Mr. SENATOR. I am not happy over the fights.
Mr. HUBERT. My question is how frequently it happened.
Mr. SENATOR. How frequent I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were a witness to some, I take it, and when it
began you would want to get away, is that the idea?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I tell you where I heard most of it, I mean what
I can recollect is when around the telephone. Of course, I can’t
hear her, but I can hear him shouting, so apparently I know there is
something that is flickering.
He is hollering at her about something, or she is hollering at him
about something. See, she is hard to get along with, with the employees
of the Vegas Club. She is just hard to work for. All I know is I never
want to work for her.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the ownership of the Sovereign and the Carousel?
Do you know anything about that, who owned that?
Mr. SENATOR. The Sovereign, he has some partner. I don’t remember who
his partner was. Of course, this is all before I got that close, but he
had a partner in the Sovereign Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Joe Slayton was it?
Mr. SENATOR. That is it, Joe Slayton.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, Slayton ultimately got out of it, didn’t he?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your impression that Jack owned the Sovereign
entirely?
Mr. SENATOR. No; Joe Slayton was a part owner.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean after Slayton left.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know about that. That is a little before me.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Ralph Paul? Did he have any part in it?
Mr. SENATOR. Ralph Paul had a part in it. I don’t know what the
breakdown was, but I know Ralph Paul was connected with it.
Mr. HUBERT. Connected by way of ownership?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe he was connected by ownership. I mean if he
owned half or what it was I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. On what facts do you base that?
Mr. SENATOR. On guesswork. I know he had something to do with it. What
part he owned I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. What facts make you state that you know he had something to
do with it? There must be something that occurred again.
Mr. SENATOR. Nothing occurred because I mean I have seen Ralph, I know
Ralph, and I know there is the association of him having a part of that
club somehow.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it to you this way. Did Jack ever tell you that
Ralph Paul owned part of it?
Mr. SENATOR. Not directly, but I knew. You know as well as I know Jack,
there was an awful lot of things he didn’t tell me circularwise. You
can say moneywise where he kept his money, if he had a bank account, I
know he had a connection with Ralph Paul. How much Ralph owned I don’t
know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Paul ever tell you anything about his interest or
ownership?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the first time he mentioned it to me, and, of course,
this is after this whole deal happened.
Mr. HUBERT. The shooting?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you?
Mr. SENATOR. He said once that he had a part of that place there. He
was part owner of that place.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when he told you that, and where?
Mr. SENATOR. He told me at the Carousel, but I don’t remember when. I
mean I can’t specifically remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that he took over the management right
away, as soon as Jack was in jail?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he did. Now, I don’t know how much he owned or how
much Jack owned.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that it was an ownership interest?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, there was, but how much I don’t know. In other words,
I don’t know who owned the bigger piece or if it was equal.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that only the two of them had an interest in
it?
Mr. SENATOR. To my knowledge. I don’t know of anybody else.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of his brother Earl having a possible
interest in it?
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Earl?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure. The first time I met Earl is, of course, when all
this happened.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know him before that?
Mr. SENATOR. Never seen him before in my life.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Sam?
Mr. SENATOR. Sam? I knew Sam. I have never seen him that often. Of
course, I met Sam at the Vegas Club. Sam at one time worked there with
Eva, and they couldn’t get along, so Sam was out, fighting like cats
and dogs. Eva is just a hard girl to work for.
Mr. HUBERT. What was Jack Ruby’s attitude toward the police as a group?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, all I know is apparently he must like them. They
always used to come to see him.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about those who came to see him. Do you know who
they were?
Mr. SENATOR. I knew a lot of them by face. I didn’t know them all by
name.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they come frequently?
Mr. SENATOR. Various ones, yes, every day. I don’t say it is the same
ones, whoever was coming in, but they would either be plain clothes or
police in uniforms.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they come to inspect or to enjoy the club as a place of
entertainment?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, they came to inspect, to my knowledge I would say
they came to inspect, but Jack always offered them a coffee, asked them
if they wanted coffee, a Seven-Up or a Coke.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t it a rule in fact that they could get such little
items as coffee and Cokes and Seven-Ups and soft drinks without cost?
He gave them that?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that was the nature of it.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the arrangement about the entrance fee? They
didn’t pay that, if they came socially?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have been on the door yourself?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any instructions on that?
Mr. SENATOR. No, they didn’t pay entry.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they pay for drinks?
Mr. SENATOR. They had a special rate.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it?
