Mr. GRIFFIN. Steel?
Mr. SENATOR. A solid steel wall. At one end was a door, but that was
solid, too. In other words, when you looked at the door you might as
well say it was part of the wall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was the cell that Jack was kept in?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this was no cell. I don’t know what cell he was in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack stay in there?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He was brought in?
Mr. SENATOR. This is a hallway. This was a narrow hallway. Apparently
they didn’t let you know the cell he was in. I never saw him in a cell.
I have never seen any cells. They’d bring him down in, and, of course,
I can’t see which way they are coming through. All I can say is they
are coming this way when I walk in, and this is this little hall, this
little hallway. I can’t see every bit of him, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were these always the conditions under which you
talked to Jack, even before you left Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. That is the only way I have ever seen him, from beginning
to end. That is the only way I could ever see him. In other words,
there was no time that I could even touch him to shake his hand;
nothing, because there was nothing but a solid iron or steel, or
whatever it was, wall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that, of course, you noticed the most
marked change in him when you returned to Dallas, and I take it from
that that, up until the time you left Dallas, you didn’t notice any
substantial changes in him?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say that there may have been a little—you
know, there may have been some change, but how much there was or how
much; I know this; I am certain within the man there would have to be
some change, because when I left already, how long has passed, maybe
5 or 6 weeks have already passed by. Within the feelings of himself,
which I don’t know, there must have been some change within him, you
know, which I sort of surmised. Now, how much, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has there ever been any time that you have talked to Jack
where he wasn’t coherent?
Mr. SENATOR. Take that coherent word and use another phrase.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You use a phrase that is more appropriate to you. I take
it you have some idea of what I am suggesting.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, when you say “coherent,” break it down to another
word and make it more simplified for me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anytime that you talked to him where it appeared
that he did not understand what you were saying to him?
Mr. SENATOR. I never noticed it, or even thought about it that way. I
don’t even know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever anytime when you would ask him a question
or say something to him and you would get back a response which did not
make any sense to you?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so; not that I can recall. I don’t think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anytime when you would ask Jack questions and he
would not be able to respond at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he was able to respond.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you at anytime talked with Jack about the events of
November 22, 23, and 24?
Mr. SENATOR. Never at anytime have I ever been at that jailhouse where
anything like that ever come up. I have never asked him, and I don’t
think anybody would to my knowledge, would ask him questions like that,
because this would be a hard subject to talk about. I would assume
probably in the condition that he was in and the locale, the placement
of where he is in, of what he is in——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate to you any fear; has he indicated
any fear to you in the times that you have talked to him since he shot
Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t look fearful to me. Now I don’t know, you know.
I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to do now is go through with you some
documents. I have got a series of photographs and other things here,
and I want to ask you some questions about them. I am going to hand you
what has been marked for identification as “Exhibit 5304-A,” which was
used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a photograph, and
I am going to hand it to you and ask you if you recognize where that
photograph was taken?
Mr. SENATOR. I am not familiar with it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anybody in that photograph?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. Where is it supposed to be?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am asking you.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you look at the man who is tending bar? Do you
recognize him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it is a pretty shady picture to see his face.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Exhibit
5304-B, which was also used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong.
That is another photograph, and it shows a girl in a western costume
standing on a table. Do you recognize any of the people in that
photograph, or do you recognize where that photograph was taken?
Mr. SENATOR. No; never seen a place with elkhorns or whatever they are.
Is that a night club or a restaurant, that place?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I was hoping you would be able to tell us.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I’ll tell you with a guess; it looks like a
restaurant, according to the curtains. That is what it looks like to
me. I don’t even know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what has been marked as “Exhibit
5302,” and unless I indicate to the contrary, all of these exhibits
have been used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a
photograph of a man. Do you recognize that man?
Mr. SENATOR. No; is he a Dallas man? I don’t know that man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I hand you Exhibit 5303-A, and I would like you to
look over that photograph. It is actually a series of about 12 small
photos. Can you tell me if you recognize anybody in there?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I know it is the Carousel. These prints are pretty
small for my eyesight. I have seen him. I don’t know who he is, but I
have seen him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating a fat, obese man?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have seen him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you seen him?
Mr. SENATOR. At the Carousel. I believe these occurred, I think, when
they were having—what do you call that now? I think when they were
giving prizes away, if I am not mistaken, on this particular time, and
then sometimes they would have on Friday or Saturday, Saturday night,
amateur hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be amateur strippers?
