Mr. HUBERT. No; I’m talking about the Sovereign.
Mr. PAUL. The Sovereign was no consideration—just the stock deal, that
if anything happens to the club I should get some money out of it for
the fixtures.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, as a matter of fact you had actually loaned him 4
months’ rent at $550, whatever that is?
Mr. PAUL. About $2,200.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; $2,200, so, was it considered that that loan or that
indebtedness was the consideration for the stock?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Or, was the stock merely to secure it?
Mr. PAUL. That’s the security of that money—the stock was the security
of the money.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, if he had paid the money back to you, he
was entitled to the stock?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right. In fact, he took the stock certificate one
time; he thought he would be able to sell the club.
Mr. HUBERT. I see.
Mr. PAUL. He thought he would be able to sell the club, so I give him
the stock certificates; you know—you deal with people in money, that’s
true, and you are very careful, but sometimes friendship overshadows a
lot of things.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you say there that therefore there was
a close friendship between you and Jack. Did you continue during that
time on a friendly basis; that is to say, visiting at the Vegas or
Sovereign Club?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were always friends.
Mr. HUBERT. You think you saw him two or three times a week during that
time?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be from 1958 on?
Mr. PAUL. No; prior to that I saw him a lot of times before.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack was never married, was he?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was the Sovereign located? Was it the same place as
the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the changeover from the
Sovereign to the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; I forced him to change that over.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; tell us about that, if you can tell us the dates
and times, as close as you can.
Mr. PAUL. And, he needed money; the Sovereign Club was dead, as far
as he was concerned. Either he closed it or—either he closes it or he
does something else with it. So, I told him to change it to a burlesque
house and I will give him $1,650 to pay more rent on the place so
he could go on, so I loaned him $1,650 more to turn it over to a
burlesque. That’s when he changed it from the Sovereign Club, a private
club, to a burlesque house, which was an open place.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, with the Sovereign Club you had to belong
to the club?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Sort of a bottle club, as required by the laws of Texas?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right; he had a bottle club.
Mr. HUBERT. If you belonged to the club, you could buy liquor in the
club, and if you didn’t you couldn’t, and it was your thought that the
thing could be a success if its nature were changed?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; well, it’s an open place.
Mr. HUBERT. It’s an open place, a burlesque house, but, of course, you
couldn’t sell hard liquor?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But it would sell beer?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. But your proposition to him was that you would advance
$1,650 in the new venture to at least pay the rent for some time?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the incorporation of the S. &
R., Inc.?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; the S. & R. started the thing. That was the first deal;
S. & R. is Slayton and Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say “the first deal,” are you speaking of the
corporation that existed with reference to the Sovereign Club?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you aware that there was a corporation called
Sovereign, Inc., that owned the Sovereign Club?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you told me that he endorsed over as security 500
of the shares?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was not the S. & R. shares with the stock
certificates, was it?
Mr. PAUL. The S. & R. was the Sovereign Club. The original Sovereign
Club was the S. & R., because Slayton didn’t belong to anything else
but the Sovereign Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me see if I can get this straight; you mentioned that
in order to start the Sovereign Club you advanced $1,650?
Mr. PAUL. No; that’s after Slayton went out.
Mr. HUBERT. After Slayton went out?
Mr. PAUL. Jack Ruby owned the whole thing then.
Mr. HUBERT. He did?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you loaned him 3 or 4 months’ rent?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In return for which he pledged to you or gave you as
security 500 shares of the stock of the corporation?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But I want to know what corporation was that; was that the
Sovereign?
Mr. PAUL. S. & R.
Mr. HUBERT. And what year would that have been in?
Mr. PAUL. In 1959 or 1960.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, apparently you were not aware that there was a
Sovereign, Inc.; a corporation called Sovereign, Inc.?
Mr. PAUL. No; all I knew was that it was the S. & R.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, when the place was changed to the Carousel, what
happened to your 500 shares?
Mr. PAUL. It’s still the same thing; Carousel is only a name. It’s
still S. & R.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you still have those shares?
Mr. PAUL. No; I gave them over to his sister.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that?
Mr. PAUL. February 14.
Mr. HUBERT. Of this year?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had held those shares, half of the ownership, as it
were, of the Sovereign Club originally, and subsequently the Carousel,
until recently?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you get any income from the corporation?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any kind of pay?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Of any sort; Jack never paid you any money through the
years at all?
Mr. PAUL. He never paid me a dime.
