’s
case but I had never seen it before (Document 3876-PS).
MR. DODD: You mean you did not know that it was arriving in your office?
VON SCHIRACH: I have never seen this text before.
MR. DODD: All right.
VON SCHIRACH: My office was the Central Office; it was not the office of
the Reich Defense Commissioner. The affairs of the Reich Defense
Commissioner were officially in charge of the Regierungspräsident, whose
personal adviser took care of routine matters. My mail was delivered at
the Central Office.
MR. DODD: You were the Reich Defense Commissioner for that district,
were you not?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: This was an SS report of a highly confidential nature, was it
not? They were not just peddling this all over Germany?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not know how many copies of this were sent out, I
cannot say.
MR. DODD: 100, and you got the sixty-seventh copy.
VON SCHIRACH: And these copies, as I gathered from the original which I
saw, were not sent to me but to the competent adviser, a Herr Fischer.
MR. DODD: And who was Herr Fischer?
VON SCHIRACH: I have already told you this morning that I have no idea
who this Herr Fischer was. I assume that he was the expert attached to
the Regierungspräsident, the expert on defense matters.
MR. DODD: Now, I am going to show you some documents from your own
files.
We don’t have a full translation, Mr. President, because some of this we
located too late (Document 3914-PS).
But I think you will readily recognize this original is from your files.
And in there you will find—and I will direct your attention to the
page—something that I think will recall to your mind who Dr. Fischer
is.
Now, I think it is on Page 29, you will find the names of persons to
serve on the Reich Defense Council submitted; and you will find the name
of Fischer, together with General Stülpnagel, Major General Gautier, Dr.
Förster—do you find that? This was your own Reich Defense Council,
before which you appeared from time to time, and with whom you met
frequently. And I will show you documents on that, if you care to deny
it.
VON SCHIRACH: Just a moment, please. Will you please repeat the page to
me?
MR. DODD: Page 29; it is a memorandum dated 28 September 1940.
VON SCHIRACH: I have it now.
MR. DODD: Do you find the name of Dr. Fischer? You found Dr. Fischer’s
name as one of those suggested to your defense council? His is the last
name, by the way, and his signature. He is the one that suggested the
others to you.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, will you go a little bit more slowly?
MR. DODD: Yes.
VON SCHIRACH: His name is the twentieth name on the list: “Regierungsrat
Dr. Fischer, Expert for Reich Defense Matters”—in other words, expert
attached to the Regierungspräsident. I have probably seen him at some
meeting or other. I take it that he kept the minutes. However, I must
admit that I have no personal recollection of this gentleman. I cannot
attach any owner to that name; but it is clear to me now that he was the
person who took charge of incoming mail for the Reich Defense
Commissioner and probably kept the minutes as well.
MR. DODD: All right.
VON SCHIRACH: In view of his junior status—he is only a
Regierungsrat—he cannot have held any other appointment on this
council.
MR. DODD: On Page 31 of that same file you will find another reference
to him, and your initials on the paper this time. It is the membership
list of the Reich Defense Council. There are 20 persons on there, and
the last name is Fischer’s. And at the bottom of the page are your
initials, apparently approving the list. Do you see that?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes; I had to initial this list.
MR. DODD: And you approved the membership, did you not?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot swear that I would not recognize Dr. Fischer
again if I were confronted with him. He seems to have been the official
who kept the minutes. However, among the large circle of people who
attended meetings of this kind, he did not come to my attention. Only
very few Reich defense meetings of this sort actually took place. What
seems to me the decisive point is that he did not report to me
personally but to the Regierungspräsident.
MR. DODD: How could you fail to meet him? You met regularly in 1940 with
this Reich Defense Council. We have some documents here, and I will be
glad to show them to you, showing exactly what you said before that
council.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, as I said, he probably kept the minutes of the
meetings.
MR. DODD: Well surely, then, you saw him certainly on some occasions,
between 1940, the date of these files, and 1942, the date of the SS
reports on the exterminations. He apparently was with you for 2 years
before the first report that we have, which is dated 1942, and he was 1
of 20 on your council.
VON SCHIRACH: I believe I must describe the exact composition of this
Reich Defense Council. There were the leading commanding generals of the
Army and the Luftwaffe; there were various Gauleiter; there were the
people mentioned here; there was Dr. Putt, the representative of the
Economic Management Staff and all the others who are listed here. In
this large circle of people, whom I had to welcome, there was an
official who kept the minutes and who was one of many officials in my
office. These meetings, as you have probably ascertained, took place
very infrequently. Dr. Fischer did not report to me currently, nor did
he submit to me the minutes of these sessions; the Regierungspräsident
reported to me.
MR. DODD: Do you think that Heinrich Himmler or Reinhard Heydrich were
sending these reports to inferior people around Germany in these Gaue
about the exterminations in the East?
VON SCHIRACH: If these reports had been meant for me, they would have
been sent to me directly. Moreover, I said today that I do not dispute
having been informed of the shooting of Jews in the East, but at a later
period. I mentioned that in connection with the war. However, the
reports themselves were not in my hands. If these reports had been
before me, they would have had a certain note, which I would recognize
immediately.
MR. DODD: Well, let’s see. Of course they are addressed to you, to the
attention of Fischer.
But I am going to move on a little bit. Now I am going to tell you that
you got weekly reports. You haven’t seen these. What do you say to that?
VON SCHIRACH: Weekly reports?
MR. DODD: Yes.
VON SCHIRACH: I received innumerable weekly reports from every possible
office.
MR. DODD: No, I am talking about one kind of report. I am talking about
the reports from Heydrich and Himmler.
VON SCHIRACH: I do not know what you mean.
MR. DODD: Well, you had better take a look (Document 3943-PS). We have
55 of them, for 55 weeks. They are all here, and they run consecutively,
and Dr. Fischer is not involved in these. And each one bears the stamp
of your office having received it on it, and the date that it was
received.
They tell, by the way—and you can look at them—what was happening to
the Jews in the East.
VON SCHIRACH: All these probably—I cannot look at them all just now.
These reports went from the Chief of the Security Police to the Office
of the Reich Defense Commissioner. They were not, as I can tell from the
first document, initialed by myself, but bear the initials of the
Regierungspräsident. I did not receive these reports; otherwise my
initial would have to be there.
MR. DODD: Dr. Dellbrügge was the man who received them, according to the
note, and he was your chief assistant. Incidentally, I think we ought to
make this clear to the Tribunal, both of your chief assistants were SS
Brigadeführer, were they not?
VON SCHIRACH: I should in any case have stated that Dr. Dellbrügge was
one of Himmler’s confidants; but I believe...
MR. DODD: And he was your chief assistant, that is the point I am
making. And so was your other chief assistant, also an SS Brigadeführer.
VON SCHIRACH: I believe that this statement proves the opposite of what
you want to prove against me.
MR. DODD: Well, I am going to go on with these weekly reports in a
minute, but there is one thing I do want to ask you.
Were you pretty friendly with Heydrich?
VON SCHIRACH: I knew Heydrich, and while he was Reich Protector in
Prague he extended an invitation to me as President of the Southeastern
Europe Society to hold a meeting there which I accepted. However, I did
not have close personal contact with Heydrich.
MR. DODD: Did you think he was a good public servant at the time that he
was terrorizing Czechoslovakia?
VON SCHIRACH: I had the impression that Heydrich, as he said himself
during my stay in Prague, wanted to carry out a policy of conciliation,
especially in regard to Czech workers. I did not see in him an exponent
of a policy of terror. Of course, I have no practical knowledge of the
incidents which took place in Czechoslovakia. I made only this one
visit, or possibly one further visit.
MR. DODD: You sent a telegram to “Dear Martin Bormann” when Heydrich was
assassinated; do you remember that—the man who was, I understand, not
in your good standing in 1942? Do you remember when Heydrich was
assassinated by some Czech patriots in Prague?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: Do you remember what you did when you heard about it?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not remember exactly.
MR. DODD: Perhaps if I read you this telegram you will remember it.
“To Reichsleiter Bormann, Berlin, Party Chancellery; Express.
Urgent. Immediate attention.
“Dear Martin Bormann:
“I request that the following be submitted to the Führer.
“Knowing the Czech population and its attitude in Vienna as well
as in the Protectorate, I would draw your attention to the
following:
“The enemy powers and the British cliques around Beneš have for
a long time felt bitter about the co-operation generally found
among the Czech workers and their contribution to the German war
economy. They are seeking for a means to play off the Czech
population and the Reich against each other. The attack on
Heydrich was undoubtedly planned in London. The British arms of
the assailant suggest parachuted agents. London hopes by means
of this murder to induce the Reich to take extreme measures with
the aim of bringing about a resistance movement among Czech
workers. In order to prevent the world from thinking that the
population of the Protectorate is in opposition to Hitler, these
acts must immediately be branded as of British authorship. A
sudden and violent air attack on a British cultural town would
be most effective and the world would have learned of this
through the headline ‘Revenge for Heydrich.’ That alone should
induce Churchill to desist immediately from the procedure begun
in Prague of stirring up revolt. The Reich replies to the attack
at Prague by a counterattack on world public opinion.
“It is suggested that the following information be given the
press tomorrow regarding the attempt on Heydrich’s life.”
And then you go on to say that it was the work of British agents and
that it originated in Britain. You sign it, “Heil Hitler, Dein
Schirach.”
Do you remember sending that telegram to Bormann?
VON SCHIRACH: I have just been listening to the English translation. I
should like to see the German original, please.
MR. DODD: Very well.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, you read, I thought, a British “coastal” town,
did you not?
MR. DODD: No, “cultural” I meant to say, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, that is what I have got.
MR. DODD: Yes, it is “cultural.”
Incidentally, I call your attention, Mr. Witness, to the word
“cultural.” You have expressed such a great interest in culture.
THE PRESIDENT: Would it be all right to break off now, or do you want to
go on?
MR. DODD: I had hoped I could finish. I won’t be many minutes, but I do
have one or two rather important documents that I would like to put to
the witness.
Mr. President, if we recess, may I ask that the witness not be talked to
by his counsel overnight? I think it is only fair, when a witness is
under cross-examination, that he not have conversations with his
counsel.
VON SCHIRACH: I should like to say to this document...
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I should like to have this question clarified
as to whether as defense counsel I am entitled to talk with my client or
not. Mr. Dodd forbade me to talk to my client some time ago; and, of
course, I acquiesced. But, if I am told that I must not speak to my
client until the end of the cross-examination and the cross-examination
is to be continued on Monday, that means that I cannot speak with my
client tomorrow or the day after. But, in order to carry on his defense,
I must have an opportunity of discussing with my client all the points
raised here today.
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I will withdraw my request. I really forgot we
were going over until Monday. I do think it is the ordinary rule, but I
do think it might present some difficulty for the counsel here.
I want to be fair with the Tribunal. During the recess Dr. Sauter
approached the witness stand and I did tell him then that I did not
think he should talk to him during the recess while he was under
cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is the British rule, but I think in the
circumstances we had better let Dr. Sauter...
MR. DODD: I quite agree. I was thinking we would go on tomorrow, but I
do not want to interfere with his consultation over the weekend.
[_The Tribunal adjourned until 27 May 1946 at 1000 hours._]
ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY-NINTH DAY
Monday, 27 May 1946
_Morning Session_
[_The Defendant Von Schirach resumed the stand._]
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I would like to make certain that I did offer
the following documents in evidence: 3914-PS, which becomes USA-863;
3943-PS, USA-864; and 3877-PS, USA-865.
