Mr. LITCHFIELD. In September—I’m pretty sure it was, about the latter
part of August or the first of September.
Mr. HUBERT. And you met her by simply being introduced to her by Sands
at a bowling alley?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; he told me she had planned on putting in a lounge
and Bob had given her my phone number and she called me on the pretext
that I might build it and run it for her.
Mr. HUBERT. So you went to see her then?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went to her house?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; on Swiss.
Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen her before?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Never before that—she said she had seen me, but there
was no recollection or no introduction prior to that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened to the negotiations that you engaged in
with her?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. It would be that I would have had to divorce my wife
and had to have married her for any other further business to have been
transacted.
Mr. HUBERT. If I’m not mistaken, isn’t she an older woman than you are
a man?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe she is—she’s 30-something or 40-something.
Mr. HUBERT. And you are saying to us that she made it a condition?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. It wasn’t a verbal condition—it was a obvious
condition. It was a situation that was arising, let’s say that.
Mr. HUBERT. And you perceived that you would have to marry her if this
thing was to go forward?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. That, or divorce my wife.
Mr. HUBERT. But she did not say so?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You think she intimated it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Let’s say, from my past experience and knowledge
of—worldly knowledge—I would assume this, that’s being kind of tactful.
Mr. HUBERT. I was wondering if you could point to any events, since you
can’t point to any words that gave you that impression?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Without being too personal or intimate on my own
actions or any actions other than hers, no; and I don’t care to be.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Did you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I knew Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Jack used to own the Vegas Club and I used to go there
quite a bit.
Mr. HUBERT. How do—how long do you suppose it is that you have known
Jack?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, I would say from 1959—October, roughly.
Mr. HUBERT. Continuously?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I will go in and say “hello” to him, see him
whenever I would go in. It wasn’t a friendship relation that I would go
out of my way to call him or see him or that he would call me. He had
no way of knowing how to call me. He knew me when he saw me and said,
“Hello, how are you?”
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Carousel Club, did you visit it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I have been in that place twice.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us when that was?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I was associated with Bertha and she was thinking
of putting in a business, we looked at a whole bunch of clubs she
thought were for sale, and I knew the Vegas Club was not making any
money and I would have liked to have tried to buy it from Jack, so one
night I went down to see him—I had called and he said he would be there
about 10:30 or 11 and he got there about 11:15 or 11:30, something like
that, and I discussed the purchase of the Vegas Club and that’s when he
told me it had, I think, $40,000 worth of Federal liens or something
against it which still had it, and he tried to sell me the Carousel and
I wouldn’t attempt to put in a private club in downtown Dallas; I was
thinking of making the Vegas a private club by remodeling it.
Mr. HUBERT. But what you wanted to put in was a private club, not an
open or public club like the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. That’s right—a private club.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was your opinion that the Carousel was not the
proper place for a private club?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right—any downtown location. You see, I cannot obtain
an open—let’s say a beer license because of my record with the city
of Dallas, but I can obtain a private club license from the State of
Texas, even though I have a record. I talked to Buddy Mills on the
liquor board and he said, “If you haven’t done anything in 3 to 5
years—no conviction or anything,” you can.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you were in the Carousel and you
were there with Cheek?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I was not. I was alone. That was the second time I
had been in there. I had been in there one other time—I just went in to
see what it was—I didn’t speak to anybody at all that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us the date of the second time that you did
speak to him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think right around the middle of October—the second
week or the third week, somewhere along in there—the exact date—no; I
cannot.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that at the time—or you said once before
in your statement—at the time you were there there were some people
taking pictures of the club?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. There were some fellows—you see, when I walked in Jack
wasn’t there and I told the doorman, whom I found out later was his
roommate—I don’t remember the man’s name, that I was to see Jack on
business and he said he wasn’t there, and so I sat down and had some
coffee and watched the bumps and what have you, and after Jack came in,
then he had to see two or three people before me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you happen to mention to the doorman or anybody else
around there that you were from California?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You did so?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you tell that to, do you remember?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. The doorman and some other fellow that was sitting
there. He asked me where I was from and I said, “California and
Phoenix”—is all I said. I didn’t think it was any of his business who I
was.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the other man, other than the
doorman to whom you said that?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—he was a little short fellow, I would say late
forties or maybe even middle fifties. If I remember right he had kind
of a silver hairline—I don’t remember—whether he was kind of bald in
the center or not, I know it was receding, and he had an appearance of
being of Jewish descent.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you might recognize his name?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I doubt it, because when he was introduced to me I
didn’t pay that much attention to it—no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who introduced you?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. The doorman. They were sitting there together drinking
a Seven-Up or a Sprite.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, so, you just stayed and waited for Jack?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you have to wait?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think—30 or 45 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Jack came in?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. The dog first, then him.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, did he see you right away?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he walked by me because I was sitting right by the
door and he turned and said something to the doorman first and then I
think he went on back and put his hat up and came back to the doorman,
and that’s when the doorman pointed me out—he walked over and said—just
a moment—he had two or three other fellows to see him—I was sitting by
the door—have you ever been in the Carousel?