Mr. HUBERT. And I gather from that that he stands owing you now $1,200,
which was left from the original debt, about $2,200 that you loaned
him for which you got a security—500 shares of a corporation—and then
another $1,650 that you loaned him in order to open up the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. A total of about $5,050, and is it your thought that he
still owes you that much money?
Mr. PAUL. Well, what am I going to do?
Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to find out just what the picture was, as to
that. He never paid you any dividends?
Mr. PAUL. He never had any money to pay me dividends; he always used to
work from his pocket.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the Carousel very much?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir; once or twice a week.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you usually go on Saturday nights?
Mr. PAUL. Not every Saturday night; mostly Friday nights.
Mr. HUBERT. There is some evidence that on those occasions that you
went, there were some sort of payments made to you, Mr. Paul, and
that’s what I want to find out, if there were any. I don’t know what
the nature of them was; that’s why I’m asking you about it. If there
were payments on a loan or payments because of your ownership of the
Carousel.
Mr. PAUL. Not that I know of; not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your statement to me is that Jack Ruby
never paid you any money at all?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Either in the way of repaying the loan or in the way of
dividends? Or in the way of profits?
Mr. PAUL. In the first place, until the last year that he was there, he
was losing money.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. At the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it make some money in the last year?
Mr. PAUL. In the last year I think it made some money, but he was
so much in the hole that he had to pay everybody else. When he was
arrested—now, mind you, when he was arrested—you wouldn’t think that an
electric company—you could owe them that much money, but there was $175
or $180 a month, and he owed them over $600.
Mr. HUBERT. The electric company?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; the electric company—Dallas Electric Lights, and the
telephone company—$153. He kept on owing everybody money.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, you didn’t get any payments of money
from him?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. For your share of what any profits might have been or
dividends or interest or repayment of loan or in any way at all; is
that correct?
Mr. PAUL. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that you gave the 500 shares that you held up
until February 14 of this year to Eva Grant?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us why you did that?
Mr. PAUL. Well, for one reason, I couldn’t run the club; I tried to run
it, but I couldn’t run it. I lost about $3,000 in the time I run it
from the 25th of November until the 14th of February.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever find out who owned the other 500 shares?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it Jack?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know; I was never interested to know all the other
facts, because I never figured to get any money out of the place anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Earl Ruby?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s Jack’s brother?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever met him prior to November 24 or November 25?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. PAUL. In Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he come here often?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I think I met him twice or three times.
Mr. HUBERT. In your whole life, until the 25th?
Mr. PAUL. Until the 25th, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any interest in the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. I couldn’t tell you.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he claim any?
Mr. PAUL. I still don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his brother Hyman?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I met him one time.
Mr. HUBERT. Just one time?
Mr. PAUL. The Friday before the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. Before the murder?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You never met him before?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about his sister, Eileen?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know her at all?
Mr. PAUL. I never heard of her.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think he has another sister called Mrs. Anna Volpert.
Mr. PAUL. No; I don’t know her, either.
Mr. HUBERT. You never met any of the other brothers and sisters?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; Sam and his wife, and Eva and Earl, and that’s all.
Mr. HUBERT. And then Hyman?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Sam, of course, you have seen more often than any of them?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; Sam—well, we were partners for about 3 or 4 months.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but you had no other business relations after that.
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell me why it was that this man owed you
this kind of money and you had the stock at least for security for
something; you gave it to Eva; what caused that to come about; did she
ask you, or did you volunteer to do that?
Mr. PAUL. No; I voluntarily gave it to her so she could sell the club.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your thought was that it wasn’t anything to
you?
Mr. PAUL. I told her, “I don’t want nothing out of it; I don’t want
nothing, I take my loss.” And I let her have it. If she could sell
it—to take the money and use it for herself, because she’s a poor widow
and she will verify everything I said—just the words.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she tell you that she had the other 500 shares?
Mr. PAUL. No; she just told me last week—she was over at my place, and
she told me she didn’t know who had the other 500 shares.
Mr. HUBERT. Has anyone asked Earl about it?
Mr. PAUL. I didn’t ask Earl about it.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Jack himself?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Jack since he has been in jail?
Mr. PAUL. I have seen him three times since he has been in there—one
time I seen him—about 4 weeks ago—the time before I went to New York,
the week before I went to New York I was down there, the 27th, I think
it was, and I came back the 2d.
Mr. HUBERT. That was of April?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you saw him once just before that?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you had seen him since he had been
in jail?