MR. DODD: Mr. Witness, at the close of the session on Friday we had just
handed to you a copy of the teletype message to Martin Bormann. I had
read it to you over this transmission system. I wish to ask you now if
you sent that message to Bormann.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I dispatched that teletype message, and I should like
to give an explanation in this connection. First...
MR. DODD: May I interrupt you just for a minute and ask that for the
little while that we will be talking today, that you wait just a minute
after your answer. I think it would help a little bit with the
interpreting. I do not think we will have any trouble this morning. I
will try to do the same thing, and perhaps we will work a little better
together.
VON SCHIRACH: First of all, then, I want to explain why I addressed
Bormann with “Du,” in the friendly form. Bormann and I come from the
same town; I knew him from Weimar, but only slightly. And when in 1928
or ’29 he came to Munich, he paid me a visit, and because he was the
elder of us he suggested to me that we should call one another “Du.” We
maintained that form until 1943, when on his own initiative he dropped
it and addressed me in his letters only with “Sie.”
Now, the text of this teletype message: We were in the third year of the
war; the Czech population both in the Protectorate of Bohemia and
Moravia and in Vienna had remained perfectly quiet; in the Protectorate
conditions were almost like those in peacetime. I had a very large Czech
population in Vienna, and as a result of the attempt on Heydrich’s life
I feared that in the Protectorate there might be unrest which would no
doubt have serious repercussions in Vienna. This was the time when
German troops were advancing on the peninsula of Kerch; it was a time
when we could not afford to have anything happen behind our front. And
simultaneously with the news of the murder of the Protector I received
official notification that the attempt, as is mentioned in this
document, had been carried out by British agents and with British
weapons.
During the same month we heard, and it was also mentioned in the
Wehrmacht communiqués, that British bombers had bombed residential areas
in Hamburg and Paris and had attacked German cultural sites at Kiel. And
so I suggested a reprisal measure to establish before the world British
guilt in this attempt and to prevent serious unrest in Czechoslovakia.
That is all I have to say. This teletype message is genuine.
May I at this point also comment on a difficulty of translation which
occurred during the last cross-examination on Friday? The German word
“Retter” was at that time translated into the English “savior.” It is an
expression which I used in my book when I described the Führer as a
“Retter,” and the difficulty lies in the translation of that word into
English: it can only be translated into English as “savior.” But
retranslated into German, “savior” means “Heiland.” In order to make
quite clear what the German “Retter” is meant to express in English, I
should have to use an explanatory phrase. If I say that the exact
translation is “rescuer,” then the real meaning of the word “Retter” is
clearly set forth; and there is nothing blasphemous in the comparison or
the description of the head of the State as a “rescuer.” But if I had
written in German that the head of the State was a “Heiland,” then, of
course, that would be blasphemy.
THE PRESIDENT: This sort of explanation should be kept for
re-examination. It is not a matter which ought to interrupt the
cross-examination.
MR. DODD: Now, I have only one or two questions to ask you in addition
about this message.
Were you thinking of some particular cultural city in Britain, like
Cambridge, Oxford, Stratford, Canterbury?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I had no definite plan in mind. I thought that one
ought to choose an objective corresponding to the sites hit by British
bombers in Germany.
MR. DODD: As long as it was a cultural city. Were you thinking of what
happened in Germany or of what happened to Heydrich?
VON SCHIRACH: I was thinking of the cultural buildings in Germany which
had been attacked, and I wanted to suggest this as an opportunity to
make clear unmistakably that the murder of Heydrich had not been
committed by the Czech population but by the Czech emigrants in London
with British support. This retaliation in the third year of the war was
to be a reply both to the attempt against Heydrich and to the attacks on
German cultural monuments.
MR. DODD: You did not make any reference in this telegram to any
so-called or alleged bombings of cultural objects in Germany, did you?
VON SCHIRACH: The Wehrmacht communiqués had already announced them, and
they were generally known.
MR. DODD: That is not what I asked you. I asked if it is not a fact that
in this teletype you made no reference at all to the alleged bombing of
cultural objects in Germany, nor did you relate your suggestion for the
bombing of a cultural town in England to any alleged cultural bombing in
Germany, but rather, you made it perfectly clear that you wanted to
strike at a cultural town in England because of what had happened to
Heydrich. That is so, is it not?
VON SCHIRACH: It was not at all necessary for me to point to the bombing
of German cultural sites. It was a fact known to the entire German
population from the daily attacks of British bombers.
MR. DODD: I suppose by this time you knew very well the general
reputation of Heydrich, did you not?
VON SCHIRACH: No, that is not correct. I considered Heydrich in this
particular case as the representative of the Reich in Bohemia and
Moravia and not as the Chief of the Gestapo.
MR. DODD: Did you know his general reputation in Germany at least at
that time?
VON SCHIRACH: I knew that he was the Chief of the Gestapo. I did not
know that he had committed the atrocities which have meanwhile become
known.
MR. DODD: You had no knowledge that he was considered “the terror of the
Gestapo”?
VON SCHIRACH: That is an expression which enemy propaganda used against
him.
MR. DODD: You mean you still think it is propaganda?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
MR. DODD: Well, was it through enemy propaganda that you heard that he
was called a terror before he was killed in 1942?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not want to say that...
MR. DODD: How did you know it?
VON SCHIRACH: I merely want to state here that for me the Reich
Protector Heydrich was during this third year of the war a person other
than the Chief of the Gestapo. This was a political matter.
MR. DODD: You did not content yourself with this suggestion to bomb
England, did you? Do you recall what else you suggested not long
afterwards?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not know.
MR. DODD: Do you recall anything that you either suggested or did by way
of further so-called retaliation for the assassination of Heydrich?
VON SCHIRACH: No. I have no recollection.
MR. DODD: You suggested evacuating all the Czechs out of Vienna, did you
not?
VON SCHIRACH: This is a suggestion which did not originate with me
personally, but which goes back to a remark about Vienna which the
Führer himself had made in 1940 while I was reporting to him at his
headquarters. I think I already mentioned during my own testimony that
he said, “Vienna must become a German city and the Jews and Czechs must
gradually be evacuated from Vienna.” I already said that during my own
testimony here.
MR. DODD: My question is: Is it not a fact that a few days after the
assassination of Heydrich you suggested the evacuation of the Czechs
from Vienna as a retaliatory measure for the assassination of Heydrich?
VON SCHIRACH: I have no recollection of it, but it is possible that in
the excitement of this event, which disquieted me greatly, I said
something like that.
MR. DODD: I suggest that you take a look at Document 3886-PS, which
becomes USA-866, Mr. President.
Now, this document consists of excerpts from the record of a meeting of
the Vienna City Council on 6 June 1942, as you will see on Page 9 of the
original. You were present, and according to these notes, you spoke as
Reichsleiter Baldur von Schirach and, moving down towards the bottom of
that page, you will find this statement:
“Finally, he”—meaning you—“disclosed that already in the
latter part of summer or in the fall of this year all Jews would
be removed from the city, and that the removal of the Czechs
would then get under way, since this is the necessary and right
answer to the crime committed against the Deputy Reich Protector
of Bohemia and Moravia.”
Do you remember saying that?
VON SCHIRACH: I have no exact recollection, but I consider that these
records here are genuine, and they probably represent the sense of what
I said at the time. I was very much perturbed by Heydrich’s death. I was
afraid of serious trouble in Bohemia and Moravia, and I expressed my
fears. The essential thing is that after calm consideration of this plan
I dropped it, and did nothing more about it.
MR. DODD: Well, in any event, I think it is perfectly clear—and I ask
you if you do not agree—that you made two suggestions at least: one for
the bombing of a cultural English town and the other for the wholesale
evacuation of the Czechs from Vienna, because of the assassination of
this man Heydrich.
VON SCHIRACH: It is true that I put the idea of such an evacuation of
the Czechs into words. It is equally true, and a historical fact, that I
dropped the idea and that it was never carried out. It is correct that I
suggested the bombing of a British cultural site as an answer to the
attempt against Heydrich and to the innumerable bombardments of German
cultural places in the third year of the war, at a time when vital
interests of the German people were at stake.
MR. DODD: Incidentally, Hitler also suggested the wholesale evacuation
of the Czechs from Czechoslovakia as a punishment for the murder of
Heydrich, did he not?
VON SCHIRACH: That I do not know.
MR. DODD: Now I want to turn to something else and see if we can get
through here rather soon this morning. You recall that on Friday we
talked a little bit about your relationship with the SS and with
Himmler, and I want to ask you this morning if it is not a fact, Mr.
Witness, that you worked very closely with Himmler and his SS from
almost the earliest days right down to almost the last days of your
regime in Vienna. I wish you would answer that question.
VON SCHIRACH: I should very much like to answer that question in great
detail.
MR. DODD: It does not require great detail in the first answer, but
later, if you feel that you have some necessary explanation, I am sure
you will be permitted to do so. Will you tell the Tribunal first of all,
rather, if it is not a fact that you did closely co-operate with Himmler
and his SS from the earliest days of your public office to the very late
days of your public office?
VON SCHIRACH: Close collaboration in the sense that Himmler had
considerable influence upon education did not exist.
MR. DODD: Let us stop right there and inquire a little bit. Is it not a
fact that Himmler assigned his SS personnel to your youth organization
for the training purpose of your young people? You can answer that very
simply. Did he or did he not?
VON SCHIRACH: For training purposes?
MR. DODD: Yes.
VON SCHIRACH: I am not aware of anything like that. The fact that there
might have been liaison officers would not be unusual, because
practically all ministries and organizations had liaison officers. What
you have just suggested, however, I do not recall.
MR. DODD: I think we had better clear this up first, and I ask you that
you look at Document 3931-PS, which is a new document which becomes
USA-867, Mr. President.
Now, Mr. Witness, if you will look at this document, you will observe
that it is a message which you sent to “Dear Party Member Bormann” in
August of 1941. It is quite long, and there will not be any necessity, I
am sure, for reading all of it, but I want to direct your attention to
some parts of it that might help your memory with respect to the SS.
By way of preliminary question, the SA apparently had suggested that it
take over some of the training of young people, had it not, some time in
the summer of 1941?
VON SCHIRACH: I said in my testimony—I think on Thursday—that already
in the spring of 1939, I believe, the SA had attempted to take over the
premilitary training of the youth of the two older age classes, and such
attempts were probably repeated in 1941.
MR. DODD: Yes, I knew you were complaining to Bormann about it when you
wrote this message. You recall now, do you not, from just looking at the
letter, that that is the whole substance of the letter—a complaint
about the attempt of the SA to directly control the training of some
young people in the Hitler Youth organization.
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot speak about this long teletype letter without
having read through it.
MR. DODD: Well, let us see. If you will turn to the second page of the
English text—you do not have any pages there; I think it is all one. It
is all a teletype, but it will be not too far down on the first part of
it. First of all, I want to have you see if you can find the statement
that “the Hitler Youth has considered it necessary from the very
beginning to make the Party itself the agency for the direction and
administration of its military training.” Do you find that passage?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
MR. DODD: Well, you will find the paragraph numbered (1) on your
teletype, small Arabic number one. You will find they start to be
numbered (1), (2), (3), and so on. Do you find that, Mr. Witness?
