Mr. PAUL. Unless he went some place special, because he always said
somebody might want to beat him up.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by “some place special”—like what?
Mr. PAUL. Well, like if he was going out on a date or something, you
know, I mean he wouldn’t carry the bag. I mean, if he went to a show or
something, he wouldn’t carry the bag.
Mr. HUBERT. But he took his gun?
Mr. PAUL. No; he left it in the bag. The only time he would carry the
gun—the bag was if he wasn’t going to no place or he went home—if he
went to eat, he would take it with him.
Mr. HUBERT. The gun or the bag?
Mr. PAUL. The bag with the gun.
Mr. HUBERT. From his car?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But yet he would leave it outside all night?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In the car?
Mr. PAUL. In the car.
Mr. HUBERT. But let me see if I get this straight—if he was going to
eat, he would go to his car, take the money out of the trunk——
Mr. PAUL. No; the bag.
Mr. HUBERT. The bag—with the gun only?
Mr. PAUL. The gun.
Mr. HUBERT. He would leave the money there and take the bag with the
gun, and then carried the gun in that fashion?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, many times he would be driving my car, he would leave
the bag and the money on the bottom and lock the car.
Mr. HUBERT. And the gun would be in there with the bag and the money?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you say that there were occasions when he would take
the gun alone, leaving the money behind, but the gun not in a holster,
but in a bag?
Mr. PAUL. But in a bag—so everybody thought he was carrying money.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if he ever owned a holster?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him carry the gun in a pocket or tucked in
his waist?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I never did.
Mr. HUBERT. The only time you have ever seen him carry his gun was when
he carried it in a bag?
Mr. PAUL. In the bag.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Gruber that lives out in
California?
Mr. PAUL. Gruber?
Mr. HUBERT. Gruber [spelling] G-r-u-b-e-r.
Mr. PAUL. That name doesn’t sound familiar to me. I’ll tell you, Jack
had a million friends that I would never remember their names anyway.
He used to introduce me and the name just flew by.
Mr. HUBERT. What about this boy Larry Crafard or Curtis Laverne
Crafard, as he was called—do you know anything about him, that young
man that was around the club for the last month or so?
Mr. PAUL. I think he was cleaning up the place every day and used to
sleep there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him?
Mr. PAUL. Jack brought up so many—no; I never did talk to him, but I
never talked to those people myself that Jack used to pick up in the
street and bring them up to work and do something, and in a couple of
weeks they disappeared.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was not a peculiar thing at all for Jack
to bring in someone?
Mr. PAUL. Take them home to sleep—a man that hasn’t got a place to
live. I used to say to Jack, “Suppose he robs you?” He says, “So, he
robs me.”
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Louis McWillie?
Mr. PAUL. McWillie? I knew him a long time ago. I think he is in—not
Vegas—what is the other place?
Mr. HUBERT. Vegas is right.
Mr. PAUL. Vegas—is he?
Mr. HUBERT. Tell me what you know about him, was he ever in Dallas?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; sure, he was in Dallas a long time.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his business when he was here?
Mr. PAUL. When he come—he used to go to golf places and bet on golf.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about golf tournaments and golf games?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, wasn’t he a gambler in general—all
sorts of gambling?
Mr. PAUL. I think so—I never had any dealings with him either.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of Ruby’s dealings with him?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, do you know that sometime in 1959, probably
around September or Labor Day, Jack went down to Havana, Cuba?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And stayed with McWillie?
Mr. PAUL. Well, McWillie sent him the carfare—McWillie was running the
gambling house down there for the—I don’t know what it was—Batista or
some of their people—somebody else down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know and how you found out about it?
Mr. PAUL. Well, Jack told me.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you?
Mr. PAUL. He told me he sent him money to come down there for a
vacation.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack supposed to work or was it just a vacation?
Mr. PAUL. Just a vacation.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any reason why, or did Jack tell you any
reason why, McWillie would be interested in financing a vacation for
Jack?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know, but I think Jack was a close friend of his.
Actually, he thought the whole world was built around McWillie.
Actually—and I never could see it, and I never used to go out with him
when McWillie was around.
Mr. HUBERT. You disliked McWillie?
Mr. PAUL. No: but I didn’t care too much for his personality.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever express yourself in that way to Ruby?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his answer?
Mr. PAUL. Well, he told me—that he thinks he is a great guy—Jack says.
Well, actually, I for one never meet too many friends with Jack, and
Jack made everybody a friend and I haven’t got too many friends. I
just work to make a living. I’m not interested in a whole lot of other
things.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you are saying is that Jack was a man
who made a lot of friends?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were one of his friends?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had fewer friends than he did?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you considered yourself one of his best friends?
Mr. PAUL. Yes—Jack’s best friend.
Mr. HUBERT. Both ways?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how long he stayed in Havana?
Mr. PAUL. A week or 10 days.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he went to Miami at that time or New
Orleans?
Mr. PAUL. I think he stopped in Miami and went from Miami to Cuba and
he came back to Miami. I think he had to do that anyway—it wasn’t a
straight flight.
Mr. HUBERT. But I take it that you are assuming that it was not—what I
wanted to get at was whether Jack had ever told you—that’s the way you
would know.
Mr. PAUL. I’m telling you that he did.
Mr. HUBERT. That he told you that he went from here to Miami?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And from Miami down to Havana?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And on the route back, he came back through Miami?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I think that’s what he told me.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any other trips that he has taken?
Mr. PAUL. The only time when I was at the Vegas Club, he went to—what
are those Springs over there—Hot Springs—I think 2 weekends in a row.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any other travels that he might have made?
Mr. PAUL. He went to New York.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mr. PAUL. Last year to see the AGVA president.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in regard to the trouble he was having with the
Weinsteins?
Mr. PAUL. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that was in August, was it not?
Mr. PAUL. No; it was earlier than August, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of his trip to New Orleans last year?
Mr. PAUL. Yes—he went to—somebody told him about this strip down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Bourbon Street?
Mr. PAUL. Bourbon Street and he went down to catch her act.
Mr. HUBERT. He went for what purpose?
Mr. PAUL. To catch her act—to catch the girl’s act, so he could book
her.
Mr. HUBERT. He wanted to look at the girl’s act to see if he could get
any talent to come up here?
Mr. PAUL. The reason why—she asked for a lot of money.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?