Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if we can get some first names.
Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember what House’s first name was, but it was
Paul Rayburn, and Detective—something House—they were partners. They
worked as a team, juvenile. And the rest were just faces and uniforms.
Mr. HUBERT. How would you know them?
Mrs. RICH. At that time, I knew them.
Mr. HUBERT. You knew them to be police?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they pay?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, no; of course not.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that an order, too, from Mr. Ruby?
Mrs. RICH. That was. Unless they came in in the evening with their
wives. Then, of course, they paid. But then again, they didn’t have
hard liquor, either, at that time. This is when they came in, by
themselves, I was to go get the private stock, as he called it, special
stock. They were served whatever they wanted on the house.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that widespread?
Mrs. RICH. I am not sure I understand what you mean by widespread.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you have mentioned two names, and then said there
were others whose names you don’t remember.
Mrs. RICH. Well, the only reason I remember House and Rayburn is
because they were personal friends of mine.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, how many others do you suppose you served?
Mrs. RICH. I couldn’t estimate. I couldn’t give you a true and accurate
figure. Anyone that came in from the police department. Including
certain attorneys in town. One attorney I particularly remember was a
fellow named Sy Victorson, who subsequently became my attorney, and a
personal friend.
Mr. HUBERT. And what?
Mrs. RICH. And a personal friend.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your salary there?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember. $50, $60 a week, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any tips?
Mrs. RICH. Sometimes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man by the name of Andy Armstrong or
Andrew Armstrong?
Mrs. RICH. The name Armstrong doesn’t ring a bell. I guess, if my
memory serves me correctly—wasn’t the colored man that cleaned up
around there, Andy?
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the way you remember him?
Mrs. RICH. I wouldn’t swear to it. I do know we had a colored man
cleaning up, but I would be darned if I remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. You think it may have been Andy?
Mrs. RICH. I can’t remember. I wouldn’t even dare venture a guess. In
all honesty, I would have to say I can’t really put a face to the name.
Mr. HUBERT. But there was a colored man there?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; there was a colored man that cleaned up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay on in the afternoon and at night?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. What were your hours?
Mrs. RICH. I believe I would come in around 3, 4, 5 o’clock, I think,
sometimes I would come in at 6, or 7; I would work straight through to
midnight.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this cleanup man present when you came in?
Mrs. RICH. If I came in the afternoon, yes, the colored man was there.
As I say, in all honesty, I could not dare venture a name on that.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t remember any colored man who was there
helping at the bar in the night hours?
Mrs. RICH. You don’t notice them. I mean they are there. If you have
been a bartender, you would know what I mean. You don’t notice people
like that. They are taken for granted they are there, you have a bar
helper. Heck, I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what you are saying is that you do not remember that
there was any colored man who assisted with the bar at night.
Mrs. RICH. I will be darned if I can even put a face to whoever did
bring the bottles and stuff out to me, the cases.
Mr. HUBERT. Your answer to my question, then, is that you do not
remember that there was a colored man other than the cleaner that you
mentioned.
Mrs. RICH. Well, he did everything. I do remember he lugged beer cases
out for me. I think if my memory is right—I think he stacked my cooler
for me.
Mr. HUBERT. Would he leave before you?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t really remember. As I say, these people you take for
granted, you don’t pay any attention to them. I never gave it a second
thought. I had one thing on my mind, and it went against my grain. I
was doing something I knew to be illegal, and I knew I needed the job.
Every night I expected a raid. That was my prime concern.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?
Mrs. RICH. Ralph Lee?
Mr. HUBERT. No; Ralph Paul.
Mrs. RICH. If he is the one I am thinking of, he was the manager at
Earl’s Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Earl who?
Mrs. RICH. Earl’s Club. I don’t know what Earl’s last name was. I
forgot. It is a private club in Dallas. But I knew him as Ralph Lee.
Oh, I don’t think it is the same one. Again, I would remember people if
I saw their faces. Names I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a person by the name of Eva Grant?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was she?
Mrs. RICH. Well, she managed Jack’s other club; his sister managed the
Vegas Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet her?