VON SCHIRACH: I have Roman numeral I.
MR. DODD: All right. That is what I want to call your attention to. If
we hit some place that we agree on, then we can move on. You found that
Number (1) that says that “for more than one year an agreement in draft
form has been submitted to the SA which requests that the SA cadre be
furnished for the military training of the youth,” and that the SA
leadership did not comply with this request.
Now, will you move down further, let me see, in Number (3), and then
following (3), probably down another whole length three or four
paragraphs, you will find—it is in capital letters, by the way—what I
want to call your attention to; I assume it is in capital letters in the
German:
“I would be happy if the SA would put personnel at my disposal
for support for this purpose, similar to the way in which the SS
and the Police have been doing for a long time already.”
In the English, Mr. President, that is at the bottom of Page 4 and the
top of Page 5.
[_Turning to the defendant._] Did you find that sentence?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: You say there that you would be happy if the SA would put
personnel at your disposal for support of this purpose, similar to the
way in which the SS and the Police have been doing for a long time
already, and you are referring—if you will read back to the paragraph
just ahead of that sentence—to the training of the young people. You
talk about Hitler Schools and the training of Hitler Youth. Now, it is
perfectly clear, is it not, that you did have assistance from the SS,
according to your own words, from the SS and Police, for a long time
before you sent this message?
VON SCHIRACH: During the war, yes; since the beginning of the war in
1939 we had premilitary training camps and I wanted youth instructors
for these camps. Neither the Army nor the SA could supply sufficient
instructors; the SS and the Police could place a few young officers at
my disposal.
MR. DODD: So it was only from the beginning of the war that you had
personnel from the SS and Police for the training of young people, was
it?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not think that there would have been need for SS
instructors otherwise. As I have said, we selected youth leaders from
among youth itself.
MR. DODD: I ask you again, do you want the Tribunal to understand that
it was only from the beginning of the war that you had the assistance of
SS and Police personnel assigned to your youth organization for the
training of young people?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot answer that question definitely for this reason:
we had for example a training camp for skiing practice, and it was quite
possible that one of the instructors was an SA man or an SS man only
because by chance he happened to be one of the best sportsmen in that
field. But I cannot think where such collaboration existed elsewhere.
MR. DODD: Are you able to say that you did not have SS personnel
assigned for training purposes; and I am not talking about some isolated
skimaster, I am talking about a regular program of assistance from the
SS to you in your training of young people.
VON SCHIRACH: As far as premilitary training is concerned, it was only
through this teletype message that I requested help for training
purposes. Apart from that, I do not recollect any collaboration.
MR. DODD: Do you know the term “Heuaktion”?
VON SCHIRACH: Heuaktion? I do not remember it. I do not know what is
meant by that.
MR. DODD: Well, you have been in the courtroom every day. Do you not
remember that there was proof offered here by the Prosecution concerning
the Defendant Rosenberg and an action termed Heuaktion?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not remember it at the moment; I do not know it.
MR. DODD: Do you not remember that there was some talk here in the
courtroom about the seizing of young people in the East and forcing them
to be brought to Germany, 40,000 or 50,000 youths at the ages of 10 to
14? You remember that, don’t you, and that one of the purposes was to
destroy the biological potentiality of these people? You do not know
what I refer to?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, that is an action which I now remember in connection
with this Trial. The only thing I can say on this in an official
capacity is what Axmann told me during the war—I cannot recall the
exact year—namely, that he had placed a large number of young Russians
in apprentice hostels and apprentice workshops at the Junkers works in
Dessau, and that these youths were extremely well accommodated and
looked after there. I had not been in any way concerned with this action
before, but as I stated at the beginning of my testimony here, I assume
responsibility for the actions of youth in this war; I adhere to that
statement. I do not think, however, that youth is responsible in this
case, and I recall the Defendant Rosenberg’s statements that he was
complying with the wishes of the Army and an army group in this affair.
MR. DODD: Well, we have the document here. It is already in evidence as
USA-171—the Tribunal is familiar with it—and I would like to call your
attention to the fact that in this document, which says that Rosenberg
agreed to the program of seizing or apprehending 40,000 to 50,000 youths
at the ages of 10 to 14 and the transportation of them to the Reich, it
also said that this program can be accomplished with the help of the
officers of the Hitler Youth through the Youth Bureau of Rosenberg’s
Ministry; and it also said that a number of these young people were to
be detailed to the SS and SS auxiliaries. Now, what I want to ask you
particularly is what you know about that program and how the Hitler
Youth co-operated in it?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot add to what I have already said about this
program.
MR. DODD: You were in charge of the war commitment of the Hitler Youth,
were you not, the “Kriegseinsatz”?
VON SCHIRACH: The war commitment of German youth was under immediate
direction of the Reich Youth Leader. From my own knowledge I can give
only general but no detailed information.
MR. DODD: Mr. Witness, I ask you again, were you not appointed and did
you not serve as the person responsible for the war commitment of youth
in Germany? Now, I have got the document to show your appointment if you
want to see it.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes; I do not want to deny it at all. In 1939 and 1940, as
long as I was Reich Youth Leader, I myself directed that war commitment.
MR. DODD: I am talking about an appointment that was made even later
than 1939 or 1940. You were appointed the person in charge of the war
commitment of German youth by the Führer at his headquarters in March of
1942, were you not?
VON SCHIRACH: Will you be good enough to show me the document. I
consider it possible, but I have no exact recollection.
MR. DODD: All right. It is 3933-PS, which becomes USA-868. But first of
all: You do not know you were appointed in charge of the war commitment
for youth without being shown the document?
VON SCHIRACH: No; only I cannot tell you the exact date from memory. I
was under the impression that I had been responsible for the war
commitment beginning in 1939.
MR. DODD: All right, that is all I wanted to establish, that you were in
fact responsible for it and continued to be responsible for it right up
to the end of the war. I understood you to say a minute ago that the
Reich Youth Leader was the man responsible rather than yourself?
VON SCHIRACH: No. I said that I could give you only general but no
special information, because the practical application of the war
commitment was a matter for Axmann; I do not, however, want to minimize
my own responsibility in any way.
MR. DODD: Very well. I think we are sufficiently clear about the fact
that you were certainly named to the position no matter how you now wish
to “water” your responsibility. What do you say is the date when you
first became responsible for the war commitment of youth?
VON SCHIRACH: As far as I remember, I was responsible for it beginning
1939, at the outbreak of war, but I now see that this decree was not
signed until 1942.
MR. DODD: All right; we will agree then that from that date, March 1942,
you were responsible. Now, I want to ask you to look at another
document.
VON SCHIRACH: One moment, may I explain something in this connection? I
do not know whether Hitler signed this decree in March 1942; I do not
know when it was signed. In this document Axmann tells me: the draft of
the decree is now going to the Chief of the Reich Chancellery, who will
request the official approval of the higher Reich authorities concerned,
and then Bormann...
MR. DODD: You do not need to read it, really. What do you want to say
now? Are you saying that maybe it was not signed, or maybe you were not
appointed, or are you going to say that you were appointed? Will you
please give us an answer?
VON SCHIRACH: Not at all. But I really cannot say that the date of the
publication of this decree was March 1942. It may not have been
published until May.
MR. DODD: I am not attaching any great importance to the date. I want
you to look at 345-PS, which we offer as USA-869. This may help you on
this Heuaktion program; that is, with respect to your memory.
Now, this is a telegram that the Defendant Rosenberg sent to Dr. Lammers
at the Reich Chancellery for the Führer’s headquarters on 20 July 1944.
You will observe that in the first paragraph there is stated:
“In accordance with an agreement between the Reich Marshal as
Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force, the Reichsführer SS, the
Youth Führer of the German Reich, and the Reich Minister for the
Occupied Eastern Territories, the recruiting of young Russians,
Ukrainians, White Ruthenians, Lithuanians, and Tartars, between
15 and 20 years of age, ‘will take place on a volunteer basis
for Kriegseinsatz in the Reich’”—“Kriegseinsatz” being a
program that you were responsible for clearly at that time.
Now, moving down, I want to call your attention to Paragraph 3, and I
want to remind you of the Heuaktion document that is already in
evidence. This telegram says:
“On the basis of a suggestion by military offices, the seizing
and turning over of youths between the ages of 10 to 14 to the
Reich territories will take place (Heuaktion) in a part of the
operational territory, since the youths in the operational
territory present a not insignificant burden.”
It goes on to say:
“The aim of the action is a further disposal of the youths by
placing them in the Reich Youth Movement, and the training of
apprentices for German economy in a form similar to that which
has been effected in agreement with the Plenipotentiary General
for the Allocation of Labor with White Russian Youths, which
already shows results.”
I particularly call your attention to that last phrase, “which already
shows results.”
Then the last clause in the next sentence, which says, “...these youths
are to be used later in the Occupied Eastern Territories as especially
reliable construction forces.”
You will observe that the last paragraph says that “the actions under
Points 1 and 3”—which I have just been reading—“are known to the
Führer.” And there is something about SS help in regard to this action.
You had set a time limit on that.
The next page of the document has the distribution, to the Reich
Marshal, the Reichsführer SS, the Reich Youth Führer, and the Reich
Minister of Interior, and down at the bottom, a Gauleiter bureau, among
others.
What do you know about this seizing of young people between 10 and 14
and the turning over of them to your youth organization in Germany
during these war years, and about how many thousands of them were so
kidnaped, if you know?
VON SCHIRACH: I have already said that I do not wish to minimize my
responsibility in this connection. But it was not until later that I was
informed of this matter. Not I, but somebody else was Youth Leader of
the German Reich in that year; and he made the agreement with the
Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force and the Reichsführer SS. But my own
measures were...
MR. DODD: Later you were the Youth Reichsleiter of Germany, were you
not? And you were also the war commitment officer of Youth in Germany at
this very time?
VON SCHIRACH: I was at Vienna, and the date was 20 July 1944. You will
remember that the history-making events of that time were occupying all
officials in Germany to a very great extent. Later I heard about this
matter from Axmann, and I know that the accommodation, training,
feeding, and the whole treatment of these Russian youths was actually
excellent.
MR. DODD: You also know that even at this hour the Allied forces are
trying to find thousands of these young people to return them to their
proper place? Do you know that this morning’s press carried an account
of 10,000 people that are still unlocated?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not believe that those are these young people who
were accommodated in apprentice hostels and who under exceptionally
well-ordered conditions received very good professional training.
MR. DODD: You see, it is perfectly clear from this Document 345-PS that
this program was in fact in operation. The letter from Rosenberg says
so. He says it had “already shown results.” And so your youth
organization must have had something to do with it before this message
was sent.
VON SCHIRACH: I have not at all denied that. Youth leaders were active
within the framework of the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern
Territories. And on the basis of what I have heard here during the
Trial, I can perfectly well understand that the generals in the East
said that the young people must be taken out of the combat zone. The
point was that these youngsters from 10 to 14 years of age had to be
taken away from the front.
MR. DODD: With the help of the SS?
Now, I want to show you another document, 1137-PS, which will give you
some idea, if you do not recall, of what was done with these young
people, and how many of them are involved.
That will become USA-870.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, there is a paragraph at the bottom of Page 1 of
that document which relates to another defendant.
