Mrs. RICH. The colonel and everyone else involved, with the exception
of Ruby and Dave.
Mr. HUBERT. They knew you as Nancy Starr?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. Also let me state that my husbands’ nom de plume as a
writer was Jack Starr. I have also published under Nancy Starr.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened?
Mrs. RICH. Well, they went in and came out and the bulge was gone,
and everybody was really happy, and all of a sudden they seemed to be
happy. So it was my impression Ruby brought money in.
Mr. HUBERT. They walked out of the apartment?
Mrs. RICH. Ruby left. He didn’t stay. He wasn’t there for more than 15
minutes at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. You say all of a sudden the bulge was gone?
Mrs. RICH. The bulge was gone from Ruby when he left.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he leave the room?
Mrs. RICH. He left the apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean from the time he came in until he left.
Mrs. RICH. He came in. To everyone else except my husband and I he
said, “Hi.” He and the colonel rushed into—I forget whether it was the
kitchen or the bedroom. They were in there about 10 minutes. I heard
some rather loud undistinguishable words. They closed the door. When
they came out everybody looked relieved. And Ruby just walked out.
Mr. HUBERT. And said nothing to you?
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You say the money was forthcoming?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get it?
Mrs. RICH. No; we didn’t. First they had to pay for this
pugnacious-looking fellow and one of the Latins who were going down to
Mexico to make arrangements and pay for the guns. All of a sudden just
before Ruby come in they couldn’t go, and right after Ruby left they
were on the plane the next morning, so to speak.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Jack Ruby hand any money to anybody?
Mrs. RICH. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you see any money handed to anyone else.
Mrs. RICH. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. So the way it was left then, these people, the others, were
going to go to Mexico——
Mrs. RICH. Actually they were going to leave not the day following, but
the day after that—2 days later they were going to leave for Mexico. I
just assumed that that was money that Ruby brought in. Because before
that they could not go, they did not have the finances, and after he
left they did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they say they did not have the finances, or was it your
assumption that they did not?
Mrs. RICH. When someone is stalling around, and not setting a concrete
date and saying, “Well, we have to wait” and that it will get here
soon, and statements like that that I hear in conversation, then all of
a sudden in comes a man with a bulge and hands it to the colonel in the
back room, so to speak, and all of a sudden, boom, the reservations
are made then and there, I think that is a pretty good assumption.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, those are the facts that you observed upon
which you base the assumptions that you have made.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. And the big sigh of relief, so to speak,
afterwards.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you then ask about your portion of the money?
Mrs. RICH. At that time it was to be decided, as I say, among the
bigwigs. I had asked for $25,000.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before Ruby came in?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; in fact it was just a few minutes before he knocked on
the door. They decided they did not know, and they were going to have
a meeting—there were some other people involved higher up than they
were. They would have to talk it over with them. At that time I had it
in my mind I would go ahead and play ball—and I was stalling when I
asked for the $25,000—that I would notify the Federal authorities. As I
say, bringing the refugees out is one thing. Running in guns is another
thing, for a Communist country which at that time it was.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that meeting last?
Mrs. RICH. They were still going when we left. And we were there about
2½ hours.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you and your husband?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Dave remained behind?
Mrs. RICH. He remained. Well, actually at that point business was over,
and it just became a party. Neither my husband nor I drink, so we left.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you leave it with them? Who was going to make the
next move?
Mrs. RICH. We were to be notified as to the time and place of the next
meeting and as to the decision on upping the ante, so to speak.
Mr. HUBERT. They did not reject your offer of $25,000?
Mrs. RICH. It was to be discussed.
Mr. HUBERT. $10,000 was all right.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; $10,000 was offered.
Mr. HUBERT. $25,000, which was your counter offer, had to be discussed.
Mrs. RICH. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And they told you they would discuss that and let you know.
Mrs. RICH. With some other people that were higher up.
Mr. HUBERT. They told you they were higher up?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; the colonel said that they were higher up. I do not
know the exact words.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened then?
Mrs. RICH. I think his exact words were something like “I will discuss
it with my bosses.”
Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?