Mr. PAUL. No; I saw him twice when he first got into jail—twice I saw
him then.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was the last time you saw him in jail
and then you saw him two other times before that?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When were those times—about?
Mr. PAUL. I think about the second week and the fourth week—I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with him his business?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir—no, sir; I didn’t discuss it—I didn’t discuss
nothing—how could you discuss a man’s business when he is held for
murder?
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, I didn’t mean that you would bring up the
subject, but I was wondering if perhaps he had asked about it?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you have been unable to get from any source
Jack or Earl or Eva or Sam or anybody else where the other 500 shares
are?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you gave your 500 you held to her—you received nothing
in return for it?
Mr. PAUL. No: what I told her to do was to pay the Government.
Mr. HUBERT. And from all you know, she doesn’t even know where the
other 500 shares are?
Mr. PAUL. No; that’s what she told me.
Mr. HUBERT. I noticed on your income tax return, too, that you had a
capital loss that you have spread over some years of $7,000; I think,
last year was about the last of it—I think you used about $1,000 a
year; is that in connection with any of this, or is that another
transaction?
Mr. PAUL. No; that’s from the Miramar and the ice cream place—that was
in 1957. The place wasn’t in existence in 1957.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of George Senator?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about him, please, Mr. Paul?
Mr. PAUL. Well, he used to be a salesman, a dry goods salesman of men’s
apparel, let’s call it, shirts and so forth.
Mr. HUBERT. Wholesale?
Mr. PAUL. No; retail—maybe wholesale, I don’t know—he was working for
some firm on the road. Well, it’s Jack that made a friend of him you
know what I mean, coming up to the club. They got friendly and in the
last year I think he went into a novelty business with somebody—am I
right?
Mr. HUBERT. That’s the year 1963?
Mr. PAUL. I think so—some cars and little—different things, a lot of a
little truck, and then finally about—oh, maybe in July or August——
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; they pushed him out, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean his company did?
Mr. PAUL. It isn’t a company, they pushed him out because he wasn’t
selling anything, or he was using up the money or something to that
effect, and they pushed him out and he wasn’t doing nothing and he was
living with another man and they had an apartment and the other man got
married and he didn’t have no money, so Jack told him he could live
with him until he could get another job, but that’s George Senator.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known George?
Mr. PAUL. About 2 years.
Mr. HUBERT. And you think Ruby knew him about the same length of time?
Mr. PAUL. I think so—maybe a little longer.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he do any work around the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. Who?
Mr. HUBERT. George Senator?
Mr. PAUL. I think he used to help him out on Saturday night. I don’t
know whether he paid him or not. Now, I would like to know who told you
I get money out of the Carousel? I wish I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, I can’t answer that.
Mr. PAUL. I know, but somebody must have told you I get money out of
that. You know what I used to do—I used to count the money for him at
the end of the night because he was such a flip, you know what I mean,
he used to argue with everybody that would count the money for him, and
hold it until he went downstairs, so I gave it to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that—that’s interesting.
Mr. PAUL. Well, if I be there on Saturday night or Friday night, at the
end of the night, he would say to me, “Clear the register.” So, I would
count the money. He says, “Let the boy from the bar give you the money
and hold it until we come downstairs and I go to the car.” And that’s
how I got the money.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you would be seen counting the money?
Mr. PAUL. Yes: that’s right—that’s why I wanted to know who told you.
Mr. HUBERT. But that’s all it amounted to, just that you had counted
the money for him?
Mr. PAUL. That’s all—I would bring it downstairs—he never carried it
with him actually—I don’t know why he carried so much money the last
time. Actually, he used to throw it in the back of the car in the trunk
and he said, “That’s the place that nobody looks.”
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you have known him to go home with money in the
sack and he never put it on his person at all?
Mr. PAUL. No—in the back of the car.
Mr. HUBERT. Even when he parked his car at night he wouldn’t take it
upstairs?
Mr. PAUL. What do you mean—no; he never took it up to the house—he left
it in the car.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to know how much money he had
around like that?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, you know, I suppose, from the newspapers
and what you have heard that when he was arrested he had altogether on
his person and in the car an so forth, something in excess——
Mr. PAUL. It was in the car too, wasn’t it?
Mr. HUBERT. Some of it, yes; but to your knowledge, most of the time he
didn’t keep it on his person at all?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the gun, did he keep that on his person?
Mr. PAUL. It’s a funny thing about the gun—he would always carry it in
a bag, in a deposit bag, a money bag.