MR. DODD: Yes, Your Honor, I am sorry; I overlooked that. I will read it
for the benefit of the record, if I may, at this time.
Mr. Witness, I direct your attention back, if I may, to this Document
345-PS, so that you will be aware of what I am reading. You will observe
that in the last paragraph of Rosenberg’s communication to Dr. Lammers
we find this sentence:
“I have learned that Gauleiter Sauckel will be at the Führer’s
headquarters on 21 July 1944. I ask that this be taken up with
him there and then a report made to the Führer.”
Sauckel was participating in this kidnaping of 10- to 14-year-olds as
well, was he? Do you know about that?
VON SCHIRACH: I have no knowledge of it. I cannot give any information
on that subject.
MR. DODD: Now, this Document 1137-PS begins with a letter from a
general, a message rather, an interoffice memorandum, dated 27 October
1944, and it closes with a report by the brigadier general of the Hitler
Youth, a man named Nickel.
Do you know Nickel, by the way? N-i-c-k-e-l?
VON SCHIRACH: The name is known to me, and probably I know the man
personally; but at the moment I do not recall more than just the name.
At any rate, he was not a brigadier general; he was a Hauptbannführer.
MR. DODD: Well, all right. Whatever he was, he was an official of the
youth organization. That is all I am trying to establish. I may have his
title wrong. We have it brigadier general.
But in any event, if you look over this document, you will see that he
is reporting about the seizing of these youths in the Occupied Eastern
Territory. This is October 1944. And he begins by saying that on 5 March
he “received an order to open an office for the recruitment of youths
from 15 to 20 years of age from the Occupied Eastern Territories for war
employment in the Reich.”
Then he goes on to cite figures, and he tells where he began his work:
Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, the middle sector of the Eastern front, the
southern sector of the Eastern front. And then on the next page of the
English—and I imagine it is also on your next page—it tells how they
were classified, those that were brought back:
“1,383 Russian SS Auxiliaries, 5,953 Ukrainian SS Auxiliaries, 2,354
White Ruthenian SS Auxiliaries, 1,012 Lithuanian SS Auxiliaries.”
Then he gets into the Air Force: “3,000 Estonian Air Force Auxiliaries,”
and so on. Some went to the Navy.
I am not going to read all of it; but it gives you an idea of what
distribution was made of these men, or young boys and girls rather than
men. You will notice that a considerable number went to the SS.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, but Hauptbannführer Nickel’s letter bears a stamp
with the words “Reich Minister for Occupied Eastern Territories.” That
means he was not acting on behalf of the Reich Youth Leader’s department
but on behalf of the Reich Ministry for the East.
MR. DODD: Yes. I also want to ask you if you will look at Page 6. I
think it is Page 5 of the original of your German. You will find what
personnel Hauptbannführer Nickel had for the purpose of carrying out his
task. He had members of the Hitler Youth, so he says: 5 leaders, 3 BDM
leaders, 71 German youth leaders as translators and assistant
instructors, 26 SS leaders, 234 noncommissioned officers and troops,
drivers, and translators of the SS. And of the Air Force personnel, he
had 37 officers, 221 non-coms, and so on.
Does that help your memory any with this program that your youth people
were engaging in? Do you recall any more of it now?
VON SCHIRACH: It does not help my memory at all, because I hear this for
the first time from this document. I was not informed of the activities
of the Eastern Ministry in Russia, and I do not know what assignment the
Eastern Ministry gave to Hitler Youth Leader Nickel. I assume
responsibility for what was done on my orders, but anything done on the
orders of others must be their responsibility.
MR. DODD: Let me show you something with respect to your answer that you
have just made. That personnel that I read out, you know, was only in
one part of the program. And on the last page of the document you will
see on how wide an area Nickel was operating. He was operating in
co-operation with the Netherlands Hitler Youth Operational Command, the
Adria Hitler Youth Operational Command, the Southern Hitler Youth
Operational Command in Slovakia and Hungary, the Lieutenant Nagel
Special Command in refugee camps within the Reich, and then,
interestingly enough, the field offices in Vienna.
That is where you were located at the time, is it not? And you are
telling the Tribunal you did not know anything about this program and
the participation of your Hitler Youth Leaders?
VON SCHIRACH: I received no written or verbal report from Nickel. His
report, as can be seen from the letter, went to the Reich Ministry for
the Occupied Eastern Territories, and to what extent the Reich Youth
Leader was being informed is not known to me. I myself do not know what
took place. What I do know of the entire affair I very clearly stated in
my testimony with reference to the Junkers works and the professional
training which these youngsters were given in Germany. Apart from that I
have no further knowledge.
MR. DODD: Observe also, if you will, Mr. Witness, that your Hitler Youth
Operational Command was in Poland, and even in northern Italy. And now I
ask you once again, as the long-time Hitler Youth Leader, as the leader
for the War Commitment of Youth, then Gauleiter in Vienna, with part of
this program being carried on in Vienna and the whole program being
carried on on this vast scale, do you want the Tribunal to believe that
you knew nothing about it?
VON SCHIRACH: I have no knowledge of it, but I assume responsibility for
it.
MR. DODD: You told the Tribunal in your direct examination that you
wrote the letter to Streicher’s _Stürmer_.
I would like to submit this in evidence, Mr. President, so that the
Tribunal will have an idea of what it appeared like on the front page of
_Der Stürmer_.
Perhaps—if you would like to look at it, you may, of course, Mr.
Witness. It is USA-871. I just wanted you to have a look at it before it
was submitted. You know about it anyway.
VON SCHIRACH: I already made a statement about that the other day.
MR. DODD: Yes, I did not wish to go into it further. What I do want to
ask you, Mr. Witness, is: Do I understand you clearly when I say that
from your testimony we gathered that it was Hitler who ordered the
evacuation of the Jews from Vienna and that you really did not suggest
it or wish to see it carried out? Is that a fair understanding of your
testimony of a day or two ago?
VON SCHIRACH: I stated the other day, and I repeat this, that the idea
of evacuating the Jews from Vienna was Hitler’s idea which he
communicated to me in 1940 at his headquarters. Furthermore, and I want
to make this quite clear, I stated that after the events of those
November days in 1938 I was actually of the opinion that it would be
better for the Jewish population to be accommodated in a closed
settlement than to be regularly singled out by Goebbels as a target for
his propaganda and his organized actions. I also said that I identified
myself with that action suggested by Hitler, but did not carry it out.
MR. DODD: Now you had a meeting at the Führer’s headquarters in October
1940. Present was the Defendant Frank and the now notorious Koch whom we
have heard so much about. Do you remember that meeting?
VON SCHIRACH: I no longer recall it exactly.
MR. DODD: Now, you mean you do not recall that meeting at all?
VON SCHIRACH: In October 1940 I was in the Reich Chancellery because
that was the time when I was organizing the evacuation of youth. It is
possible that at lunch...
THE PRESIDENT: You were asked whether you recalled a particular meeting
in October 1940 with certain particular people. Do you remember it or do
you not?
VON SCHIRACH: I have no recollection of it. If I am shown a document,
then I can confirm it.
MR. DODD: Very well; that is what I wanted to know. I will now show you
the document USSR-172. A part of this document was read over the system
for the Tribunal by Colonel Pokrovsky. Now you will observe that on 2
October—this is a memorandum, by the way, made up of the meeting. Herr
Martin Bormann compiled these notes, so I assume he was there too. After
a dinner at the Führer’s apartment there developed a conversation on the
nature of the Government General:
“The treatment of the Poles and the incorporation already
approved by the Führer for the districts Petrikau and Tomassov.”
Then it says:
“The conversation began when Reich Minister Dr. Frank informed
the Führer that the activities in the Government General could
be termed very successful. The Jews in Warsaw and other cities
were now locked up in the ghettos and Kraków would very shortly
be cleared of them. Reichsleiter Von Schirach, who had taken his
seat at the Führer’s other side, remarked that he still had more
than 50,000 Jews in Vienna whom Dr. Frank would have to take
over. Party Member Dr. Frank said this was impossible. Gauleiter
Koch then pointed out that he, too, had up to now not
transferred either Poles or Jews from the District of Ziechenau,
but that these Jews and Poles would now, of course, have to be
accepted by the Government General.”
And it goes on to say that Dr. Frank protested against this also. He
said there were not housing facilities—I am not quoting directly, I do
not want to read all of it—and that there were not sufficient other
facilities. Do you remember that conference now?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I have refreshed my memory now.
MR. DODD: Yes. And you suggested that you wanted to get 50,000 Jews
moved into Frank’s territory out of Vienna, didn’t you?
VON SCHIRACH: That is not correct. The Führer asked me how many Jews
were still in Vienna, and at that time—I mentioned this during my own
testimony the other day and it is contained in the files—there were
still 60,000 Jews in Vienna. During that conversation, in which the
question of settling Jews in the Government General was discussed, I
also said that these 60,000 Jews from Vienna were still to be
transferred to the Government General. I told you earlier that as a
result of the events of November 1938 I was in favor of the Führer’s
plan to take the Jews to a closed settlement.
MR. DODD: Well now, later on, as you know from USA-681 concerning which
your own counsel inquired, Lammers sent you a message in Vienna and he
said the Führer had decided, after receipt of one of the reports made by
you, that the 60,000 Jews in Vienna would be deported most rapidly, and
that was just 2 months after this conference that you had with Frank and
Koch and Hitler, wasn’t it?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, since 1937—and I think that becomes clear from the
Hossbach minutes—the Führer had the idea of expatriating the Jewish
population. This plan, however, did not become known to me until August
1940 when I took over the Vienna district. I reported to Hitler on that
occasion, and he asked me how many Jews there were in Vienna. I answered
his question, and he told me that he actually wanted all of them to be
settled in the Government General.
MR. DODD: How many Jews did you, in fact, deport out of your district
while you were the Gauleiter?
VON SCHIRACH: First of all, the practical measures of that action were
not in my hands. I do not know how many of these 60,000 Jews were
actually transported out of Vienna.
MR. DODD: Do you have any idea where they went to?
VON SCHIRACH: I was informed that the aged were being taken to
Theresienstadt and the others to Poland, to the Government General. On
one occasion—it was either when I took my oath of office as Governor or
when I made a speech about the evacuation of children—I even asked
Hitler how these Jews were being employed, and he told me: in accordance
with their professions.
MR. DODD: We will get around to that. You remember, don’t you, that they
were sent, at least some of them were sent, to the cities of Riga and
Minsk, and you were so notified. Do you remember receiving that
information?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
MR. DODD: Now take a look at Document 3921-PS, which becomes USA-872.
Now this is a communication concerning the evacuation of Jews, and it
shows that 50,000 Jews were to be sent to the Minsk-Riga area, and you
got a copy of this report as the Commissar for the Defense of the Reich,
and if you will look on the last page you will see an initial there of
your chief assistant, the SS man Dellbrügge, and also the stamp of your
own office as having received it.
VON SCHIRACH: I can only see that Dr. Dellbrügge marked the matter for
filing. It shows the letters “z. d. A.” to the files.
MR. DODD: And he did not tell you about this report concerning the Jews?
