Mr. SENATOR. But I am not sure. I’ll tell you, I am looking at the head
because it is sort of baldish.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the people in the foreground in that picture, you
don’t recognize any of them?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, Exhibit 5303-L. Other than Jack Ruby, do you
recognize anybody in there?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5300-A and ask you if you
recognize any of the people in that picture other than Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Kathy Kay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the blonde on Jack Ruby’s right, or left as you
look at the picture?
Mr. SENATOR. This is a cocktail waitress. Her name is Alice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The girl on Jack Ruby’s left, Jack’s left but the right
side of the picture?
Mr. SENATOR. Alice, I don’t remember her last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had Alice worked for Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say on and off for maybe a year and a half or two,
but I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack date Alice?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Alice every solicit up at Jack’s apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. I think she came there once for I think it was a job
interference. I think for some reason, I don’t know what it was because
I didn’t stay, but she was there once. She came there one afternoon. I
don’t know what happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5301-D. Do you recognize any of
the girls in that picture?
Mr. SENATOR. This is Joy Dale on the left and this is Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the right?
Mr. SENATOR. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the right of the picture as you look at the
picture?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes: Little Lynn on the right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am going to do, Mr. Senator, I am going to hand you
a set of photographs, 5306-A and 5306-B. These photographs are pictures
of memoranda that were made at one time or another. Let me ask you to
look at those. First, I will ask you a general question about these
memoranda.
Do you ever recall Jack Ruby having any memoranda pads similar to those
that are shown in those photographs?
Mr. SENATOR. No; with him, everything went on a piece of paper, it
don’t matter what type it was. He would keep his papers and notes,
everything else like he kept his money, all over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep some of his papers and notes at home?
Mr. SENATOR. It could be at the office or at home because he wasn’t
immaculate in where he kept things, things of that nature there. It
would lay here, lay there, lay in the office, wherever it laid. That is
the way he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any memoranda pads such as this?
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I can’t say yes or no, but not to my
knowledge that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to take messages for him at home?
Mr. SENATOR. Very seldom if the phone rang and all I would do is
write it on whatever piece of paper it might be. No particular paper,
sometimes even on a newspaper, whatever it was, whatever is close by.
I have seen those go on pieces of paper this big even, you know. It is
just no particular type piece of paper with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Nancy Barker might have been?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it could have been maybe somebody calling for a job. I
don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Joyce Harvey was?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Linda Bumwalt was?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Emma Ship?
Mr. SENATOR. No; the only thing possibly could happen, I may know
somebody by face maybe but not by name. This could be. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jean Bordon?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Archie Esquavill? Did you ever hear of him?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of a person named T. E. Smith?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am going to hand you a series of photographs which
are marked Exhibits 5305-A to 5305-S. These are photographs of a
notebook which had a cover which said “Aladdin,” and I ask you first of
all if you have ever seen this Aladdin notebook?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I have. I mean, his things that he kept in
his pocket, I assume that is it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look through those photographs and look through
all of them, and I am going to ask you a general question whether you
recognize that notebook?
Mr. SENATOR. So far this stuff I have never seen, though I do know he
had books, you know, notebooks, but I have never seen the insides of
them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to read what is on those pages?
Mr. SENATOR. Some yes and some no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you the question again: Do you ever recall
having seen this particular notebook?
Mr. SENATOR. I know he had a book. Now, I don’t know about the cover,
but I know he had a book. As a matter of fact, I think he had two or
three of them. But I am not sure of the cover part of it, but I do know
that he had a notebook of some sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-B, which purports to
be a photograph of a page of that notebook. Can you read the names on
there?
Mr. SENATOR. Leonard, isn’t that right? That is Leonard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I just want to know if you have difficulty reading them.
Mr. SENATOR. Frank Barber.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do have some difficulty reading the names.
Mr. SENATOR. Frank Bourber or Barber.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me read the names to you and ask you if you recognize
any of them.
Mr. HUBERT. May I make this suggestion?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. SENATOR. I know some of the names on there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Jack Ruby’s handwriting?
Mr. SENATOR. It probably could be Jack’s, I guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But would you recognize Jack’s handwriting?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think, offhand, I would, but I assume these
probably are Jack’s handwritings, I guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, did you know Frank Barber?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack speak or did you know Milt Jaffe?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any friend Jack had named Barney?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Pauline?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Pauline Hall?
Mr. SENATOR. Now, you may ask me some names. I may know the face but I
may not recognize the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any people that worked at the Vegas Club?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, Pauline Hall; yes, I do. I am glad you mentioned that.
Pauline worked at times at the Vegas Club, if that is her last name.
I am not sure. Now, I know her first name was Pauline, so it might be
Pauline Hall, if that is her last name, but she worked at the Vegas
Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say she worked there at times?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; not steady. I wouldn’t say she worked there steady.