Mr. SENATOR. Once in a while—there was one girl who would always bring
up, after she got through she would always bring up one fellow to do
the twist. Now this wasn’t every night; only this one girl when she was
on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of Jack’s stripteasers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, I think I saw him do the twist
once.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That big, fat man?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. But I can’t see the faces here. But I can’t help but
recognize him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You can’t make out the faces in looking at those
photographs?
Mr. SENATOR. This is an M.C.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating the center photograph at the top?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is an M.C. This looks like Tammi.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tammi True?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The left-hand side in the third photograph?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, are they all Tammi’s? Yes; that
is Tammi. This girl is not clear enough for me to see. I am certain I
know her, but I can’t tell which one that is. That is about all I can
see there. The majority are all customers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do not recognize any of the customers.
Mr. SENATOR. No, because they ain’t looking this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me hand you Exhibit 5303-B and ask you if you
recognize any of the people in those photographs.
Mr. SENATOR. That is Tammi True.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper that is shown in those photographs is Tammi
True?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the customers?
Mr. SENATOR. This you can’t see at all. This you can’t see at all.
I can’t tell from this. This is no way of seeing; this is no way of
seeing. This you can’t see hardly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I hand you Exhibit 5303-C and ask you if you recognize any
of the people in those photographs?
Mr. SENATOR. I know the stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?
Mr. SENATOR. That is Kathy Kay, but I can’t recognize anybody from the
back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; now, Exhibit 5303-D; do you recognize anybody
in there?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Little Lynn?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; as I know her. You called her Karen. What is her last
name?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bennett.
Mr. SENATOR. Bennett; yes. I don’t recognize anybody else here though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Little Lynn before you began to live with
Jack Ruby the last time?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. All I know—see, I didn’t always come
there every night, you know, but I walked in one night and I saw her
there and, of course, I didn’t know who she was. She had already been
there a few days, I think, or something like that, which I didn’t know.
This is the one that, I guess you probably know, that came in with that
gun with no firing pin. I guess you heard about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was at the trial, was it not?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or one of the hearings.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; she come in with this gun, which I believe didn’t
have a firing pin, and, of course, there was no ammunition, but it was
a blank gun. According to what I have heard around the station there,
that she had switched bags and was in a hurry or something like that,
and she didn’t even know the gun was in there, according to what I have
heard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven’t talked to her about it?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. When that happened, she was being searched just as
you walk into the courtroom, and that is where they got her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you look at Exhibit 5303-E and tell me if you
recognize anybody in there?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know the stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?
Mr. SENATOR. Joy Dale. The people, no. They are all facing the other
way. That is why I can’t recognize anybody.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now look at Exhibit 5303-F and tell me if you recognize
anybody in there?
Mr. SENATOR. This is Kathy Kay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Kathy Kay?
Mr. SENATOR. Kathy Kay, and this is Joy on this side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Joy Dale on the right-hand side, a stripper?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And Kathy Kay on the left?
Mr. SENATOR. This is that big heavy-set fellow which I can tell. I
don’t know his name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The top picture in the center?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. And the cocktail waitress.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the cocktail waitress?
Mr. SENATOR. Bonnie something. I don’t know her last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she shown in the picture in the lower right-hand side?
Mr. SENATOR. Bonnie. I don’t know her last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize anybody else?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me see. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I hand you Exhibit 5303-G. Do you recognize anybody in
there?
Mr. SENATOR. This is Kathy Kay, the stripper. Excuse me, not Kathy Kay.
This is Tammi True. That is an error. But I can’t see no faces there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5303-H. Other than the strippers,
do you recognize any of the other people in those pictures?
Mr. SENATOR. You don’t want the strippers, right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mr. SENATOR. I am looking for the face here but I can’t see it. This
one I can’t see the face well. Whether I know him or not, I don’t think
so but I just can’t see their face well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Exhibit 5303-I, other than the stripper and the fat
man who is shown there, do you recognize any of the people?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, Exhibit 5303-J, other than the entertainers, do
you recognize any of the people?
Mr. SENATOR. I can tell that this is Tammi True from the back. No, no,
I don’t. The M.C. I don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the M.C.?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know his name. He was only there a short
while, this particular one here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me give you Exhibit 5303-K.
Mr. SENATOR. Where did you get this good picture?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the people shown there?
Mr. SENATOR. That is the cocktail waitress. I can’t distinguished who
it is. This sort of looks like Jack, but I am not sure.