Even though you had been talking to Hitler about it? That they were
being moved out of your area? I suppose your chief assistant did not
bother to tell you anything about it. Is that what you want us to
understand?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: Now then, take a look at another document which will shed some
light on this one. It is USA-808, already in evidence. It tells you what
happened to the Jews in Minsk and Riga, and this was also received in
your office if you recall. Maybe it is not necessary to show it to you
again. You remember the document—that is one of those monthly reports
from Heydrich wherein he said that there were 29,000 Jews in Riga and
they had been reduced to 2,500, and that 33,210 were shot by the special
unit, and “Einsatz” group. Do you remember that?
VON SCHIRACH: During the last 2 days I looked at these monthly reports
most carefully. The bottom right-hand corner of the cover of these
monthly reports—and I want to make this categorically clear—bears
initials something like “Dr. FSCH.,” that is Dr. Fischer’s initials. At
the top the reports are not initialed by me, but by the Government
President, with the notation that they should be put into the files. If
I had read them...
MR. DODD: I am not suggesting that you had your initials on any document
like this, but I am claiming that these documents came into your
organization and into the hands of your principal assistant.
VON SCHIRACH: But I must point out that if they had been submitted to
me, then there would have been on them the notation, “submitted to the
Reichsleiter,” and the official submitting them would have initialed
this notation. If I myself had seen them, then my own initials would be
on them with the letters “K.g.,” noted.
MR. DODD: Yes. I want to remind you that the date of that report is
February 1942, and I also want to remind you that in there as well
Heydrich tells you how many Jews they had killed in Minsk. Now you made
a speech one time in Poland about the Polish or the Eastern policy of
Germany. Do you remember it, Mr. Witness?
VON SCHIRACH: In Poland?
MR. DODD: In Poland, yes.
VON SCHIRACH: In 1939 I spent a short time in Poland, but I do not think
I was there again later.
MR. DODD: Your memory seems particularly poor this morning. Don’t you
remember speaking in Katowice on 20 January 1942?
VON SCHIRACH: That is Upper Silesia.
MR. DODD: Upper Silesia, all right. Do you remember that speech?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I made a speech at Katowice.
MR. DODD: And did you talk about Hitler’s policy for the Eastern
Territories?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot say from memory what I spoke about there. I have
made many speeches.
MR. DODD: Well, I will ask that you be shown D-664, which becomes
USA-873. You were speaking to a group of Party leaders and German youth
leaders.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: In Paragraph 7, you dealt with the tasks of German youth in
the East. The Hitler Youth had carried out political schooling along the
line of the Führer’s Eastern policy and you went on to say how grateful
you were to the Führer for having turned the German people toward the
East, because the East was the destiny of your people. What did you
understand to be the Führer’s Eastern policy, or did you have a good
understanding of it at that time?
VON SCHIRACH: I said this in Upper Silesia out of gratitude for the
return of that territory to us.
MR. DODD: Well, I didn’t ask you that, really. I asked you if you then
understood the Führer’s policy when you made that speech?
VON SCHIRACH: On the basis of our victory over Poland and the recovery
of German soil, I naturally affirmed Germany’s policy.
MR. DODD: You not only affirmed it, but I want to know if you really
understood it.
VON SCHIRACH: I do not quite know how I should answer that question.
Probably Hitler’s conception of the term Eastern policy was quite
different from mine.
MR. DODD: But my point is that he had told you about it, hadn’t he, some
time before you made this speech?
You had better look back at that document you have in your hands,
USSR-172, and you will find that, after you and Frank and Koch and
Hitler finished talking about deporting the Jews from Vienna, the Führer
then told you what he intended to do with the Polish people, and it is
not a very pretty story, if you will look at it.
VON SCHIRACH: Hitler says here:
“The ideal picture would be that a Pole in the Government
General had only a small parcel of land sufficient to feed
himself and his family fairly well. Anything else he might
require in cash for clothing, additional food, and so on he
would have to earn by working in Germany. The Government General
would be the central office for providing untrained workers,
particularly agricultural workers. The livelihood of these
workers would be assured, for they could always be used as cheap
labor. There would be no question of further agricultural labor
for Poland.”
MR. DODD: Let me read a few excerpts that I think you have missed:
“The Führer further emphasized that the Poles, in direct
contrast to our German Workmen, are born for hard labor...” and
so on. “The standard of living in Poland has to be and to remain
low.”
Moving over to the next page:
“We, the Germans, had on one hand overpopulated industrial
districts, while there was also a shortage of manpower for
agriculture. That is where we could make use of Polish laborers.
For this reason, it would be right to have a large surplus of
manpower in the Government General so that every year the
laborers needed by the Reich could in fact be procured from
there. It is indispensable to keep in mind that there must be no
Polish land owners. However cruel this may sound, wherever they
are, they must be exterminated. Of course, there must be no
mixing of blood with the Poles.”
Further on, he had to stress once more that:
“There should be one master only for the Poles, the Germans. Two
masters side by side cannot exist. All representatives of the
Polish intelligentsia are to be exterminated. This sounds cruel,
but such is the law of life.”
Stopping there for a minute, by the way, Mr. Witness—you are a man of
culture, so you have told the Tribunal—how did that sentiment expressed
by the Führer impress you?
VON SCHIRACH: I have never agreed with these opinions of the Führer, and
I said here that I approached him in 1943 on the subject of this policy
in the Ukraine. When in 1942 I talked about Eastern policy in Katowice,
the German town of Katowice, to the German population of Upper Silesia,
then, of course, I did not mean this brutal Polish policy of Hitler.
MR. DODD: But you knew about it when you made the speech, did you not?
VON SCHIRACH: I did not recollect it on that occasion 2 years later, and
my speech did not mean it either.
MR. DODD: You forgot that Hitler said he must exterminate the
intelligentsia, that you must be masters of these people, that they must
remain at a low standard of living? Did that pass out of your mind so
easily?
VON SCHIRACH: I remember that speech in Katowice; I spoke there about
completely different matters. I assume that the Prosecution even has the
shorthand record of that speech and need only submit it here. This is
just a short extract.
MR. DODD: But, you see, Mr. Witness, the point is, knowing what the
policy was, I would like to have you tell the Tribunal how you could
urge and praise that policy to a group of young people and party leaders
on the occasion of this speech in Katowice.
VON SCHIRACH: The policy which I was recommending to youth leaders there
was not the policy which Hitler developed in his table talk.
MR. DODD: Of course, you said it was the Führer’s policy in your speech,
and you know what it was, but I won’t press it further if that is your
answer.
VON SCHIRACH: Very often probably—and I once said this here—I
supported the policy of the Führer out of erroneous loyalty to him. I
know that it was not right.
MR. DODD: That is what I want to know. You were, weren’t you, acting
under an impulse of loyalty to the Führer. Now you recognize it to be
erroneous, and that is all I am inquiring for, and if you tell the
Tribunal that, I shall be perfectly satisfied.
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I am prepared to admit that.
MR. DODD: Very well. And, Mr. Witness, now we are getting to it; that
goes for all these things that went on.
VON SCHIRACH: Not at all.
MR. DODD: Don’t you have to say to the Tribunal, concerning your letter
to _Der Stürmer_, and all these things you said about the Jewish people
to the young people, and this slow building up of race hatred in them,
the co-operation with the SS, your handling of the Jews in Vienna, that
for all these things you are, and for all of them, responsible?
VON SCHIRACH: No.
MR. DODD: Finally, I want to offer in evidence, Mr. President, some
excerpts from these weekly SS reports to which I referred briefly on
Friday, so that they shall be before the Tribunal. There are 55 of them,
Mr. President, and they run consecutively by weeks, and they all bear
the stamp of this defendant’s office as having been received there, and
they supplant the monthly report which was received up to the time that
weekly reports began arriving.
We have not had all of them translated or mimeographed, and if the
defendant wishes to put in any others, we will make them available, of
course. We have selected a few as samples to illustrate the kind of
report that was contained in these weekly reports, and I wish to offer
them.
The first one is Number 1, beginning on 1 May 1942, and Numbers 4, 6, 7,
9, 38, 41, and 49.
Now I want to make this clear to you, Mr. Witness, out of fairness.
Besides statements concerning what was happening to the Jews, you will
find in these weekly reports a number of statements about the partisan
affairs in the East as well. These excerpts have mostly to do with what
happened to the Jews, and we have not, Mr. President, drawn out a great
number that had to do with the partisans. There are a number, however,
that do have to do with partisans and not with the Jews, so we wish
there to be no doubt about how we offer these weekly reports. I just
want to ask you, with respect to these weekly reports: Do you this
morning recall that you did receive them every week in your office?
VON SCHIRACH: But that is not my office. My office is the Central
Office. That office was directed by the Government President, and one of
his officials initialed the files, as appears from the marking on them,
and as any official trained in German office routine can confirm. They
were then put before the Government President who marked them “for the
files” and initialed them. I could not know these documents at all.
MR. DODD: Now just a minute. You were the Reich Commissioner for the
defense of that territory; weren’t you?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: And that is the stamp that is on these weekly reports, isn’t
it?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
MR. DODD: Well, what do you mean by saying that it was not your office?
VON SCHIRACH: Because the mail, by a procedure similar to that in a
ministry, where it goes to the office of the minister, reached me in the
Central Office; and a corresponding notation had to be made on these
files. I can understand perfectly well why the Government President,
since I was overburdened with work, did not submit to me material which
had no connection at all with Vienna or my activities, but which was
merely informatory and concerned with events in Russia, mostly guerrilla
fighting in Russia.
MR. DODD: I am going to ask you again, as I have so many times in the
course of this examination: Dellbrügge, who initialed these, was your
principal assistant, wasn’t he? Yes or no?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, he was one of my three deputies.
MR. DODD: And he was also an SS man, and so was your other principal
assistant, as we asked the other day.
VON SCHIRACH: Dellbrügge was a high SS leader. He was a special
confidant of the Reichsführer SS.
MR. DODD: How did he happen to be working for you?
VON SCHIRACH: He was assigned to me there.
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I don’t think it is necessary to read any
excerpts from these weekly reports. They have been translated into four
languages, and—well, I am misinformed. I thought they were translated.
Then I think it would be better if we do have them translated and submit
them at a later date rather than take the time to read them now.
I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to re-examine? We had better adjourn now.
[_A recess was taken._]
MAJOR GENERAL G. A. ALEXANDROV (Assistant Prosecutor for the U.S.S.R.):
Do you admit that the Hitler Jugend had the task of inculcating German
youth and children, starting from 9 years of age, with Fascist ideology?
Do you hear me?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I understood you to ask, whether, I would admit
having inculcated Fascist ideas into 10- to 14-year-old children of the
Hitler Youth?
As I said in my testimony a few days ago, I saw my mission and my duty
in educating German youth to be citizens of the National Socialist
State...
THE PRESIDENT: [_Interposing._] That is not an answer to the question.
It is not necessary for you to tell us what you said in your previous
evidence. Will you just answer the question: Do you admit that you
inculcated in the Hitler Youth Hitler’s ideology? You can answer that
“yes” or “no.”
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot answer that question with “yes,” because it
referred to Fascism. There is a great difference between Fascism and
National Socialism. I cannot answer that question with “yes.” I did
educate German youth in the spirit of National Socialism, that I can
admit.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I would like you to confirm the evidence which you gave
on 16 November 1945, during your interrogation. You defined your
personal attitude to Hitler in the following way; and I quote your
evidence: “I was an enthusiastic adherent of Hitler and I considered
everything that he wrote and stated to be a manifestation of
truth.”^{[*]} Do you confirm this statement?