There were times I walked in there with Jack at night on a weekend I
have seen her working, and then there are other times I haven’t seen
her working.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Billy Brook?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bobbie Patterson?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of that name, but I can’t think who
it is. I think I have heard of that name. I think I have heard of that
name Bobbie Patterson, but I can’t refresh my mind. It seems I have
heard that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Howard Foster?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sammy Tucker?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Would it be easier, you know, what you want to do,
would it be easier if I could pick up the ones I knew?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you could read them. Could you go through there and
pick out the ones you know, and indicate to me if there are any on
there you can’t read.
Mr. SENATOR. What is this? Is this Goody?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Grady to me, but I am not sure.
Mr. SENATOR. Fred Fillman, I don’t know who he is. You want me to sound
out the names, don’t you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just comment on the ones you recognize.
Mr. SENATOR. What does this say? It looks like Rita.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Ruth Shay.
Mr. HUBERT. You had better make reference to the document you are
talking about. Let the record show the comments of the witness are with
reference to Exhibit 5305-F.
Mr. SENATOR. Here is one that says Pauline. That may be Pauline Hall, I
don’t know. I have heard that name. I don’t know who she is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What name are you talking about?
Mr. SENATOR. Tex DeLacy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Take a look at 5305-G and tell me if you recognize the
name R. T. Brown on there.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you 5305-H.
Mr. SENATOR. There is no other names on there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. 5305-H, do you recognize any of the names
on there?
Mr. SENATOR. What is that, Joseph Rossi?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him. The rest are just figurations here,
numbers or moneys.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Take a look at 5305-I. There is the name Tom Palmer.
Mr. SENATOR. Tom Palmer, I think he is the booking agent in Dallas. In
other words, he books. Not the booking agent. I have got to find out
how to classify him now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what he does.
Mr. SENATOR. He is with, I think he is with AGVA.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is the American Guild of Variety Artists?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I believe he has an office in Dallas. Let me see how
he is classified. How do you classify him? I guess he has something to
do with the acts, you know, the working hours, and the pay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of the entertainers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met Tom Palmer?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen him in the Carousel, or occasionally on the
street, or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many different occasions would you say you have
met him?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have seen him maybe a dozen times or so, maybe more.
I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you first meet him through Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because when he came up there, he always went to
Jack, you know. I mean, he had no occasion to come to me or anything of
that nature, but he always came to Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any particular dealings Jack had with him
in the few weeks before Oswald was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5305-J, and I will ask you if you
recognize any of the names on there.
Mr. SENATOR. What is this, Grace Wilkins, the first one? Is that what
that says? I don’t know her, but is that what it says?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Grace Wilkins; yes. Do you recognize that
name?
Mr. SENATOR. No. And Woodruff, I don’t know who that is. But, mind you,
I want you to bear in mind I may know these people and don’t know the
names. I may know them if I see their face.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. J. B. Gruber, I don’t know who he is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you Exhibit 5305-K and ask you if you
recognize any of the names on there.
Mr. SENATOR. KLIF radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. KLIF?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I have heard of the name Harrigan. I don’t know if
Harrigan is KLIF, I am not sure. It says diskjockey. I knew he was
something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I have ever met him, but I have heard of
that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you about him?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how I heard of it. Very possibly he may have,
but I have heard the name. I know I have heard the name before. I don’t
know who this other is. I believe it says Chuck Dunnaway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I am not familiar with these. I am not familiar with
these.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Alex Gruber?
Mr. SENATOR. No. As I say, I may know him by face, but I am not
familiar with the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-M and ask you if you
recognize the names on there. I might state for the record that 5305-L
is a duplicate of 5305-K, and that is why I didn’t hand it to the
witness.
Mr. SENATOR. Here it says Nick Turman. The reason I say that, I happen
to know somebody by the name of Buddy Turman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Buddy Turman?
Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman, I believe, is out on the West Coast. He used
to be the light heavyweight or heavyweight champion of Texas, a real
fine fellow. That is why I say I don’t know Nick.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was he a friend of Jack’s?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he was of Jack’s sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet Turman through Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Through Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I met Turman through Jack. No, I met him
some other place. I met him some other place. I can’t think where I met
him, but I didn’t meet him through Jack, but I have seen him at Jack’s
place. As a matter of fact, he has helped Jack every now and then. This
Nick Turman, I don’t know if this is related to him or what it is. I am
not familiar with the name Nick. You have got a Norma here, and I know
a name Norma, and I can’t place it; I wonder if this is somebody who
ever worked for him, Norma.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Buddy Turman have any particular dealings, that you
know of, with Jack Ruby in the last month or so before——
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, Buddy has been gone quite a while. He went to the West
Coast. As a matter of fact, the last time I saw Buddy he said he was
going to the West Coast to train, because from there—now I don’t know
if it ever materialized—from there he was going to England to fight. I
can’t think of that heavyweight fighter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bruce Wilcox?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Name a couple more. This one fighter didn’t fight too
long ago. You may have seen him on TV. He is the type that fights very
awkward, and sort of a slap, like. Do you remember who that is?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No, I don’t. Now, did Jack Ruby have an interest in
prizefighting?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I would say that he liked the fights. He liked to
watch them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he never expressed any particular interest to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No, but he liked to watch the fights.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you about any interest he had in the
fight game when he was a younger man?
