Mr. HUBERT. There were only four people present?
Mrs. RICH. Let me clarify the statement about Dave. He was a bartender
for the University Club on Commerce Street in Dallas. I became
associated with him and subsequently so did my husband. Well, at first
it looked all right to me. They wanted someone to pilot a boat—someone
that knew Cuba, and my husband claimed he did. Whether he did, I don’t
know. I know he did know boats. So they were going to bring Cuban
refugees out into Miami. All this was fine, because by that time
everyone knew Castro for what he appears to be, shall we say. So I said
sure, why not—$10,000. I said that is fine.
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand from that that you and your husband were to
receive $10,000 for your services?
Mrs. RICH. Well, I was incidental.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I would like to know.
Mrs. RICH. I say I was incidental. My husband was.
Mr. HUBERT. Your husband was to receive $10,000?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who told him so?
Mrs. RICH. The colonel.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did this meeting take place?
Mrs. RICH. In Dallas at an apartment building. Again, I can describe
that darned building to a “T” and I couldn’t tell you what street it is
on.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe it for us, please?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was sitting—if I may do it in diagram.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what section of the city it was?
Mrs. RICH. No; this I don’t. You come along—let’s say this is your
main street, that the apartment building set on. We have an apartment
building, not setting facing the street, but with the side towards the
street. A hill slopes up. There is a path that kind of winds around.
There are flowers and gardens here; and in them I believe there is
a little fountain—and in them was lights—illuminating the gardens;
and you have to come up a little hill, and walk around—I am not sure
whether there was a gravel path or not, or whether it is flagstone—and
into the building here. And it was a double deck, I believe—perhaps a
triple.
Mr. HUBERT. Apartment house?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How many apartments, roughly speaking?
Mrs. RICH. I could not say how many. The standard apartment building
for Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, at this point let us do this: You have handed
us the card that you referred to in your testimony previously. We have
now had a Xerox copy made of it. I am handing you back the original.
For the purpose of identification, I am marking the Xerox copy, front
and back, as follows, to wit: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit
No. 3, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” and I am signing my name below
that. And on the reverse side of it, which appears on another Xerox
page, I am marking for the purpose of identification the following:
“Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 3-A, Deposition of Nancy
Perrin Rich,” under which I have signed my name. And I ask you, please,
to sign both documents below my name so that the record will show that
we have been speaking of the same document.
Mrs. RICH. Note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under
Mr. Hubert’s name on Exhibit No. 3. Will you note for the record that I
signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert’s name on Exhibit No. 3-A.
(The documents referred to were marked Nancy Perrin Rich Exhibits Nos.
3 and 3-A for identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, a moment ago you were testifying concerning an
apartment house at which you and your husband met a colonel and another
man by the name of Dave C., I think you said.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; that is an initial—C. Dave took us there.
Mr. HUBERT. I am going to mark that document for the purpose of
identification “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 4,
Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which I am signing my name, and
I ask you to sign your name on it, if you please.
Mrs. RICH. I didn’t mean for this to be an exhibit. Will you note for
the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert’s name
on Exhibit No. 4. Also note for the record the writing I am doing after
signing is merely designating what the lines mean.
(The document referred to was marked Nancy Perrin Rich Exhibit No. 4
for identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Am I correct in stating that prior to the writing you
have just put on the document, Exhibit No. 4, there were merely lines
which indicated a street and an apartment and a little path, showing
a garden. And that since the document has been identified, you have
written in all that appears in handwriting?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember on what floor this apartment was that you
visited?
Mrs. RICH. I believe the first.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether it was to the left or the right as
you went in?
Mrs. RICH. There was no question of left or right as such. It was—you
just walked in. There was no hallway to indicate left or right, if that
is what you are referring to.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this apartment actually opened on the path?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. How many rooms did it have?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t recall whether it was a one or two bedroom.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us any other description of the apartment
building, first of all?
Mrs. RICH. The apartment itself wasn’t too well furnished.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a brick apartment?