VON SCHIRACH: I did not say that, and that is not a record which was
submitted to me. I never spoke of Hitler as a deity, never. I remember
exactly, General, that you interrogated me on this point, and I was
asked whether I had been an enthusiastic follower. I confirmed that, and
I spoke about the time when I joined the Movement; but I never set up
the comparison with which I am now confronted in the translation; I
never said that I believed in Hitler as a deity, never.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You do not understand me correctly. Nothing is said
here about deity. Your evidence has been taken down, and I will repeat
it: “I was an enthusiastic adherent of Hitler, and I considered
everything that he wrote and stated to be a manifestation of
truth.”^{[*]}
Do you confirm this statement? Answer the question directly.
VON SCHIRACH: The translation is quite inexact. May I ask you to put the
exact question again?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I will quote your statement again: “I was an
enthusiastic adherent of Hitler, and I considered everything that he
wrote and stated to be a manifestation of truth.”^{[*]} Is that right?
VON SCHIRACH: I am accused now of having said: “I was an enthusiastic
adherent of Hitler, and I considered everything that he wrote and stated
to be the personification of truth.” That is how I understood it, and I
must say I could never have uttered such nonsense.
-----
^{[*]} The interpreter mistranslated this “and looked upon him as a
deity.”
-----
DR. SERVATIUS: May I give an explanation of this translation? I think
the correct German would have to be: “I considered what Hitler said to
be a manifestation of truth,” and not “the personification of truth”;
then it would be intelligible. There is a mistake in the interpretation.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Your defense counsel has perhaps helped you to answer
my question.
VON SCHIRACH: General, that was not my defense counsel, but the defense
counsel for the Defendant Sauckel. If it is translated “manifestation of
truth,” then of course the whole passage makes sense, and also
corresponds roughly to what I said to you when I described the period of
my youth.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Very well.
In your book entitled the _Hitler Jugend_ it said, and I quote Page 17:
“Hitler’s book, _Mein Kampf_, is our bible.” Do you confirm this? Did
you write that?
VON SCHIRACH: But I added something to that in my book _The Hitler
Youth, Its Faith and Organization_. I want to say, first of all, that I
did write this book. I wrote it...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I would like to interrupt you. I do not need such
detailed explanations, and I would like you to answer the question: Is
that sentence contained in your book?
VON SCHIRACH: I have just confirmed that, but I would like to add an
explanation. In this book—which I wrote in 1933, and which was
published in 1934—I said: “We could not yet offer detailed reasons for
our belief, we simply believed. But when Hitler’s _Mein Kampf_ appeared,
it was like a bible, which we almost learned by heart so as to answer
the questions of doubtful and deliberating critics.”
That is how I worded it at the time; that is correct.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I would like to put another more precise question to
you. Do you admit that the Hitler Jugend was a political organization
which, under the leadership of the NSDAP, carried out the policy of this
Party among German youth?
VON SCHIRACH: The Hitler Youth was a large educational community on a
political basis, but I cannot admit that it was led by the Party; it was
led by me. I was a member of the Executive Committee of the Party, and
in that sense one might speak of a Party influence. But I can see no
reason for having to confirm this, since I have already testified to it.
It is correct that the Hitler Youth was the youth organization of the
Party.
If that is the sense of your question, I will confirm it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, I just had that in view.
I would like to remind you of the tasks which Hitler had assigned for
the education of German youth. That is set out in Rauschning’s book,
which has already been submitted as documentary evidence before the
Tribunal as USSR-378. I quote Page 252 of that book:
“In my schools we will bring up youth who will make the world
shudder with fear, youth that is hard, exigent, unafraid, and
cruel. That is my wish. Youth must have all these qualities;
they must be indifferent to sufferings; they must have neither
weakness nor softness. I would like to see in their eyes the
proud, self-sufficient glitter of a beast of prey.”
You educated German youth in accordance with these demands of Hitler. Do
you admit that?
VON SCHIRACH: I will not admit what Herr Rauschning wrote. Just by
accident I was present at a conversation between Hitler and Rauschning
and, judging by it, I must say that the statements in Rauschning’s book
represent an unfaithful record of what Hitler said. Just by accident I
witnessed a conversation between them.
Hitler did not give me the directives which Rauschning sets forth here
as the guiding principles laid down by Hitler himself for the training
of the Hitler Youth.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I did not ask you to give such a detailed explanation.
I would like you to answer the question I put to you briefly in order to
shorten the time of interrogation. You have stated the Hitler Youth did
not educate German youth in the militaristic spirit and did not prepare
German youth for future aggressive wars. I would like to remind you of
certain statements you made in that very same book of yours, “Hitler
Youth,” right here on Page 83 of that book. Talking of the younger
generation, the so-called Jungvolk, you wrote:
“They carry the National Socialist characteristics. The toy
merchants are worried because these children no longer need
toys; they are interested in camp tents, spears, compasses and
maps. It is a particular trait of our youth. Everything that is
against our unity must be thrown to the flames.”
And these also were the directives which German soldiers, trained in the
Hitler Youth, followed when they set on fire houses of the peaceful
population in occupied territories, isn’t that true? Is that contained
in the book, the passage I have just read?
VON SCHIRACH: What is in front of me now, is contained in my book. What
I heard from the interpreter is not in my book.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Well, then make your corrections.
VON SCHIRACH: May I read the correct passage?
“The toy merchants have complained to me that the boys”—they
mean the Jungvolk—“no longer want toys, but are interested only
in tents, spears, compasses, and maps. I cannot help the toy
merchants, for I agree with the boys that the times of the
Indians are finally gone. What is ‘Old Shatterhand,’ what is a
trapper in the backwoods of America compared to our troop
leader? A miserable, dusty remnant from the lumber chest of our
fathers. Not only the toy merchants are complaining but also the
school-cap manufacturers. Who wears a school cap nowadays? And
who nowadays is a high-school boy or girl? In some towns the
boys have banded together and publicly burned such school caps.
Burning is, in fact, a specialty of new youth. The border fences
of the minor states of the Reich have also been reduced to ashes
in the fires of your youth.
“It is a simple but heroic philosophy; everything that is
against our unity must be thrown to the flames.”
That, General, is the expression of the “storm and stress” of youth
which has found its special unity.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: According to your opinion, the philosophy implies that
children must no longer play with toys, but must do other things. Did I
understand you correctly? I do not see any essential difference between
my quotation and yours.
VON SCHIRACH: May I say that I think the military training of the youth
of Germany falls much behind that of the Soviet Union.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This is an irrelevant comparison. On Page 98 of your
book, speaking of the Hitler Youth, you wrote:
“They strive to be political soldiers. Their model is Adolf
Hitler.”
Did you write that?
VON SCHIRACH: I have not found the place; is it Page 98?
THE PRESIDENT: The witness has admitted he wrote the whole book, hasn’t
he?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In order not to lengthen the proceedings we will pass
to the next question.
You have already spoken here of a specially created organization of
motorized Hitler Youth; you assert this organization had sport as its
aim; is that right?
VON SCHIRACH: In connection with the training of the motorized Hitler
Youth I spoke also of ground and driving exercises, and I admitted that
the motorized Hitler Youth had premilitary significance. I did not
dispute this point at all.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd cross-examined the witness at very considerable
length on these matters about the special units of the Hitler Youth, and
it really is not any good to go over it all again.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, several points which are still
unexplained will be clarified through the following questions.
Did you have knowledge of the fact that at the end of 1938 the
organization of motorized Hitler Youth consisted of 92 detachments, that
is of 100,000 young men?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot tell you from memory whether there were 92
detachments, because the word “Abteilung”—that was the translation—was
not a designation for any unit of the Hitler Youth. I gave the exact
strength of the motorized Hitler Youth for 1938 in one of my statements
here either to my defense counsel or to Mr. Dodd. I gave exact figures
of its strength in 1938.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: No, I am speaking of 1938, and you give the number of
100,000 Hitler Youths who formed the motorized youth organization. Do
you have knowledge of this?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot tell you from memory whether there were 100,000
members of the motorized Hitler Youth in 1938. There might have been
60,000 or 120,000. I cannot say; I do not know. I have not the documents
to prove it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, but I am quoting this number from data given by
the magazine _Das Archiv_. I would like to recall to you the tasks of
these organizations as they were set out in this magazine in
November-December 1939. I quote:
“The preliminary training of the motorized Hitler Youth must be
carried out in special training groups, and later in special
motorization schools of the National Socialist Motor Corps.”
I quote this excerpt according to the document book of the Defense,
Document 20, Page 50 of the Russian text. I repeat:
“The preliminary training of the motorized Hitler Youth must be
carried out in special training groups, and later in special
motorization schools of the National Socialist Motor Corps, but
this applies only to youths who have reached the age of 17 or
more. The course of instruction includes motor mechanics, a
driving license test, field driving exercises, and also
ideological schooling. Those who successfully participate in
this course of instruction will be admitted into the National
Socialist Motor Corps.”
This does not quite agree with your statement that the aim was sport,
does it?
THE PRESIDENT: We heard a long commentary about these special units, and
we really do not want to hear it any more. If you have any questions on
new matters which have not been dealt with by Mr. Dodd, we shall be glad
to hear them, but we do not want to hear about whether there are 60,000
or 70,000 or 100,000 or 120,000 Hitler Youths in the motorized units.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am only quoting what has not been mentioned yet.
THE PRESIDENT: General, we do not want to hear it. We do not want to
hear it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I will pass on to the next question.
You issued a directive for a nation-wide training scheme of the members
of the Hitler Youth, known as “Hitler Youth on Duty.” This directive
foresaw the following kind of education for the Hitler Youth: the theory
of weapons, the theory of firing, target shooting, rifle practice,
military drill, topography, and field exercises; also instruction in the
use of the field compass and the goniometer. Are you acquainted with
this directive? Do you consider that this also did not constitute
military training of German youth?
VON SCHIRACH: I spoke in great detail about the training of “Hitler
Youth on Duty” in my testimony last Thursday, and I particularly
discussed rifle training which takes up 40 pages of this book. I
mentioned in that connection that this rifle training was carried out
according to the rules of international rifle sport and that the British
Board of Education recommended this rifle training, and also the entire
book, to all Boy Scouts. I do not dispute that I published this book
_Hitler Youth_ and that it served as a guiding directive for this
training. But I already said that here the other day.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You have denied that the Hitler Youth played an
important part in the Fifth Column in Poland. Similar methods were
carried out especially in Yugoslavia. The Yugoslav Government has put at
the disposal of the Soviet Prosecution documents which estimated the
part of the “Hitler Youth on Duty,” under the leadership of the Hitler
Jugend, in the organization of the Fifth Column on Yugoslav territory.
Do you have any knowledge of this? Do you know anything about this?
VON SCHIRACH: The Hitler Youth was never active in the Fifth Column
either in Yugoslavia or anywhere else.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I will then quote excerpts from the official report of
the Yugoslav Government. This has already been submitted to the Tribunal
as Exhibit USSR-36. I quote from Page 3 of the Russian text of this
document:
“The Reich Government and the Hitler Party have secretly
organized the German minority. From 1930 they had their own
organization, the ‘Union of Culture.’ Already in 1932 Dr. Jacob
Awender held the view that the ‘Union of Culture’ should be
Fascist in its outlook. In 1935 he was put at the head of an
active youth organization which shortly afterwards received the
name of ‘Organization of Revival.’”