Mr. SENATOR. I think 40 cents, or anybody that was a friend of his—in
other words, for an example, your taxi drivers, the taxi drivers used
to bring customers. In other words, an out-of-towner would say “where
can you go,” they would say the Carousel or the Colony or wherever they
may bring them.
So they brought them up there, in other words, if they were off duty
and wanted to come up, they were guests of Jack’s, and they paid a
special price for drinks.
Mr. HUBERT. And they didn’t pay the admission charge?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Now the fellows who worked downstairs in the garage,
they were allowed in, but at a special price. The special price was no
different for anybody. It was all one price, the special.
In other words, they gave them a discount on beer or the setups,
whichever they were having, and your hotel bellcaps and things in that
area, he always let them in free.
I mean he was good to these type people, you know, and, of course,
these weren’t people of tremendous means or of that nature, and
everyone had a cut price, he always gave them a discount on the drinks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back a bit. Talking about the ownership of
the Vegas Club and the Carousel Club, did Jack rent the premises of the
Vegas Club or did he own part of that building?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I think he rented it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He rented it, so when you talk about ownership of that
operation out there——
Mr. SENATOR. Not owning the building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not talking about any real estate.
Mr. SENATOR. No, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He did have some physical assets out there I suppose? He
had tables and chairs?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And a piano maybe?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, that is what you are talking about when you talk about
ownership?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. In other words, ownership, I refer to the merchandise
or the things in the place, not only the building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the right to get the profits if there were any?
Did he get the profits off the Vegas Club or did Eva Grant get the
profits, or did they share it in some way?
Mr. SENATOR. This part I don’t know. All I know is the money was
handled by Eva, and which way the money ever swung was left out of
my—wasn’t any of my business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack had a practice at the Carousel, and correct me if I
am wrong about this, that at the end of every night, he would take that
night’s receipts and he would take them down to his car, right?
Mr. SENATOR. Either that or put them in his pocket.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or put them in his pocket?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, whichever he saw fit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what would he do once he got that money in his pocket
or in the car? What would he do with it, take it back to the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he do with it in the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Just leave it in his pants or whatever it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe back in the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe at the Carousel Club?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he visit the Vegas Club every night?
Mr. SENATOR. No. He would probably say he would visit the Vegas
Club—you know, for a while they were running this amateur hour every
Friday, and Jack would go after he closed the Carousel, he would go
over to the Vegas because the Vegas would stay open one hour later.
I don’t know how to describe it. They were able to stay open until
3 o’clock in the morning, and they would have a little bit of
entertainment from 2 to 3, and Jack would sort of MC it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you say Jack wouldn’t go there every night?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many nights a week would he go to the Vegas Club?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say, of course, I can’t always say, I
don’t always see him all the time, you know, and I am not with him all
the time, but I would probably say it was more so weekends. Now, during
the week I don’t say that he probably hasn’t jumped over there, because
if he has I don’t even know, because when he does go out he doesn’t
tell me his moves where he is going.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were living with Jack at the Carousel Club in
that period of time, how long was that that you lived at the Carousel
Club?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how long he lived there before me. I don’t
know how long he lived there previous to when I came, but I wasn’t
there too long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there a week or 2 weeks?
Mr. SENATOR. It might be. I just don’t remember how long it could be.
It might have been 2 weeks. It might have been 3 weeks, I don’t know.
It might be that long. Mind you, I want you to know this is guesswork.
I am only guessing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your impression that during the week on 5-day weeks
that maybe 3 or 4 nights out of a week he would not go to the Vegas
Club?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am saying that he wouldn’t go to the Vegas Club. There
would be 3 or 4 nights out of the week that he would not go to the
Vegas Club?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I would probably say that, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was done with the money over at the Vegas Club
every night?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, that part I don’t know. I am not familiar
with that part.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Jack take any money from the Vegas Club
and bring it back to the apartment or put it in his car or in his
pockets?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not out of the Vegas. I don’t know if it has been
done, but I haven’t witnessed it. The money is handled, at the Vegas
the money is handled by Eva. Now, how she disburses it or banks it I
don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any bank accounts that Jack maintained?
Mr. SENATOR. He had one bank. What he had in it I don’t know. I am
trying to think of the name of the bank. Do you have a listing of the
banks he has? Can you refresh my memory on it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I can give you a list of banks and read off some names.
Tell me if any of these are familiar to you. How about the Park Cities
Bank and Trust Company?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the National Bank of Commerce?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The American Bank and Trust Company?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Mercantile National Bank?