Mr. HUBERT. No, sir.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I was sitting by the door like this, as you are
walking in you have to turn left. There is an aisle and there was a
fellow sitting back here by the pole with the light switches on it
and there was a fellow sitting in front of me, and then there was
the photographer who was there. I didn’t meet the photographer until
after I had been introduced to Jack and Jack introduced me to him—some
magazine for strippers like Male or Stag type magazine and he was
taking pictures and he had to get releases from the strippers—some
kind of a release they would have to sign so that he could take their
pictures.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw him getting the releases from the people?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I saw how he came in and he had the releases in
his hand. He said he had to get all of the girls to sign them and he
said all of them would sign them except one.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was when you were talking to Jack in his office?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. In his office.
Mr. HUBERT. The photographer came in and said that he had some papers
in his hand which you understood to be releases?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he said he had the releases and had to go out and
get them signed, and then he came back again and said all except one
was signed.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was on that occasion that you talked to Jack about
buying the Vegas?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he counteroffered by suggesting that you buy the
Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand that that was the last time you saw Jack
that night?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. It was until I saw him on television—I happened to be
playing poker then.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix the time of that occasion with reference to
particularly the death of the President, about how long before?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, like I said, it was probably the middle of
October.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was about a month and a little bit before
the death of the President?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. He was killed the last half of November—maybe 5 weeks
or 6 weeks—it was about the middle of October.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have previously stated that you saw a man in
there on this occasion who you thought was Oswald?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did—in fact, I made the statement, as I was saying a
while ago, when I was playing poker—a bunch of fellows from the bowling
alley—we usually play on Saturday night. We started about 9:30 and
the game continued all through the night—one of those $2 limit games
and we were still playing Sunday, and the fellow’s wife had carried
the children to church and come back and said something about Ruby
had shot Oswald on television. No, excuse me, “Had shot him.” She had
heard it on the radio, and so we turned on the television and they were
rerunning all of this and a big hullabaloo over it and that was the
next time I saw Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. And did you make any comment at that time that you had seen
Oswald in the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I had seen Oswald on television before. I said, “That
guy looks familiar,” and a few of the fellows were around, and I don’t
remember where I said it there at the poker game, but somebody said,
“I think I’ve seen that Oswald around somewhere,” and I made the
statement, “Yes, I think I have seen him too,” and that was the extent
of it. Nothing more was said.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that statement you made that you had seen Oswald around
somewhere, was it made before Oswald was shot?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you repeat it thereafter?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did to a friend of mine who is on the vice squad here
in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. And what is his name?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Donald Green.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you tell him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, it was the day preceding the day that I went
down—I think I went down on a Monday to the police station to talk
to the FBI agents and everybody, so I must have talked to Don on the
Sunday night preceding that or on Saturday. I called him on the phone
and I told him, “I think I have seen that man with Jack up at the
Carousel.” I said, “I don’t know, but I’m pretty darn sure I have.” And
he made some calls and called me back and said the police department
right now wants to talk to me, and he met me—I believe it was Monday,
I’m pretty sure it was a Monday, he met me Monday morning about 9:15
or 9:30 at the coffee shop of the Statler and we walked on up to the
police station.
Mr. HUBERT. And you made a statement of that?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And subsequently that same day you made a statement to the
FBI?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Two FBI agents.
Mr. HUBERT. I think they asked you to take a polygraph test too?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. And the tests showed that I hadn’t seen him because
when the man giving it asked me, “Have you definitely seen him,” and I
said, “Yes,” and it showed that I hadn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he told you the results of the test?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he didn’t tell me the results of the test, but
Donald did—he didn’t tell me—he didn’t come right out and say, “No,”
but it was obvious. They had me pick Oswald’s picture out of a bunch
of police photographs, and anybody on the street could pick that man’s
picture out. That doesn’t mean I have seen him—I told them that—I said,
“Heck, anybody walking can pick his picture out.”
Mr. HUBERT. And you had observed to someone prior to the shooting of
Oswald that you thought you had seen Oswald somewhere?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were the people that you were—that you observed that to?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Let me understand your question—whom did I say this to?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I mentioned it like I said, there at the poker game.
Mr. HUBERT. This was the same poker game that went on into Sunday the
24th?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Was that the day that Oswald was killed?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—that would be it. From Saturday the 23d to Sunday
the 24th—I made it then, and—
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make it after Oswald was shot at that same poker
game?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. That’s when I made it. We was watching it on
television—the rerun of it.
Mr. HUBERT. I had understood you to say that you had said you thought
you had seen Oswald somewhere, and that you made that statement prior
to the time that Oswald was shot?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I made it once but like I said, I don’t remember who I
made it to.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not at the poker game?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—the statement at the poker game—we were watching it
on television and it showed everything there and someone says, “I think
I’ve seen that fellow,” and I said, “Yes; I think I’ve seen him too.”
That was the second time I had said it—before when his picture came out
and everything, I said, “I think I have seen him,” but I don’t remember
where I was when I said it.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did your poker game begin?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, Saturday night about 9 or 9:30.