Mr. LITCHFIELD. Into Sunday and until about 6:30.
Mr. HUBERT. In the afternoon?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that the first time you made the observation that you
thought you had seen Oswald somewhere must have been before the poker
game began?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—it was.
Mr. HUBERT. So that would be before 9 o’clock on Saturday?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—it was. It was right after the assassination—they
were showing all the films and the capture of Oswald, etc., and when I
was watching television, I don’t remember where I was, I said, “I think
I’ve seen him.” And people sitting around me said, “He looks familiar,”
and I made the statement, “I think I have seen him.”
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when Oswald was shot and you made the statement again
that you had thought you had seen Oswald, did you say anything that
would indicate that you had seen him, Oswald, at Ruby’s place?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I just said, “I think I’ve seen him too,” I forgot
who it was I said that to, but the guy said. “I think I have seen him
or I think I know that guy,” and I just said, “Yes; I think I have seen
him, too.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that—then that it might have been that
you had seen him at Ruby’s place?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I started trying to remember—everybody was sitting
around and saying, “Where have you seen him?” Trying to think, and I
thought about it and I remembered seeing a man similar to him, very
similar to him at the Carousel that night I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to anybody?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Just Don Green when I called him on the phone and then
when I went down to the police department.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to any of the people you were playing
poker with?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us the names of the people you were playing
poker with, whose house was it at, first?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. J. W. Grubbs [spelling] G-r-u-b-b-s.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Boy, I can’t tell you that—I can tell you how to go
there, but I don’t remember what street it is. You go out Beckley past
the A. Harris shopping center—I don’t remember the name of the street,
you turn left and then you went down a couple of blocks and you turn
left again—there were three cars of us and I followed. I don’t remember
the name of the street.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us the names of some of the other people at
the poker game?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. J. W. Grubbs and there was Ernie Stoy [spelling]
E-r-n-i-e and S-t-o-y, and one fellow I just met, he just came in—I
didn’t know, and another fellow, gee, I sure wish I could remember his
name. I know him when I see him—they are always at the bowling alley,
he usually bets on the pot games, and he is a big heavy set black
headed fellow and Max Lewis was there.
Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling.] L-e-w-i-s?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes [spelling], L-e-w-i-s, and I think there was one
more—I don’t remember who that was.
Mr. HUBERT. They were all there throughout the game—were they all there
throughout the game?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Max left Sunday morning and then returned.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time it became known that Ruby had shot Oswald,
did you observe to anyone that you knew Ruby?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe I did. I think everybody was saying whether
they knew him or not and I believe I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone else there know him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think one or two others might have said that they
knew him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Grubbs knew him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Who said they knew him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I could assume, but I don’t remember who said that they
knew him.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you did not at that time say that you thought
you had seen Oswald in the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I just said that—you are getting mixed up. I
said—when it became obvious that Ruby had shot him, we were watching
it on television, and we were, you know, how you are talking, “I think
I know him,” and I said, “I’m pretty sure I know Jack Ruby,” and I
said, “What is that idiot doing now?” Or something like that, and I
forgot that someone said, “That Oswald, I think I’ve seen him somewhere
before,” and that’s when I said it.
Mr. HUBERT. You said the same thing, “I think I’ve seen him?”
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was it you began to associate Oswald as a man that
you had seen somewhere before—and as also the man you had seen in Jack
Ruby’s club the last time you were there?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe it was that day—not that I was associating
necessarily it with Ruby—it was that everybody all of a sudden had seen
him and they were trying to think where they had seen him and I was
trying to remember where I had seen him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, my point is that you ultimately came to tell Jack
Green——
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Don Green.
Mr. HUBERT. Don Green, that you thought you had seen him at the
Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. When did that firm up in your mind, because from what I
gather it was not firmed in your mind where you had seen him, on the
Sunday when you were playing poker, isn’t that right?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Correct. I wasn’t positive then, no, where I had seen
him.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you become positive that you had seen him at the
Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I was thinking about it during the week, on
Thursday or Friday, and it dawned on me that that looked like the
fellow that I had seen in the Carousel.
