Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, we have had about a 10-minute recess. You
understand, of course, that we are continuing this deposition by the
same authority and under the same conditions which I stated to you at
the very beginning of it, and further that you are under the same oath
that you were prior to the recess. Is that agreeable with you? You
understand that?
Mr. SENATOR. I can’t lie because I didn’t bring a lawyer with me.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. SENATOR. I said I am not lying because I didn’t bring a lawyer with
me.
Mr. HUBERT. So that the record may be clear on the point, I want to see
if I understand your last remark. Does it indicate that you wish to
have a lawyer?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to get it straight.
Mr. SENATOR. I say that I didn’t come here to lie; so I don’t need a
lawyer.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, now we are at the point about 2 years ago when
a casual relationship which you have described with Ruby changed into
something else. Why don’t you just tell us about that in your own words?
Mr. SENATOR. All right. I mentioned before Volume Sales. When I got
through with Volume Sales I was unemployed again, and I used to jump up
to Jack’s place, his other place, which is the Carousel. Previous to
that there was the Sovereign Club, a private club. On rare occasions I
used to go up there and we started getting a little more friendly.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about 2 years ago or prior to that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that was while I was still with Volume Sales. In other
words, that was, I would say, approximately about 2½ years ago. I used
to go up to the Sovereign Club; you know it is a private club; they
don’t let you in normally, but he used to let me in to watch the show.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember actually when that opened?
Mr. SENATOR. Which?
Mr. HUBERT. The Sovereign.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when it changed from the Sovereign to the
Carousel?
Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t around for the change, but I would say that it
was over 2 years ago. Now just how much over, I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you concur in the suggestion that it would be
approximately Christmas of 1961, which would be about 2 years and 5 or
6 months?
Mr. SENATOR. That it changed to the Carousel?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t quote that. I couldn’t even quote it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can I interrupt you here Mr. Hubert? How did you happen to
come to terminate your employment with Volume Sales?
Mr. SENATOR. You have got to know the man. He is a hard guy to work
for. He was really a tough guy to work for. You see, No. 1, he is a
salesman himself, and he is a pretty shrewd salesman, and he had Volume
Sales, which were novelty, sort of novelty and gift item type things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of things?
Mr. SENATOR. Novelties? Well that would be variations. In other words,
you probably have seen these little things with different sayings on
them. Remember the little miniature loving cups with the different
sayings on them? Things of this nature, and other gag items and key
chains and little bar sets and little weather sets and things of that
nature, and funny matches. Just a variation of those things of that
nature. And when I traveled for him and I’d get back to town, he would
knock me off $50. In others words, my draw wasn’t stable with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first started to visit the Sovereign Club, as you
say Jack would let you in, I take it you didn’t have membership in the
Sovereign Club?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because I think at the Sovereign Club I probably
attended that place maybe three or four times or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Mr. Ruby running the same kind of shows at the
Sovereign Club that he later had at the Carousel?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; he was running acts, you know, he had acts,
singers or dancers or comedians, something of that nature you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have striptease performance?
Mr. SENATOR. No; the Sovereign; no; there were no strippers when he had
the Sovereign Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with the other nightclubs in town when
Mr. Ruby had the Sovereign Club?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I knew some of them; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you visit any of those?
Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions; yes. I couldn’t afford them, number
one. I was never a member because I couldn’t afford membership. I
wasn’t making that kind of money. But I’d either go up with a friend
who was a member or something of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there something about the Sovereign Club that was more
attractive to you than some of the other clubs?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly; no. It is just that I knew Jack and
Jack said like he said a thousand times to many people. First of all
the Carousel of course is a $2 admission. But many people would say
“Come on up, be my guest,” free admission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any other nightclub operators in town at the
time Jack was running the Sovereign Club and letting you in?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, normally on getting into clubs I would probably go
in with a friend who was a member. You probably know the Kings Club and
the Adolphus don’t you or you heard of it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; for example did you know the manager of the Theatre
Lounge?