Mrs. RICH. I believe it was. Either brick or stucco.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the color of it?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t. But I believe it had colored doors. Now, I could be
mistaken.
Mr. HUBERT. And the apartment itself was one or two bedrooms, and I
think you say it was not well furnished. Do you recall anything about
the interior of the apartment that would be significant?
Mrs. RICH. Let me clarify that. When I say not well furnished, I should
have said sparsely furnished. It looked like an unfurnished apartment
that he had just thrown some furniture into and not too much of it. I
believe I remember he said something about he just moved in; hadn’t
finished it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it have lamps in it?
Mrs. RICH. I believe it did. I think it had one lamp on the table.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anything about the furniture that was there?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was, I believe you call it Danish modern.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it upholstered?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t recall. It was typical cheap apartment furniture. I
believe it had plastic upholstery.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you went there at night.
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time?
Mrs. RICH. It was after dark. Probably 9 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall how long it took you to drive from where you
were living to this place?
Mrs. RICH. No; I do not.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get there?
Mrs. RICH. In Dave’s car. Now, again, I said four people present.
I should have counted—he had a girl with him. She wasn’t in it or
anything, just some girl he had along for the evening. She was never
part of it. In fact, I think she stayed in the car.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in the place?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably half an hour, 45 minutes, an hour at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the general discussion?
Mrs. RICH. Feeling each other out. I just kind of sat there and
listened. The general gist of it was we were going to obtain a boat,
the colonel could obtain various things, and nothing specific was
mentioned on what the various things were at that time. And we were
going to go and pick up—they were deciding where to pick them up—pick
up Cuban refugees, and bring them over to the main coast, meaning
Miami, which, quite frankly, I adhered to because at that time, as
I say, Castro is or was what we suppose him to be today, and quite
frankly I had seen underprivileged countries and at that time thought
it was a good idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the sum of $10,000 mentioned at that meeting?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Who mentioned it?
Mrs. RICH. The colonel. And it seemed awfully exorbitant for something
like this. I smelled a fish, to quote a maxim.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you thought that there was too much money involved
for this sort of operation?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t express that view, of course?
Mrs. RICH. No; I didn’t say anything. I just kept quiet.
Mr. HUBERT. How were matters left at the end of that meeting?
Mrs. RICH. That there were more people involved, and that we were to
attend a meeting at some later date, of which we would be advised.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you advised?
Mrs. RICH. We were.
Mr. HUBERT. Did another meeting take place?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; it did.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the first?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably 5 or 6 days, give or take a day or 2.
Mr. HUBERT. At the same place?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it at night?
Mrs. RICH. It was.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get there then?
Mrs. RICH. We went in our own car, but with Dave with us. At that time,
Dave and my husband and I were in our car.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Tell us what happened.
Mrs. RICH. Well, we got there and at that time there was the colonel
and another middle-aged woman, kind of a real old granite face I would
describe her, steel-gray hair. Looked rather mannish. And there was a
rather——
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know her name?
Mrs. RICH. No; I was introduced. Names were mentioned around. I don’t
recall it. And then there was another rather pugnacious-looking fellow,
who looked at though he might have been an ex-prizefighter.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you introduced to him?
Mrs. RICH. I was introduced to everyone.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else was there?
Mrs. RICH. The colonel, the woman, and the prizefighter type, a couple
of other men that just kind of sat off in the corner. One of them
looked rather dark, like he might have been Cuban or Latin American,
and Dave, my husband, and myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened at that meeting.
Mrs. RICH. Well, apparently from what I could discern, they had some
kind of a hitch in their plans. And at that time I point blank spoke
up and said, “Well, suppose we discuss the plans in full before
we”—meaning my husband and myself—“get into this. I would like to know
what we are getting into. And at this point you know by now I certainly
have a say in this matter.” Then it came out—boom—quite blank. We were
going to bring Cuban refugees out—but we were going to run military
supplies and Enfield rifles in.
Mr. HUBERT. Who made that statement?
Mrs. RICH. I believe it was the Latin-looking fellow that first made
the statement. But the colonel clarified it. The colonel seemed to be
the head of it and seemed to do all the talking.