Do you know anything about this?
VON SCHIRACH: I cannot comment on the information which you have just
mentioned. I heard that Bohle had some youth leaders there as his
representatives, but I do not know any details. On the subject of
Yugoslavia I can tell you from my previous activity that my relations
with Yugoslav youth were very amiable and friendly in the period before
the war.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am not interested in that. I will try to help your
memory by quoting a few excerpts from a supplementary report of the
Yugoslav Government, which is submitted to the Tribunal as Yugoslav
Exhibit, Document Number USSR-357. On Page 5, in the third line of the
Russian text of this document, it says:
“In 1937 there began among the Volksdeutsche in our country an
orientation towards National Socialism, and the first groups of
youth started going to Germany for special courses of
instruction.”
Further down on Page 8, we read that later on, but before the war with
the Soviet Union, the greater part of these members became officers of
the German Army. In addition, a special SS division, “Prinz Eugen,” was
formed from among members of the youth organizations. Do you deny these
facts?
VON SCHIRACH: I can admit some; others I must deny. May I explain this?
Since 1933 I tried to bring about good relations with Yugoslav youth.
Starting in 1936 or 1937 I extended invitations to Yugoslav youth
groups, as well as to youth groups of all European countries, to visit
and inspect German youth institutions. Yugoslav youth groups actually
came to Germany in reply to my invitation. But I know nothing about the
enlisting of Yugoslav youths in the German Army; I do not believe that.
I can only say that at the time of the regency of Prince Regent Paul
there was very close collaboration with Yugoslav youth. During the war
we maintained good relations with both Serbian and Croatian youth.
German youth visited Serbia and Croatia, while Serbian and Croatian
youth came to German youth camps, German youth leader training schools,
and so on, and looked at our institutions. That, I think, is everything
I can say about this. But we had friendly relations not only with
Yugoslavia but also with many other countries.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You did not understand me correctly. I was not speaking
of Yugoslav or Croatian youth. I am speaking of the youth of the German
minority in Yugoslavia who are mentioned in this report and who, with
the help of the Hitler Youth, created centers of Fifth Column activity
to engage in subversive operations and recruit for the SS units and the
Wehrmacht. That is what I am speaking about. Are these facts known to
you?
VON SCHIRACH: I know that there were young people among the German
minority in Yugoslavia, just as in Romania and Hungary. I know that this
German youth felt that it belonged to the Hitler Youth, and I think it
is perfectly natural that these young people welcomed the German troops
on their arrival. I cannot give information on the extent to which
collaboration existed between the troops and the youth, but that it did
exist is also quite natural. Of course, it could not be considered
military collaboration, but rather the kind of co-operation which will
always exist between an occupying force and the youth of the same
country or nationality as the members of that force. But that has
nothing to do with espionage or the like.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: But the major part of the SS Division “Prinz Eugen”
which was formed on Yugoslav territory was made up of Hitler Youth
members from the German national minority in Yugoslavia; and this was
the result of the preparatory work of the Hitler Youth. Do you admit
that?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not know how the divisions of the Waffen-SS, of which
there were very many, were recruited. It is possible that some members
of the German minority were recruited then and there, but I have no
definite information on this.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I will quote a few excerpts from two German documents.
They have not yet been submitted to the Tribunal. The first excerpt is
from a book by Dr. Sepp Janko who was the youth leader in Yugoslavia,
entitled _Speeches and Articles._ He wrote:
“All our national work before 1 September 1939 depended on the
help of the Reich. When on 1 September 1939 the war began and it
at first appeared impossible to receive further aid, there was a
danger that all our work would be interrupted....”
And later:
“The fact that in this cause, so decisive for a nation and its
worth, I put at the disposal of the Führer almost the entire
German national group in the former State of Yugoslavia and gave
him so many volunteers as soldiers, is to me a subject of great
pride....”
I submit this to the Tribunal as evidence; Exhibit USSR-459.
The next excerpt is from an article, “We in the Batchka,” written in
1943 by Otto Kohler who was leader of German youth in that territory. I
submit this document to the Tribunal as Exhibit USSR-456. Otto Kohler
wrote in that article:
“Ninety percent of our youth are members of the Hitler Youth,
the youth organization for Germans abroad.”
The statements ought to convince you that the subversive activity and
organization of the Fifth Column, the “nazification” of the German
minority and its enlistment in military units were actually carried out
on Yugoslav territory through the Hitler Youth. Please answer “yes” or
“no.”
VON SCHIRACH: No. But I should like to comment on these documents. This
Dr. Sepp Janko who is said to have been the leader of the Volksdeutsche
in Yugoslavia is not known to me either by name or personally. I have
visited Yugoslavia several times in the past, but neither in 1937, when
I believe I was there for the first time, nor later in 1938 when I
visited Prince Regent Paul, did I concern myself with the Volksdeutsche
youth there or with their leaders. On those visits I spoke only with
youth of Yugoslav nationality. That is all I have to say about the first
document, which on the whole does not refer to youth at all.
The second document, which is signed by one Otto Kohler, who calls
himself the “D. J. leader”—probably German youth leader—in Subdivision
7, to that document I can only say that it was taken from a book about
German youth in Hungary which appeared in 1943. In the Batchka we had a
very large settlement of Germans, people who had been living there for
150 or 200 years, and this youth leader organized the German youth there
with the approval of the Hungarian Government and the Hungarian Minister
of Education and in collaboration with other Hungarian authorities. It
was an entirely legal measure, and no controversy existed about it
between the two countries. These young people were not members of the
German Hitler Youth, but they belonged to Hungarian youth groups of the
German minority in Hungary.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: And did the Reich Leadership of Hitler Youth have no
connection at all with such organizations abroad?
VON SCHIRACH: Of course we visited these youths. When, for instance, I
was a guest in Budapest, the Hungarians themselves asked me whether I
would like to visit the villages and the youth of the German minority.
Neither the Regent nor any other government authority had any objections
to this. There was no reason why I should ask German youth leaders to
engage in espionage in Hungary. I could just as easily have asked
Hungarian youth leaders with whom I was on very good terms.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Who was the leader of the Hitler Youth organizations
abroad? There was a special foreign section in the Reich Leadership of
the Hitler Youth. Its task was the direction of the German youth
organizations abroad, was it not?
VON SCHIRACH: That is not correct. The foreign office of the Reich Youth
Leadership was, if I may say so, the “foreign office” of the younger
generation. It was the task of the foreign office to maintain contact
with other national youth organizations, to invite youth leaders from
abroad, to organize tours of foreign youth organizations through
Germany, and to arrange visits of German youth to other countries, in
co-operation with the foreign offices of those countries; in a case like
this, the foreign office of the Reich Youth Leadership would approach
the Foreign Office, and the Foreign Office would approach the ambassador
or representative of the country involved. The Organization of Youth
Abroad to which you are referring was an organization subordinate to the
Organization of Germans Abroad, the head of which was Gauleiter Bohle,
who has already been heard in this court. This youth abroad consisted of
German nationals who formed units of the Hitler Youth in the countries
where they were living. For instance in Budapest the children of the
German colony, starting with the children of the German Minister...
THE PRESIDENT: Surely, Defendant, it is not necessary to make such a
long speech about it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You are giving too many details. The next question:
In the Ministry for the Eastern Occupied Territories, a special youth
department was created in the first main office. What do you know about
the work of this department and what was its relationship to the Reich
Leadership of the Hitler Youth? Please answer briefly.
VON SCHIRACH: From my knowledge, I can say that when the Reich Ministry
for the Occupied Eastern Territories was created, Reichsleiter Rosenberg
expressed a wish that the Reich Youth Leader should put at his disposal
an official for the youth department in the new Ministry. This official
was appointed; he was taken into the Ministry and directed its youth
department. He was, of course, responsible to the Eastern Minister. I
cannot say more about this point. Reports from this department did not
reach me.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You mean that the Reich Leadership of the Hitler Youth
appointed a representative to a post in the Ministry for Eastern
Occupied Territories, and that this gentleman did not send in any report
to the Reich Youth Leadership; is that right?
VON SCHIRACH: General, I meant that the head of this department or
whatever he was, this official in the Eastern Ministry who came from the
Hitler Youth, did not report to me. He naturally reported to his
immediate superiors in the Reich Youth Leadership. The Reich Youth
Leadership was located in Berlin, and I assume that the officials of its
staff were in constant touch with him.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: As I understand it, the measures that were carried out
by the youth department in the Reich Ministry for Eastern Occupied
Territories were carried out with the knowledge of the Reich Youth
Leadership; is that right?
VON SCHIRACH: The measures taken there were carried out according to
directions laid down by the Reich Minister, who was the immediate
superior of his officials. If actual youth measures, the treatment of
youth, and so on, were dealt with, I am sure that this official or youth
leader discussed the matter with the Reich Youth Leadership and made a
report to it. The Minister is always responsible for the youth official
in his Ministry, and not the organization from which the youth official
happens to come.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I understand. To the question put to you by your
defense counsel regarding the participation of the Hitler Youth in the
atrocities committed in Lvov, you answered that the testimony of the
French citizen, Ida Vasseau, supplied by the Extraordinary State
Commission, is not true.
Mr. President, the Soviet Prosecution has had occasion to interrogate
the witness Ida Vasseau. The defense counsel for the Defendant Schirach
also requested an interrogation. I now submit to the Tribunal excerpts
from the testimony of the witness Vasseau, dated 16 May 1946, and I
would like to submit it as Exhibit USSR-455. I shall now read the
excerpts into the record:
“The atrocities against the Jewish and the Soviet population of
Lvov were perpetrated not only by adult Germans and old Nazis,
but also by the German youth of the Fascist youth organization
in Lvov. These youngsters, dressed in uniforms, armed with heavy
sticks, hunting knives, and often with pistols, ran about the
streets, broke into Jewish apartments and destroyed everything
in them. They killed all the inhabitants of these apartments,
including the children. Very often they stopped children who
looked suspicious to them in the streets, shouted: “Stop, you
damned Jew!” and shot them on the spot. This Hitlerite youth was
often active in locating Jewish apartments, hunting Jews in
hiding, setting traps, and assaulting innocent people on the
streets, killing them if they were Jews and dragging others away
to the Gestapo. Often their victims were Russians, Poles,
Ukrainians, and people of other nationalities. This terror of
adult and young Germans continued until the last day of the
German occupation of Lvov. The intention of completely
annihilating the Jews was especially apparent in the “Ghetto
actions” in which Jewish children of various ages were
systematically killed. They were put into houses specially set
up for Jewish children and when sufficient children had been
assembled, the Gestapo accompanied by the Hitler Youth broke in
and killed them.”
I end the reading of the statement of Ida Vasseau.
Thus, the Hitler Youth in the service of the German army, SS and the
Gestapo took part in these atrocities. Do you admit that?
VON SCHIRACH: I do not believe a word of what is contained in this
document.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Well, that is your affair.
Mr. President, I am submitting to the Tribunal another document,
USSR-454, excerpts from the testimony of the German prisoner of war Gert
Bruno Knittel.
Gert Bruno Knittel, a hatter by trade, was born in 1924 in Saxony. After
1938 he was a member of the Hitler Youth. His sister Ursula was also a
member of the National Socialist League of German Girls (BDM). In 1942,
when he was 18 years old, he was called up for the German Army. Thus, he
is a typical representative of the Hitler Youth, and his testimony is
therefore of interest. This is what he relates about his service in the
German Army. I quote:
“Not less than twice a week we were called upon to comb out the
forests.”