There was another fellow up there that I had never seen before and made
a heck of an impression on me—he was about twice my size, a real flashy
dresser, white on white shirt and his suit was a very flashy type,
and he had just gotten married, but he, himself, made a heck of an
impression on me, the way he was dressed and his size, and this fellow
that I had seen in the Carousel made a heck of an impression on me the
way he was dressed—he was dressed sloppy—in a sloppy shirt and kind
of a gray khaki-type pants. I thought, “What is this idiot doing up
here?” You know, because it is known that the Carousel is a clip joint
and you’ve got to be an idiot to go in there in the first place, or a
tourist, one of the two, and I just ran—I guess you would just say that
it came into my mind that that looked like the fellow I had seen. I was
associating the sloppy dress with him because he was dressed sloppy on
television and when you see it repeatedly and repeatedly—you remember
it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you think the man might have been Oswald that
you saw in the Carousel was dressed on the occasion you saw him, which
was the last time you saw Ruby?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. He had on a white sweater and kind of a T-shirt-type
sweater, and a pair of, I guess they were gray khakis or they might
have been gabardine, there was no crease in them and they were real
sloppy and his hair wasn’t combed, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t talk to him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, I didn’t talk to anybody while I was there other
than Jack and I did meet that photographer—I don’t remember his name.
Jack introduced me, and I did meet that great big guy. He came back
into the office—he did once while I was in there with Jack and he
had just gotten married to some girl from Galveston and they were
celebrating their honeymoon and I was thinking, “You’ve got to be a nut
to come to a place like this to celebrate a honeymoon.”
Mr. HUBERT. When you came out of Jack’s office, did you see this man
that you think might be Oswald in there still?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. When you come out of his office, you can’t see
nothing—you walk down the hall and turn left and then you are back in
the club part of it—the Carousel.
Now, when I came back in the club part, the man that I thought was
Oswald had already seen Jack—I was the last one to see him—I don’t
think there were more than two or three people left in the club—this
big heavy-set fellow and his wife were still there.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this man you thought was Oswald was waiting
to see Jack?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was ahead of you?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had an opportunity to observe him then as the man
who got to see Jack before you did?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there before you got there?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And was sitting down at the table?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he drinking something?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I don’t remember if he had something or not. He was in
front of me and all I could see was his back at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever get a look at his face?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. When he left he had to walk right by me. The door is
not more than—it’s one of these partition-type doors and it is not
more than 5 feet or 4 feet wide, and the table I was sitting at—I was
sitting at the edge of the door. I couldn’t help but see him when he
walked along there.
Mr. HUBERT. How long was he in with Jack?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No more than 10 or 15 or 20 minutes, maybe, at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. And when he came out you went in Jack’s office?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; you see, Jack’s office is back, in the back and you
got to walk down two halls and Jack came out and got me. This fellow
came out and then Jack came out and got me and I went back there with
him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe what this fellow you thought might be
Oswald did at that time?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. He went on out the door.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; not until I saw him on television—and I thought it
was the same one.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that impression got firmer and firmer in your mind, as
I gather it, as the week went on?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. After that Sunday television seeing Jack shoot him
there; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But when you told Don Green your impression, it was not the
same day, was it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; it was a week later.
Mr. HUBERT. It was actually the Sunday later?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe it was Saturday or Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. And the impression began to grow on you more and more that
it might well be the same man?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And as a matter of fact, as I understand you, it grew so
much that you thought you should tell someone about it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I called Don and asked him what he thought I should do.
Mr. HUBERT. And he suggested coming to the office and I think you have
told us about that.
Was there another man around there you heard had come from California?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. There was somebody waiting to see Jack, like I said,
that was sitting—there was a aisle going straight and you got to turn
left—back by the pole where the light switches are, and he was waiting
to see him and I believe he said he was from California and he was in
his middle thirties, a black-headed fellow. I never met the man and he
saw Jack and he was still there when I left.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. This fellow we are speaking of now.
Mr. HUBERT. From California, you mean?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think he said he was from California. I think when I
came in the doorman said, “Well, there are two other people here and
the photographer to see him ahead of you,” when I first came in, and he
said, “He’s late now, but you can have a seat and wait if you want to.”
And the two other people were the fellow whom I assumed that looked
like this Oswald, and this fellow, I believe that said he was from
California and the photographer—were the three people in front of me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the man who said he was from California talk to
the man you think was Oswald?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen Oswald before?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; never had.
Mr. HUBERT. You were shown pictures of Oswald, is that right?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was shown a police photograph of him, front and side
view, with three others.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your impression at that time as to whether Oswald
was the man you had seen in the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I wasn’t asked my impression at that time—all I was
asked is, “Pick out Oswald,” and I said, “There he is, anybody walking
in Dallas could do it.”
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose in having you pick out Oswald?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I would imagine the police department wanted to know if
I really knew him or really had seen someone like him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, when you picked out Oswald, were you simply picking
out Oswald because you had seen his picture on television, or were you
picking him out because he was the man you thought you had seen in the
Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I picked out his picture, I was picking it out
because I had seen it on television so many times.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the police wouldn’t ask you to pick out Oswald’s
picture unless there was some reason for your specific identification
of Oswald.