Mrs. RICH. Well, about 3 or 4 days later we were told there was going
to be another meeting to attend. Dave came over and told us. And we
went. And——
Mr. HUBERT. What happened at that meeting? First of all, who was there?
How did you go?
Mrs. RICH. My husband and I.
Mr. HUBERT. You went in your car?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a car did you have?
Mrs. RICH. At that time I believe we had a 1956 blue and white Ford, if
I am not mistaken.
Mr. HUBERT. What license plate?
Mrs. RICH. Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the name of Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. So you went with your husband. This was the
third visit. Same place?
Mrs. RICH. Same place.
Mr. HUBERT. Same apartment?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. No change in the furniture or decorations or anything of
that sort?
Mrs. RICH. Not that I recall. I did not really notice.
Mr. HUBERT. And this third meeting was about 4 or 5 days after the
first?
Mrs. RICH. Three or four; after the second.
Mr. HUBERT. How were you notified to come to the first meeting?
Mrs. RICH. To come to the first meeting?
Mr. HUBERT. No; the third.
Mrs. RICH. Dave.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Dave was the man who was in between, as it
were.
Mrs. RICH. Well, Dave was in it. It was only because he was our friend.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he to get anything out of it?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t know; never did.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t you discuss that with him?
Mrs. RICH. In that sort of business, you don’t discuss things,
apparently.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you did.
Mrs. RICH. Well, not to that point. It wouldn’t have done me any good.
I would have just gotten a “none of your business” answer.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know that to be a fact, did you?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mrs. RICH. Well, call it intuition. I don’t know. I just wouldn’t have
gotten an answer.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you think that Dave expected some money?
Mrs. RICH. I suppose so. I never did get his position quite clear in my
mind.
Mr. HUBERT. He was the one that had brought you into the picture in the
first place.
Mrs. RICH. Yes. It seemed to me like a front man for them, or
something, or a recruiter almost.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were concerned about the question of money
involved in this thing, because as you said you let them know that you
would have a say about this.
Mrs. RICH. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. But you did not discuss with Dave whether he was to be paid
by you or the other side, as it were.
Mrs. RICH. Oh, no; he wasn’t to be paid by us. He brought us into the
group, so to speak. The only thing I could make him out to be is a
recruiter. Not to be paid by us. Nothing was ever mentioned of Dave
going on any of these trips.
Mr. HUBERT. But he was not to get a fee for finding you.
Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. I really don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not raise the point with him.
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did your husband, to your knowledge.
Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. I didn’t ask him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it concern you that Dave might want some of the money
that you were going to get?
Mrs. RICH. Not particularly, because at that time I had already made up
my mind to go to the authorities with it.
Mr. HUBERT. You had made up your mind when?
Mrs. RICH. After the second meeting, I found out they were going to
run rifles in, and military supplies and things that apparently—again
apparently were being pilfered from a base somewhere.
Mr. HUBERT. You made up your mind at the end really of the second
meeting.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; and then they said to run rifles and stolen military
supplies in—that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell your husband so?
Mrs. RICH. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell Dave so?
Mrs. RICH. I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the authorities?
Mrs. RICH. I never had the chance.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us why?
Mrs. RICH. Well, we went back to that third meeting and apparently by
mutual consent we got out of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened at the third meeting, including who
was there.
Mrs. RICH. Well, who was there—there was the colonel, again this
pugnacious-looking fellow who supposedly had gone to Mexico and been
back; the Latin-looking fellow and the other one with him who might
have been Latin wasn’t there—this woman was there. And another man I
had not seen before, but whose face rang a bell. And I could not put a
name to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been able to do so?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I have.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was it?
Mrs. RICH. Again, unless I am awfully mistaken, and I have yet to be
able to find a picture of this man, but I recall seeing a picture and I
know why I had associated him—of his father.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose father?
Mrs. RICH. This particular man. Now, again, what I am about to say is
not fact. It is something that I have never quite been able to get
clear in my mind and never will, until I can find a picture. Unless I
am very mistaken, the man at that third meeting was Vito Genovese’s son.
Mr. HUBERT. He was not introduced as such?