Mr. SENATOR. No; see, if you can find one on—continue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the Industrial National Bank.
Mr. SENATOR. Merchants. Have you got Merchants? That is the one I am
thinking of. I think he had a bank account at the Merchants.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But not the Mercantile National Bank?
Mr. SENATOR. If he did I didn’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there two different banks, one the Merchants and the
other the Mercantile?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the South Oak Cliff State Bank?
Mr. SENATOR. If he did I didn’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you only heard of one?
Mr. SENATOR. I heard of the Merchants.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss what was done with the
receipts from the Vegas Club?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Eva Grant mention that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; but I will tell you what I assumed. I assumed the
money was paid, what money was taken in, I assumed that the employees
were paid off, the band was paid off, the gas and electric and the rent
would come out of that. This is what I assumed, or whatever incidentals
there might be. Now, the disposal otherwise I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Then the fact is that you don’t really know how the funds
at the Vegas were handled?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or what part Jack got of it?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now let’s move to the period of the week of the
assassination of the President Can you tell us first of all where you
were when you heard of the assassination?
Mr. SENATOR. I was in a bar having a liquid lunch. I was uptown. I was
in a bar and had a couple of beers for lunch instead of eating lunch,
and some chap walked in, who I don’t know, and he drove up with his car
and he had the radio on, and as he walked in he said, “The President
was shot.” And I hollered “You’re kidding.” He says, “No; I am not
kidding.” So we got outside, and this is all going on on this car radio
we listened to.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in downtown Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was uptown.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen the Presidential parade?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t see it at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Jack planned to see the parade?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment about the President’s visit?
Mr. SENATOR. You see, let me jump a little ahead of that. That morning,
you see, of course, which is a working day for me, I am up much earlier
than he is, and he was sleeping when I left that morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him the night before?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the night before.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you discussed the visit of the President, his coming
the next day?
Mr. SENATOR. We talked about that. We talked about the President was
coming in, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of his comment concerning this?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what he said.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean the words, but the ideas.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, we were happy that he was coming.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack was too?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; coming into Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you why he felt happy about it?
Mr. SENATOR. No: I just don’t remember if he did relate that or not,
but we thought it was a great honor for him to come to Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he think his coming would help business in Dallas
generally, and his business in particular?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no comment on that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he state whether or not he was going to try to see the
parade?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t mention that.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have previously said in a statement that you
saw him sometime that night, and he went out or something, and then,
you went to bed?
Mr. SENATOR. No. The next time that I saw him was the following morning
when he woke me up.
Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the night now of the 21st, before
the President was shot, Thursday night, you all talked about the
President’s coming. Did he go out or stay at home, do you recall?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he is at the club. He goes to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. He is at the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to bed, and when he came in I assume you were
sleeping.
Mr. SENATOR. You are talking about Thursday?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, I am talking about Thursday night and Friday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. Thursday night—the President came in Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but Thursday night did Jack follow his usual routine?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; his usual routine.
Mr. HUBERT. You were asleep I guess when he got back?
Mr. SENATOR. Thursday night I don’t remember if I was or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, Friday morning when you got up he was asleep.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t talk to him until you heard of the death of
the President?
Mr. SENATOR. No; the next time that I talked to him was Saturday
morning.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t speak to him at all on Friday afternoon after
the death?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I never saw him at all. I was out. I was out all day.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go home on Friday night at all?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure.
Mr. HUBERT. What time?
Mr. SENATOR. Friday night I must have went home around somewheres
between 10 and 11. Of course, I bought the paper at the Adolphus before
I went home. I always buy a paper, too.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack home then?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He had not attempted to contact you from the time of the
President’s death at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No. He couldn’t contact me because I was around.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you try to contact him?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you bring out where it was that he was around?
Mr. SENATOR. When I said “around”?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. SENATOR. Around town, no particular place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you going from bar to bar?
Mr. SENATOR. No, not bar to bar. I had been at a couple of bars. I was
with a friend of mine that night, and we went out, we had a couple of
beers and we were so disgusted, if you can picture the overall picture
of Friday night in the city of Dallas after the occurrence, what
happened that afternoon or late that morning, the city was, I don’t
know how to describe it, morguelike. They were brooding. Everybody was
brooding, a sad affair.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course you don’t know whether Jack went to the apartment
on Friday night before you got there?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. So you went home and went to bed.
Mr. SENATOR. I read the paper in bed, and that is when I saw the why’s
about the President. They had a list, “Why, Mr. President?”