Mrs. RICH. One time.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mrs. RICH. She came in at the club there one time, was introduced as
his sister, and that she managed the Vegas Club, which I had never been
out to.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any difficulty with Ruby?
Mrs. RICH. Except the fact I was about ready to throw a cash register
on his head, no.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that?
Mrs. RICH. I shouldn’t have said that. I said except for the fact that
I was ready one night to throw a cash register on his head, no. I don’t
like to be pushed around.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you suggesting that he did push you around?
Mrs. RICH. I am suggesting he threw me up against the bar and put a
bruise on my arm, and only because Bud King and one of the dancers
there pulled me off, I was going to kill him.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the argument about?
Mrs. RICH. The bar glasses were not clean enough to suit him. And I
wasn’t pushing drinks to the customers fast enough.
Mr. HUBERT. And so he remonstrated with you?
Mrs. RICH. He did.
Mr. HUBERT. And that included pushing you around?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. And I was refused the privilege of bringing
an assault and battery suit against him.
Mr. HUBERT. Who refused you that?
Mrs. RICH. The police department. I went down for information and was
going to Mr. Douglas—I believe he was—he is some attorney—I think he
was—he is with the DA’s office. I don’t remember his position. I can’t
remember his last name. I wanted to file suit against Ruby. And I was
refused. I was told if I did that I would never win it, and get myself
in more trouble than I bargained for.
Mr. HUBERT. That was told to you by whom?
Mrs. RICH. By the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. HUBERT. But what individual of the Dallas Police Department?
Mrs. RICH. Again—and I wish to God I could—I can’t remember his name.
There was a detective, plainclothesman.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that you had spoken to someone in the district
attorney’s office?
Mrs. RICH. No; I said that is who I was going to go to. I wasn’t
advised. I was flatly told not to.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not go to anyone in the district attorney’s
office?
Mrs. RICH. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that put an end to your employment with Ruby?
Mrs. RICH. No; I had already ceased with Ruby the night that that
happened. I walked out, and left him cold.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I mean.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. After this altercation, you no longer worked for him?
Mrs. RICH. I did not. I was just biding my time until I found another
job, which I did find. This was on a Wednesday. I was going to give him
notice and leave him—I wasn’t going to leave him over the weekend, but
I was going to start the other place the following Monday anyway. And
this just hastened it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you report that to your husband?
Mrs. RICH. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. He was employed in Dallas at that time, I think you said.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mrs. RICH. At this time, I don’t recall whether he was working for
Paul Rayburn, Detective Rayburn, at his used car lot, or whether he
was with Al’s Automotive. One of the two places.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a job did he have?
Mrs. RICH. Mechanic. Subsequently my husband went up and Jack Ruby
threw him out of the club. My husband was going to talk to him. And I
found out about it. Ruby had already kicked him out of the club. And
then I disuaded him from going back further. I said, “Forget it, just
let it drop.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other employment in Dallas after this
altercation with Ruby?
Mrs. RICH. Yes, I did. At the—I think it was called just The Chalet.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was it located?
Mrs. RICH. Again I can’t remember. Again it was on the other side of
Dallas. It was outside—in fact, I don’t thing it was right in Dallas
proper. It wasn’t in Dallas proper, I know.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of work did you do there?
Mrs. RICH. This was a dining place. And I was a hostess. And in the
place they had this little booth, and they had a dart game, and you
could throw darts and win prizes, and I also ran that place for them.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was your employer there?
Mrs. RICH. Again, I cannot recall his name.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you there?
Mrs. RICH. Until I left Dallas—probably a month. Then we left to go
back to New Orleans.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you unemployed—that is to say, what period
was there between the time you left Ruby and the time you got this
employment at The Chalet?
Mrs. RICH. Between the time I left Ruby and the time I went to The
Chalet, about 5 or 6 days. And then I quit The Chalet a little before
we left. And, of course, prior to going to Ruby’s I wasn’t employed.
Then there was a period of about a week, week and a-half, while I was
at Ruby’s, all of a sudden he decided he didn’t need a bartender. Then
I am recalled back.