Mr. SENATOR. As of recent?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Back there when you were going to the Sovereign Club and
Jack would let you in.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I knew who the owner was but I didn’t know the
manager, who the manager was at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know Abe Weinstein?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I don’t know him that well. I know who he is, I
know him casually.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you visited his clubs?
Mr. SENATOR. On very rare occasions. Abe’s place I have probably been
up maybe as long as I have been in Dallas, if I have been up there four
times I have been up there a lot, if I have been up there that many
times.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; now we had progressed to the point where your
casual relationship with Jack Ruby had developed into a little more
than that commencing roughly about 2½ years ago when you began to go
to the Sovereign Club. I think you went there about four or five times
before it changed to the Carousel. But you have previously mentioned
that about 2 years ago something happened that changed this improving
relationship let’s say in the sense that you got to know each other
better, so that you could be called friends then. Something happened
you said about 2 years ago, and that is what I want you to take it from
there.
Mr. SENATOR. When I got through with Volume Sales I was unemployed
again. In other words, I was down again. So Jack Ruby is of a nature,
he will help somebody. Rather he has to feed them or give them a place
to sleep or something of this nature, this is when he took me in when
he knew I was broke. He said “George you can stay with me.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him you were broke or did he find out from
another source?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I told him I was down.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask to go in with him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I’ll tell you why. I don’t think I did. At that time
Jack was changing over and he had some pretty rough times. He had
changed over from this Sovereign Club. Now how rough he had it there
I don’t know because I wasn’t intimate with him at that time, that
intimate. And he went into this burlesque business.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the Carousel you mean?
Mr. SENATOR. The Carousel and he was bucking somebody who had never
been bucked before. That is the Weinstein brothers who owned the
Theatre Lounge and the Colony Club and who have had the monopoly of
that type nature of business for many, many years. Now, for him to buck
them he has really got something to buck.
Mr. HUBERT. So he was having difficulties and you were too?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; originally I was sleeping at the club and so was he.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn’t have an apartment at all?
Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t have an apartment at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that situation go on?
Mr. SENATOR. It didn’t last too long, because as business started to
pick up some he was sleeping, he had his own room in the club and he
had a fold-out bed that I could sleep on and I slept there for awhile.
Mr. HUBERT. So that originally when Jack took you in, as it were, to
assist you, he took you in at the club, and not into any apartment
which he then had?
Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t have an apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I say.
Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t have an apartment at that time. But he was
always good in feeding somebody if they were down and out.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he gave you cash?
Mr. SENATOR. Either that or he gave me a little cash for spending money
or he would just take me.
Mr. HUBERT. Just do what?
Mr. SENATOR. Take me to eat, you know, when he went to eat. He’d pay
for my laundry or have my suit pressed, things of that nature.
Mr. HUBERT. But then he did get an apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. He got an apartment but I don’t remember just how long
after that.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case when he got an apartment you moved into that
apartment with him?
Mr. SENATOR. See I am a little blank on one point there. I just don’t
remember how the outcome was when he moved out of there into the
apartment. I can’t remember just how long I stayed up at the club with
him. It wasn’t too long, though. I don’t remember how long. But anyhow
he got this apartment on South Ewing.
Mr. HUBERT. On South Ewing?
Mr. SENATOR. No; Marsalis.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you moved in with him right away?
Mr. SENATOR. Then I went in with him. Now I don’t remember if I went
in with him—I don’t remember how I went in with him. I can’t place it
together but I know I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have to pay any rent?
Mr. SENATOR. No; but I helped him in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Now when you helped him in the club, what did you do? What
kind of work did you do at the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I sort of ran the lights for him for awhile and I’d
take cash for him.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that is on the front door?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; on the front door.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the $2 admission charge?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And what other jobs did you do?
Mr. SENATOR. Whatever errands he wanted me to do during the course
of the daytime, if he wanted me to pick up something here or pick
up something there or buy something that he needed for the club, go
shopping and things of that nature, whatever it might be.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t do the clean-up jobs?
Mr. SENATOR. No. He had a clean-up boy.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?