Mr. HUBERT. He was in uniform?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe what the colonel looked like?
Mrs. RICH. Vaguely. I would say approximately 45 to 50, perhaps a
little younger. He was kind of bald, and that may have made him look
older. As I recall, a rather slightly built man—and I would not swear
to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any other characteristics?
Mrs. RICH. Not that I can recall, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he in summer uniform?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Short sleeves?
Mrs. RICH. If my memory serves me; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you whom he was representing in the matter?
Mrs. RICH. Not exactly. That fact never did come clear to me. A group
of people.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he indicate in anyway that he was acting
officially, in his official capacity?
Mrs. RICH. No; he was not acting officially.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mrs. RICH. Because of certain statements that were made—statements
such as that the guns would have to come in via Mexico, meaning the
Enfield rifles. Statements like “We have been taking stuff off of the
base for the last 3 months getting prepared for this”—meaning military
equipment, I suppose small arms, or explosives, et cetera, as I
understood it.
Mr. HUBERT. He was also in uniform on the first occasion?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The same type of uniform?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you never saw him out of uniform? All of the times
you saw him he was in uniform?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Summer uniform?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So at that meeting it came out that the project had two
purposes. One was to bring arms in, and the other was to take refuges
out.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; to make money both ways. Then it became crystal clear
why so much money was to be paid for the pilot of the boat.
Mr. HUBERT. And how was that meeting left?
Mrs. RICH. Well, at that time when he said that, my first thought
was “Nancy, get out of here, this is no good, this stinks.” I have
no qualms about making money, but not when it is against the Federal
Government but let’s play along and see what happens. I said, “All
right, we will go. But you can take the $10,000 and keep it. I want
$25,000 or we don’t move.” It was left that the bigwigs would decide
among themselves. During this meeting I had the shock of my life.
Apparently they were having some hitch in money arriving. No one
actually said that that was what it was. But this is what I presumed it
to be. I am sitting there. A knock comes on the door and who walks in
but my little friend Jack Ruby. And you could have knocked me over with
a feather.
Mr. HUBERT. That was at the second meeting?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what facts occurred to give you the impression that
there was a hitch with respect to money?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, just that they were talking about, well, first of
all when I say we—a group of people were supposed to go to Mexico
to make the arrangement for rifles but “Well, no, you can’t leave
tomorrow”—they dropped it. And just evasive statements that led me to
believe that perhaps they were lacking in funds.
And then Ruby comes in, and everybody looks like this, you know, a big
smile—like here comes the Saviour, or something. And he took one look
at me, I took one look at him, and we glared, we never spoke a word.
I don’t know if you have ever met the man. But he has this nervous
air about him. And he seemed overly nervous that night. He bustled on
in. The colonel rushed out into the kitchen or bedroom, I am not sure
which. Ruby had—and he always did carry a gun—and I noticed a rather
extensive bulge in his—about where his breast pocket would be. But at
that time I thought it was a shoulder holster, which he was in the
habit of carrying.
Mr. HUBERT. He was in the habit of carrying?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. Either a shoulder holster or a gun stuck in his pocket.
I always had a gun behind the bar. That is normal.
Mr. HUBERT. You had seen it at his shoulder?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; which was normal—because he made the bank deposit. I
made the bank deposit a couple of times for him and carried a gun when
I made it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he show any signs of recognition of you?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he glared at me and I glared back, as much as to say to
each other what the heck are you doing here.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you told the colonel and Dave what your name was prior
to that?
Mrs. RICH. At that time we—I think it will be obvious to you gentlemen
the reason—we were going under Jack Starr and Nancy Starr.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean that is the name that Ruby knew you under?
Mrs. RICH. No. Jack Ruby knew me as Nancy Perrin.
Mr. HUBERT. And he knew your husband was Robert Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. But like I say for obvious reasons we used the name
Jack and Nancy Starr.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you told the colonel and Dave that your
name——
Mrs. RICH. No; Dave knew our real name.