Mr. HUBERT. You left The Chalet about a week before you left Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. Probably a little more than that. Maybe 2, 2½ weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you leave The Chalet?
Mrs. RICH. Well, for one thing he was going to close down for
renovations. And then he said, “no, I am not; I am going to sell out.”
And he decided to close it down anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work for a place called the Theater Lounge?
Mrs. RICH. Barney Weinstein—yes, I did.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mrs. RICH. That was during the time I had left Ruby and then went back
to Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work for the Theater Lounge?
Mrs. RICH. No more than a week or two. I forgot all about working for
Barney. I have to laugh. His brother owned the other stripping place
in town, right next to Ruby, upstairs. And they had this amateur show,
these amateur strippers. Barney was going to promote me as a stripper.
No thanks.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, before we get into any other matter, I want
to go back to the letter that you handed me which was dated October 25,
1963. It is addressed, “To Whom it May Concern:”
It purports to be signed by Oscar Kistle, chief deputy, district
attorney. It is on stationery of the office of the District Attorney of
Sacramento County. I have had a Xerox copy made of it. I have returned
the original to you, is that right?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking the Xerox copy of that document for
identification by writing on the right-hand margin the following words;
to wit: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of
Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which I have signed my name, and in order
that the record may show that there is no misunderstanding about it, I
wonder if you would sign your name as I have mine.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I would. Note for the record that on the left-hand
margin I signed “Nancy E. Perrin Rich.”
Mr. HUBERT. I think the letter that you handed me was in an envelope,
which was plain, other than the fact that it had in the left-hand upper
corner the words “Office of District Attorney, Room 204, Courthouse,
Sacramento 14, California”. I am marking a Xerox copy of the original
of that envelope, which has been returned to you, for identification
by writing on the Xerox copy the following, to wit: “Washington, D.C.,
June 2, 1964, Exhibit 2, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which
I have signed my name, and I ask you to sign yours as you did with
reference to Exhibit No. 1.
Mrs. RICH. Note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under
Mr. Hubert’s signature.
(The documents referred to were marked Nancy E. Perrin Rich Exhibits 1
and 2 for identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, ma’am.
Mrs. RICH. At this time I would also, pertaining to my statement
concerning working for various police organizations, introduce into
this informal hearing, so to speak, another piece of material given
to me by the Oakland Police Department while working on a case for
them, under the name of Julie Anne Cody. Also under this name is a
police record purposely devised by the Oakland Police Department for
obvious purposes, to coincide with this card that I am about to hand
to Mr. Hubert—also, how shall we say it—falsified, made up by the
Oakland Police Department, for obvious purposes. This was to get me
into a particular place—I had to have a police record—all done with the
sanction of the Oakland Police Department. May I also note that on that
card the dates and the names are fictitious, intentionally so. The card
was in reality printed in, I believe, November of 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you want to introduce this card into this
proceeding?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. And I will tell you why. If you note the date on
that, some of my statements—Let’s say that this came into light, and
I didn’t give the explanation of why and what this meant—the dates
would conflict with some of my testimony. And I want this understood
that this was purely done to, shall we say, consummate a case for the
Oakland Police Department. I was not actually in California the dates
on that card.
Mr. HUBERT. When was this card issued to you?
Mrs. RICH. In reality, this card was issued in November of 1963. I was
working on a grand larceny case.
Mr. HUBERT. You want this card back, the original?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, as soon as we have a Xerox copy made of the
card, we will identify it and sign the copies as we have done the other.
Meanwhile, let us pass on to another point. I think you have mentioned
that you saw Ruby at a certain meeting at which your husband was
present and there was a general discussion of guns or Cuban refugees.
Mrs. RICH. Your statement is partially correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what is actually correct?
Mrs. RICH. At the first meeting there were four people present. There
was a colonel, or a light colonel, I forgot which. I also forget
whether he was Air Force or Army. It seems to me he was Army. And it
seems to me he was regular Army. There was my husband, Mr. Perrin,
myself, and a fellow named Dave, and I don’t remember his last name.
Dave C.—I think it was Cole, but I wouldn’t be sure.