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I must object against the use of this
document of which we have just received a copy. It does not appear from
this copy whether the document was actually signed, whether it was sworn
or who drew up this document, which seems to be a report. I must object
to this document until these questions have been clarified.
Perhaps in this connection, Mr. President, I might comment on the other
document which contains the testimony of Ida Vasseau—the writing is
difficult to read. I assume that this witness is identical with the
French national Ida Vasseau to whom a questionnaire was sent a long time
ago with the permission of the Tribunal. We have been constantly waiting
for the answers to this questionnaire, and now today we receive this
report dated 16 May 1946, which apparently refers to the same witness.
It is obvious that...
THE PRESIDENT: I am not following quite what you are saying. Are you
saying that you have issued a questionnaire to the person who is alleged
to have made this document?
DR. SAUTER: The High Tribunal approved a questionnaire to a French
woman, Ida Vasseau; I will spell the name, V-a-s-s-e-a-u. This is the
French woman, Ida Vasseau, who was working in an establishment in Lvov,
and who is mentioned in the Lvov Commission report. Perhaps you
remember, Mr. President, that one of these reports says that children
were taken from the ghetto and given to the Hitler Youth and that the
Hitler Youth used these children as live targets. That is the statement
of the witness Ida Vasseau, and I am sure that she is the same person
who is now mentioned in the report of 16 May 1946. The remarkable thing
is that in the report of 16 May 1946, she does not answer the questions
which are set down in the questionnaire, but makes further allegations
which are obviously not contained in the earlier Lvov Commission report.
This is a very mysterious matter, and I believe it would not be just to
the Defendant Von Schirach if I did not call your attention to these
contradictions.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: May I give my explanation?
THE PRESIDENT: We would like to hear you in detail, General, in answer
to what Dr. Sauter has said.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Ida Vasseau, excerpts from whose statement I have read,
is certainly the person of whom Dr. Sauter is speaking. I do not know to
whom and through what channels the interrogatory was sent; it was not
sent through our office. Ida Vasseau was interrogated on our own
initiative and we could do so only on 16 May. A special interrogatory
was not received by us, and we could not have sent it because the
evidence was given only...
THE PRESIDENT: I have only got this document here in German and it
doesn’t appear to be a document signed or made by a person called
“Vasseau” at all. I don’t know whether it is dealing with something that
Ida Vasseau is alleged to have said.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This document is signed.
THE PRESIDENT: I said it wasn’t signed by Vasseau.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This document is signed by Ida Vasseau-Thom and also by
the interrogating officials, namely the Chief of the Investigation
Branch, Public Prosecutor’s Department for the Lvov Region, Kryzanovsky,
and the public prosecutor for the Lvov Region, Kornetov. The
interrogation took place on 16 May 1946.
THE PRESIDENT: Look at this document and see if it is the right
document.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, these are excerpts from the interrogation of Ida
Vasseau.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that the same document?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, yes, that is the same document which we are now
submitting to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that the original you have got before you?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: No, this is an excerpt from the record, certified by
the Chief of Documentation of the Soviet Delegation, Colonel Karev. This
is not the original record of the interrogatory. These are excerpts from
it.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you saying that it is a document which is admissible
under Article 21 or what are you saying about it?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: We are submitting it. If the Tribunal considers that it
is necessary to bring out the original of the record, which at the
present moment is at Lvov, we will be able to do so in a short time. If
the Tribunal is not satisfied with these excerpts, we will very easily
be able to submit the record in full.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you tell us what the document is? Is it an
affidavit? Is it sworn to? Is it made before an official of the Soviet
Union?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: There is a note on the record referring to the
responsibility for false testimony, as set forth under Article 89 of the
Penal Code of the Ukrainian S.S.R. This warning is in accordance with
the requirements for legal procedure in the Soviet Union, and this
warning was given to Ida Vasseau, as a special certification on the
record shows.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you saying that it is a document which falls within
Article 21 of the Charter?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, but if the Tribunal consider it necessary, we will
later be able to submit the complete original record.
I am now asking the Tribunal to accept the excerpts from this record
which have been certified by the Chief of our Documentation Division.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, what is the date on which your interrogatory
was allowed by the Tribunal and what was the date on which it was sent
out to this person?
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, the interrogatory bears the date of 11 April.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: The interrogatory could not be sent because we did not
know where the witness Vasseau was. We only discovered it recently.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean that the interrogatory has not been administered
to the person who made this statement?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This interrogatory could not have reached its
destination because, I repeat, until quite recently the whereabouts of
the witness Vasseau was unknown.
THE PRESIDENT: When you did find out where the witness was, the
interrogatory could have been administered.
GEN; ALEXANDROV: Yes, yes, it can be sent to her. It can be done now if
it is necessary.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, may I point out the following: This woman,
Ida Vasseau, was in Lvov when this statement which is mentioned in the
Commission Report was made; that is clear from the report. I believe it
is USSR-6, but I am not quite certain. Now, on 16 May of this year, this
woman, Ida Vasseau, was also at Lvov; and her whereabouts were not
unknown, since she was interrogated on that day. I had discussed the
interrogatory which was sent to Vasseau with the Prosecution; it was at
first said that the questions were suggestive or that something was not
in order. But we came to terms and I altered the questions which I
submitted to the High Tribunal according to the wishes of the
Prosecution; so if the Soviet Delegation were willing, Ida Vasseau could
be interrogated at any time. It is remarkable that in this later
statement, this woman testified on something entirely different from
what is set forth in her previous statement, and something entirely
different from what she was asked in the interrogatory. I think it would
be useful if Ida Vasseau were examined here.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute, what previous statement do you mean? What
previous statements do you mean?
DR. SAUTER: The statement in the commission report of the City of Lvov.
This commission report was read here once and it says that the Hitler
Youth committed these outrages against the children; my questionnaire,
which the Tribunal approved, deals with this point.
THE PRESIDENT: General, was the interrogatory submitted by Dr. Sauter
shown to the witness Vasseau?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: No, it was not sent to her. May I, to clarify the
matter, come back to the history of this interrogatory? The Soviet
Prosecution submitted a document, the Report of the Extraordinary State
Commission on German Atrocities in the Lvov Region, and this document
contained a statement by the witness Ida Vasseau; no one interrogated
her at that time. In this statement she said that she witnessed how the
Hitler Youth used small children as targets. That was her statement in
the Report of the Extraordinary State Commission. This document was
accepted by the Tribunal. Then, on our own initiative—Dr. Sauter’s
interrogatory did not come to us and we did not send it out—the
whereabouts of Ida Vasseau was established. She was examined by
interrogating officers and supplemented the testimony which she had
given before the Extraordinary State Commission. I am now submitting to
the Tribunal excerpts from her interrogatory on 16 May in which she
dwelt on certain details of the treatment of children by the Hitler
Youth.
THE PRESIDENT: We all understand that, General, but the question is:
Why, if interrogatories had been allowed by the Tribunal and had been
seen by the Prosecution and were dated sometime in April, why was the
witness interrogated in May without having seen these interrogatories?
This document is dated 16 May 1946, isn’t it, Dr. Sauter?—Dr. Sauter
tells us that interrogatories allowed by the Tribunal were dated in
April.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I do not know where Dr. Sauter sent his interrogatory.
He did not send it through our office. I repeat that we did not send
this interrogatory and could not have sent it on, for we did not know
where Ida Vasseau lived. On our initiative steps were taken to establish
her whereabouts, and when we found her she was interrogated, namely on
16 May.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now.
[_The Tribunal recessed until 1415 hours._]
_Afternoon Session_
THE PRESIDENT: General, the Tribunal will not admit this document at the
present time, but it would wish that you should present the original
document and at the same time the answers to the interrogatories which
the Tribunal has ordered; and the Tribunal will call upon the Secretary
General for a report upon the whole matter.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, during the recess I had a chance to talk
this over with Dr. Sauter. He will give me the interrogatory and
measures will be taken to get the necessary replies from the witness in
the shortest possible time. Besides this the request of the Tribunal to
get the original of the document will be complied with as soon as
possible.
May I continue now with my interrogation?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, please.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I stopped at the testimony of Gert Bruno Knittel. Here
is what he relates about his service in the German Army:
“Not less than twice a week we were sent to comb the forests, to
round up guerrillas and to look for discontent against the
German regime, so that these people could be arrested and shot
immediately. Our 3d Company, Field Depot Battalion 375, caught
and shot five persons in the woods. Most possibly these persons
were not even partisans or guerrillas, but merely citizens who
went into the woods for personal matters. But we had orders to
shoot all who crossed our path in the woods. I did this together
with the other soldiers of my company.
“One day in June 1943, in a roundup in the village of Lishaysk,
we surrounded the whole place with three to four companies so
that no one could leave or enter the village. Outside each house
that had to be searched...”
THE PRESIDENT: You are cross-examining the Defendant Von Schirach who
was in Vienna. What has this document got to do with him?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This is the testimony of one of the members of the
Hitler Jugend regarding his participation in atrocities during his
service in the German Army in the occupied territory. This document is
translated into German. I need not read it. However, I would like the
witness Von Schirach to familiarize himself with this document. Did you
read this document? I am asking you this now, Witness, have you read
that document?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I have read the document. This man Knittel who is
testifying here was not a member of the Hitler Youth, but belonged
either to the Labor Service or to a unit of the Army. Earlier in his
life, just like all the other young Germans, he had been a member of the
Hitler Youth. He states that; but in this case he was acting as a member
of some unit of the Armed Forces, not as a member of the Hitler Youth.
The entire testimony seems to be of little credibility. For example, he
mentions a Hitler Youth Party...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Have you read all the testimony that is given there?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Have you read all this testimony?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In connection with this, do you admit that
participation of German youth in similar atrocities was the effect of
the special education and preparation of the Hitler Youth?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not admit that.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I have two more questions, and that will be all. Up to
what time did you hold the post of Reichsstatthalter of Vienna and
Reichsleiter of Youth Education?
VON SCHIRACH: I was head of Youth Education from 1931 and Reich Governor
of the city of Vienna since 1940.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am interested in knowing to what date, to what
moment?
VON SCHIRACH: I held both of these offices until the collapse.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You were telling here in detail about your break with
Hitler in 1943. You stated that from that time on you were politically
dead. However, you continued to hold your posts to the very end.
Therefore your break with Hitler was only theoretical, and in effect
entailed no consequences for you. Is that correct?
VON SCHIRACH: That is wrong. I described the consequences which it had
for me in my statement either on Thursday or Friday, and I also
mentioned at that time that up to the very last moment I kept my oath
which I had given to Hitler as Youth Leader, as an official, and as an
officer.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I have no more questions, Mr. President.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, in order to expedite the proceedings, I
should like to put two brief questions to Defendant Von Schirach.
The first question, Witness: in the course of the cross-examination you
were asked whether you gave the order to hold Vienna until the very last
moment and to defend the city to the last man. As far as I remember, you
answered that question in the negative. Now, I am interested in knowing
in this connection what orders you gave to your subordinates during the
last days in Vienna—I mean to the Deputy Gauleiter Scharizer and the
then Mayor Blaschke?