Mr. SENATOR. His name was Andrew Armstrong I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there when you first went there?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He was with Jack quite awhile. He was with Jack, I
think he was with Jack before I was there, yes, and he was there until
the time the club closed down.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you travel around with Jack during this period when you
were unemployed and he was helping you out and you were helping him out
by doing errands and so forth? I mean when you got up in the morning
did you both go together? Did you move together or how was it?
Mr. SENATOR. It all depends. First of all he slept pretty good. He
slept pretty late. He liked to sleep. And he used to get up in the
afternoon and mess around, sit around the apartment. If the weather
was right, I mean if it happened to be summertime, he is a great fan
for swimming. Or he’d just mope around the place or hang around the
apartment house.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is whether your helping him out
at the club was a regular thing or just done once in a while.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was doing it regularly. As long as he was keeping me
up, I had to do something, see.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I had in mind.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the club at the same time that he did?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave at the same time that he did?
Mr. SENATOR. I would leave when he left.
Mr. HUBERT. Because you were both going back to the same house?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What about going there? You went earlier?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I left earlier. In other words he could sit in
the apartment longer than I could.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you normally go to work then?
Mr. SENATOR. He would always make me go in in early, somewheres around
between 7 and 8. He wanted me to see that things were set up.
Mr. HUBERT. You never had to go in midafternoon though?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; unless if we did go in midafternoon, which was
rare, probably maybe to feed the dogs or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Who took care of the reservations and all other matters of
that sort?
Mr. SENATOR. Andrew.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did Andrew get there?
Mr. SENATOR. Andrew was there; Andrew would come there somewhere around
1 o’clock in the afternoon. See Andrew lived there for a short while
too after we had left. He was staying there. And then I think he got
married or something like that. But Andrew was with him about 2 years I
guess, maybe a little longer.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already covered the next stage, and that
was when you got a job and also you were disgusted with the conditions
and so you moved in with Corbat?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now during the period that you lived with Corbat, which
would have been, as I remember it, from August of 1962 until August of
1963—is that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your relationship with Jack then?
Mr. SENATOR. August of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. That is when you moved out of Jack’s apartment and took up
with Corbat.
Mr. SENATOR. I always went to see him. I always used to come up there.
At rare times I would help him at the door.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had a job then?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. But I would go up there and I would help him at the
door, things of that kind.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, he for a good part of that period
he actually lived in the South Ewing Apartments where you lived with
Corbat, is that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We moved there practically the same time; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that in spite of the fact that you broke up the domestic
establishment that you had, there was no ill feeling between you.
Mr. SENATOR. Never, no, no. We have never had any ill feeling. We got
along excepting when he hollered at me.
Mr. HUBERT. Well we will get to that. In this new job which you had
when you were living with Corbat did you have to use an automobile?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; a wagon.
Mr. HUBERT. A station wagon?
Mr. SENATOR. Volkswagen, one of those box things, what do you call them?
Mr. GRIFFIN. One of those Volkswagen microbuses?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it a passenger car?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it is one of these solid enclosures. It looks like a
box, you know. I don’t know what you call them.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it to hold goods you were displaying?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right; but there was no windows to it except in
the back, the back part.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your car or did it belong to the company?
Mr. SENATOR. It was the company.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say you continued to go to the Carousel from time
to time. How often about, just roughly?
Mr. SENATOR. Two or three times a week. It all depends.
Mr. HUBERT. And you would help there?
Mr. SENATOR. Not always. Sometimes I would, sometimes I wouldn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. If you helped did he pay you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I did it because I still remember what he has done for
me when I was down and out, and it wasn’t that many hours or it wasn’t
difficult labor or anything of that nature. But I still remembered the
things he did for me, when I was down and out.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then I think we have covered the time when
Corbat left and you lost your job and found that you were down and out
and again you moved into his apartment then, giving up the apartment
next door.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he invite you in then or did you ask him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he invited me. He knew I was pressed.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had to give up the automobile at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I had the automobile until January.
Mr. HUBERT. The fact is I think you told us that you were working with
these people until after Oswald was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.