Mrs. RICH. He was introduced as Tony. That was all.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Vito Genovese?
Mrs. RICH. No; I never did.
Mr. HUBERT. But you knew his picture.
Mrs. RICH. I had seen his picture.
Mr. HUBERT. You thought there was a resemblance between that picture
and this man?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. For a week this bothered me. And all of a sudden it
came crystal clear.
Mr. HUBERT. What became clear?
Mrs. RICH. That unless I was way off base, that is who it was. And I do
know that a lot of people——
Mr. HUBERT. It was a week after the third meeting?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. I had been trying to put a name to that face.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, what else happened at the third meeting?
Mrs. RICH. Well, No. 1, the raise of ante was turned down. The colonel
asked us if we would accept $15,000. My husband started to say
something. I hushed him up and said “No.” I said, “I don’t know. I
want some time to think about it.” So then the phone rang, and quite a
lengthy conversation took place in the other room. I could not swear to
who was on the other end of the phone, I have a pretty good idea. And
the colonel came back out and said, “I don’t know. We are going to call
this off for a while anyway. There has just been a change of plans. We
are going to have to postpone this for 3 or 4 months. There will be one
more meeting.” And at that time I stood up and I said, “Look, quite
frankly I don’t believe we want any part of this at all.” All I wanted
to do then and there was to get the devil out of there. I quite frankly
was scared. So I grabbed my old man and we cleared out.
Mr. HUBERT. But before clearing out, you told them you wanted no part
of it.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; that was after the colonel had said there was going to
be a 3- or 4-month delay and change of plans, and all this, that and
the other. I did not quite figure that maybe things were kosher.
Mr. HUBERT. How did they accept your suggestion that you would bail out?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. We left. I wasn’t going to wait around to find
out.
Mr. HUBERT. So you never did report it to the authorities.
Mrs. RICH. No; I never did.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mrs. RICH. Well, my husband got picked up in Dallas, and I will never
know if this was true—he said it wasn’t—the policeman said it was. My
husband had a .45. It was not registered.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean a pistol?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; a service automatic. He had no right carrying it.
He had it in the car. At that time he had a little old Nash Rambler
station wagon of his own. This cop says when he picked my husband up
my husband was standing in a little clearing beside the road there on
the way out to Rayburn, brandishing a gun around saying he was going
to kill somebody. He come to find out if it was a cop he was going to
kill. I will never know to this day whether this was true or not.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the third meeting did this happen?
Mrs. RICH. That happened between the second and third meeting, if my
time elements are right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was your husband arrested?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was. That is when this Sy Victorson I mentioned
earlier in my testimony came in. He was an attorney. Perhaps not too
honest in some of the things he does, but a good attorney. And he got
my husband out of it. I had to pay some money. I will never know to
this day whether it was true. I can’t believe it.
Mr. HUBERT. And that event took place between the second and third
meeting, is that right?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the third meeting did you leave Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, possibly 2 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was the reason for leaving Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. The minute I put a name to that face I said to Bob, “We are
getting out of here, and we are getting out fast, right now.” That
was about 5 o’clock at night. At 8 o’clock we was packed in a U-Haul
trailer and out.
Mr. HUBERT. But you did not put the name to the face at the third
meeting.
Mrs. RICH. No; not until about a week later.
Mr. HUBERT. You then drove to New Orleans?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. But by then everything had fallen into place, because
Ruby had had various characters visit him, both from New York, Chicago,
even from up in Minneapolis.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mrs. RICH. I was introduced to some of them. I was asked to go out with
some of them.
(At this point, a short recess was taken.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think we left off at the place where you were saying
that subsequent to the third meeting Ruby was visited by certain people
whose names I do not think you mentioned.
Mrs. RICH. No; this was prior. This is while I worked for Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. I see.
Mrs. RICH. I saw them come and go.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby any more after the third meeting?
Mrs. RICH. I did not. I did not see him in fact at the third meeting.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean after the second.
Mrs. RICH. Oh, perhaps on the street.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not converse with him about this matter at all?
Mrs. RICH. I did not. I wanted no truck with the man.