Mr. HUBERT. A full-page ad?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; “Why, Mr. President,” so and so, “Why are you here?”
Mr. HUBERT. The one signed by Bernard Weissman? W-e-i-s-s-m-a-n.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw that before you saw Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, I read the paper in bed.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to sleep, I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?
Mr. SENATOR. The next thing I know somebody was hollering at me, and
shaking me up. This was around 3 o’clock in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. That was who?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Now describe him to us at that time. What was his condition?
Mr. SENATOR. He was excited. He was moody; and the first thing come out
of his mouth is the incident. Of course, the incident what happened
to President Kennedy, and he said, “Gee, his poor children and Mrs.
Kennedy, what a terrible thing to happen.”
Mr. HUBERT. Had he been drinking?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack don’t drink.
Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t drinking on this occasion?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he don’t drink, no.
Mr. HUBERT. And his remarks were concerning the children?
Mr. SENATOR. The children and Mrs. Kennedy and how sorry he felt for
them.
Mr. HUBERT. What other comments did he make?
Mr. SENATOR. Then he brought up the situation where he saw this poster
of Justice of the Peace Earl Warren, impeach him. Earl Warren.
Mr. HUBERT. He said he had seen that poster?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he had saw that poster.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say when he had noticed it?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think he noticed it that day or sometime that day, I
assume. I am not sure, but I think it was that day, and I assume that
when something goes into his brain he wants to follow it up and find
out why, why that poster was up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had some experiences like that before?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean you said some experiences where he got
something in his mind and he wanted to find out why, and he followed it
up.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I can’t relate any, but I assume these
things could happen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had never had any experience of that sort?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I haven’t had any experience.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, this was a new experience for you.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and he made me get dressed.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you when he made you get dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. He was telling me about this sign here.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did he want you to get dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. He wanted me to go down to see the sign, and meanwhile he
had called. He had a kid sleeping in the club who helps around, and he
has got a Polaroid camera. So he calls the kid up, wakes him up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that call?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that call?
Mr. SENATOR. Yeah, he calls him up and says, “Larry, get up, get
dressed,” something of that nature, “and get that Polaroid with the
flashbulbs and meet me downstairs. I’ll be right downtown.”
Mr. HUBERT. That was after he told you to get dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after he told me first.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he at that time comment upon or notice the Weissman
ad that you had been reading the night before, the big ad that you
commented upon, “Why, Mr. President,” I think it was called?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember he noticed it there or he noticed it
after the incident. Now, if he seen it before I just don’t remember,
but I know after we got through this incident, which I will relate to
you, we were looking at this ad.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was at the house?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; this was—I saw it myself originally.
Mr. HUBERT. In the newspapers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You had the newspaper on your bed. You had gone to sleep
reading?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I probably threw it on the floor. I think I threw it
on the floor before I went to bed.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case you have no recollection that you discussed the
ad prior to leaving the house?
Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t remember if I did or not, but I do know that
we did look at that ad that night at another place.
Mr. HUBERT. We will get to that. What happened next then?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got dressed, went downstairs, got in the car. I
got dressed. We went downtown. We picked up Larry. He drove over to
where this billboard was.
Mr. HUBERT. Had he told you where it was beforehand?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he told me it was on the corner of Hall and the
expressway.
Mr. HUBERT. Which expressway?
Mr. SENATOR. North Central Expressway. I had an indication because I
sort of knew the location of the area. I know where Hall Street is and
I know where the expressway is.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead. Just pick up as to what happened.
Mr. SENATOR. So we went downtown and picked up Larry. From there we
drove over to where this billboard was, and he had the kid take three
Polaroid shots of this billboard. Now, what his intentions were with
these I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t express any?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t say what he was going to do with them but he
wanted three shots.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him or did anyone else ask him why he wanted to
take pictures of this?
Mr. SENATOR. No; all he said to me, “I can’t understand why they want
to impeach Earl Warren.” He said, “This must be the work of the John
Birch Society or the Communist Party.” And he wanted to know why.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say how taking a picture would help him to find out?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t. He didn’t say how that would help him to
find out. So from there we went down to the post office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry go with you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. To the post office, I mean.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do at the post office?
Mr. SENATOR. Wait now, we went down to the post area. This sort of
slips away from me when the time gets by on the ad. We must have
discussed it or seen it at the house. I just remember now, but I think
we probably did. We must have seen it. So anyhow we went up to the post
office.