Mr. SENATOR. I know that he used to carry Barney Ross’ bag around. How
young he was or what age, in Chicago, I don’t remember. But I know it
was as a youngster.
I assume this first name, Tammi, is Tammi True, and I assume the other
one is Little Lynn; right? These are only first names. This says Tammi,
so I assume that must be Tammi True, and Lynn, that might be Little
Lynn.
Wait; I haven’t gone through the rest. There is a Dick Lenard there,
and I think this man is a booking agency. I think he is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For entertainers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, if it is the same Dick Lenard. I don’t know the rest
of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5305-N,
and ask you to look at the names on there and tell us if you recognize
any of them.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is a Murray Wynn, who owns, I assume, because it
says The Smoker’s Lounge, and I know the place, but I never knew his
last name. I assume it is the right one. He owns a tobacco and pipe
store.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What dealings did Jack have with him?
Mr. SENATOR. None that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack didn’t smoke, did he?
Mr. SENATOR. No. He probably just met him like he meets a lot of
people, I assume. I have heard of this Grant Koch. I have heard of the
name, but I don’t know who he is. It is a name I remember hearing at
one time or another; and I don’t know who this Kierney Aikens is. I
don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A-i-k-e-n-s?
Mr. SENATOR. A-i-k-e-n. I don’t who he is. What does this say here?
This is pretty hard to read. Do you see this one right here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Donald Wiley. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will read you the other names on here. Pauline Foch.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Etheridge?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ray Hawkins?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sue Blake?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not going to hand you the next exhibit, which is
5305-O, because there are no names written on there of any persons. And
I am not going to hand you Exhibit 5305-P. I will take that back. I
will hand you that. There is a name “Bishop” written there. Does that
name mean anything to you?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of the name, but I don’t know who it
is. I don’t know what that is. I believe I have somewheres heard of
that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to read to you from Exhibit 5305-Q, and
tell me if you recognize any of these names. Monte?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Shore?
Mr. SENATOR. Mike Shore? Is there an address or something that goes
with it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dr. Uhlevitch?
Mr. SENATOR. Does it say what he is?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No.
Mr. SENATOR. Is he local, Dallas?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I presume so.
Mr. SENATOR. What is the exchange?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn’t give an exchange, just the name.
Mr. SENATOR. Uhlevitch?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Stanley Kaufman?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he is a lawyer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never met him, but I know who he is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Jack about him or has Jack talked to
you about him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he is, I believe, a civil attorney, and I know that
Jack has always called him for conferences of some nature or another,
whatever it may be, but I wasn’t——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a personal friend of Jack’s?
Mr. SENATOR. I assume that he has known Jack for some time. Now, how
personal, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea whether Jack was as close to Kaufman
as you were to Jim Martin, for example?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, but I know that—as a matter of fact, even
now during the trial, trying to get the new trial now, I know that they
keep in contact with Kaufman. So I don’t know what you want to actually
call close, you know. I can’t tell you what close is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John Hilt?
Mr. SENATOR. I never heard of that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Shepard?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know that, either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Abe Klinman?
Mr. SENATOR. Abe Klinman is a CPA. I know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he do work for Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. He has done some work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jerry Wilson?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Riaf?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Palmer’s name is on here, but you have talked about
that.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ed Pullman?
Mr. SENATOR. Ed Pullman; yes. Ed Pullman; his wife had worked for Jack
for a short spell as a cocktail waitress. She is an elderly woman. Ed
Pullman, he is a man who thinks up gadgets, you know. I don’t know how
to describe it. He is an idea man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A promoter?
Mr. SENATOR. Things that he makes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. An inventor?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; in that classification.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack have any business dealings with Ed Pullman?
Mr. SENATOR. The only thing is—no; no business dealings. The only thing
is he had a show once, Ed Pullman, like a market show—you know what I
mean, sort of an exhibit like where people come to look—exhibits.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of things did he exhibit?
Mr. SENATOR. Things that he had made, to show and see what he could do
with them. In other words, he wasn’t manufacturing them, but he had
already made these things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he exhibiting these items?
Mr. SENATOR. At a place called Market Hall.