You have made your first correction of the name of your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the first page of this Exhibit 5226?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, are there any other changes?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, the date of our wedding instead of the 16th of June
was the 22d of June.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are correcting that in the same fashion that you made
of the other correction?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. The fact he stated here almost every hour Ruby was
asking about calls. Called between one and three times a day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s make a correction on there, then, if this is
agreeable to you the sentence reads, “other than that Ruby would
telephone I call, I contact him almost every hour for any calls.”
After the word “contact him” why don’t you cross out the remainder of
the sentence and then make a correction in your handwriting.
Mr. CRAFARD. “almost every hour.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are crossing out “almost every hour” and you are going
to write something in there.
He has written on here “one or two times” but he spelled day “b-a-y”
and he has put his initials CLC with the date 4-10-64. He has crossed
out the words “almost every hour.”
Are there any other additions or corrections?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were a couple of small minor changes in
there. This about Ruby kept the revolver when he had money. There was
only one occasion when he would take the revolver from the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Well, we will have to change that, then.
Mr. CRAFARD. With this, I can go back and name the one MC I have
mentioned and I couldn’t think of his name, Bill Norman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have referred to this sentence: “He
said that when transporting money Ruby kept his money in the trunk with
the revolver and always kept the revolver with him when moving money.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to cross out everything after the phrase
“with the revolver”?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you want to add anything, state something to the
effect that, as you have just told me that on one occasion you recall
him having the revolver with him.
Mr. CRAFARD. On one occasion I know of him having the revolver with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the correction you have made on the paper.
Let me ask you a few questions here, Larry.
Is the one occasion that you are referring to the time when he asked
you to go down and get the revolver for him, or are you talking about
another occasion?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was one other occasion when he brought the revolver
into the club and it stayed there all evening, when he stayed in the
club, and when he left he took the revolver with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was about a week and a half before the
assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember that episode?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was trying to remember as much as I can about it, and I
remember taking the revolver to him helped me remember the fact that he
had it on one occasion with him in the club before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that he did or said which gave you any
indication of why he had the revolver with him in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I believe he had money in the same sack with the
revolver, and he just brought it in all together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe in the club at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; but he didn’t use it very often. I believe he had it.
I believe he had it at that time; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified before that it was Jack’s practice either at
the end of every business day or the next day to pick the money up and
take it away from the club.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On how many occasions would you say you were present when
Jack, when you saw Jack take money away from the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say almost every time that he took money from the
club I was present.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And on any of these occasions other than the one you have
just described, do you recall his having a gun on his person?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him take the money and actually put it in
his car?
Mr. CRAFARD. On several occasions, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would he put the money in his car?
Mr. CRAFARD. In the trunk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a position where you could observe him put the
money into the trunk?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you observe him take anything out of the trunk on
those occasions?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a position so you could have seen him if he
took a gun out of the trunk and carried it with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I was usually right beside him placing something in
the car, myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you then on these occasions accompany Jack any place?
Mr. CRAFARD. Once or twice, but usually just put stuff in the car for
him and went back upstairs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you would leave Jack on any of these occasions,
did he have other people with him, who drove off with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. One or two times; yes. A couple of times he had Mr. Ralph
Paul with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many occasions would you say you went down with
him to the car when he carried money down, put the money in the trunk,
and Jack drove off then alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say most of the time when I went down with him he
drove off alone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us what your best estimate is of the number
of times this would have been when he drove off alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say about eight or nine times that I am definite.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times a day did you have occasion to go into the
trunk of Jack’s automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe it would be 2 or 3 days I wouldn’t go near his
automobile, and there might be a day when I would go get something out
of the trunk of his car two or three different times during the day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On occasions when you went down to the trunk of his car
was Jack carrying money around in the trunk of his car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He most always had money in the trunk of his car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know this?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had told me so on several occasions, and on several
occasions I was with him when he placed money in his car when I went
upstairs and then he would send me down after something out of the
trunk of his car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell whether, after Jack would carry the
daily receipts down to the car if he would continue to carry money in
his car, in the trunk of his car, or whether he would take the money
out so that the next day when he would come back and pick up the next
day’s receipts the trunk was empty so far as money was concerned?
Mr. CRAFARD. He carried the money for the receipts for a week at a time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On these occasions when he carried the money for a week at
a time, do you ever recall him going into the trunk and putting the gun
in his pocket as he was driving off?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. Only one time that I can recall a gun being in the
car, I was in the car with Jack, I believe it was the second night I
was at the Vegas Club, he brought the money sack in and the money sack
that the gun was in, was in the main money sack, and we put it in the
front seat of the car between us, right by my side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Jack’s practice to keep a key to the trunk of the
car any place in the automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. Other than on his key ring, I wouldn’t know of any keys.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many occasions did you have to go down to Jack’s
automobile by yourself and open the trunk of the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, I would say between 15 or 20 or 25 times while I was
with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And on each of these occasions did you have to get a key
to open the trunk?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack would give me the key, he would give me his key ring
with the key on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there ever any occasions when Jack left the trunk
unlocked that you recall?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. The trunk on his car was the type that you have got to
unlock it to open it, and when you close it it automatically locks, and
you remove the key and it automatically locks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have a regular parking space for his car near the
Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; in the parking garage right downstairs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen where he parked his car at his home?
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw the parking lot. I don’t know whether he used the
same space all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it an open parking lot?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Jack had any sort of a safe in this
apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is, you don’t know.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask
along this line?
Mr. HUBERT. You were talking about the trunk and the money and all
that. Did you get into the record about where the gun was?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe we did, but why don’t you ask the questions?
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t clear to me, perhaps I didn’t catch it, as to
whether or not Jack kept the gun in the trunk of the car or on his
person.
Mr. CRAFARD. In the trunk of the car, he kept it in a money sack in the
trunk of the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe your testimony was that, so that Mr. Hubert
can be brought up to date, that you only ever saw him carry the gun
on his person on two occasions, one of those occasions being when you
brought the gun up to him at the club in connection with some sort of
an argument that he had, and the other one was when he brought it in a
money bag on one occasion.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that your testimony a few moments ago concerning the
money and how you saw him put money in there, sometimes you carried
it down, or at least saw it there, is that when there was money there
there was a gun with the money, usually in a sack with the money?
Mr. CRAFARD. The money was usually in a different, separate sack from
the gun, but at times he would take the sacks, on these two occasions
that I know of, he took the sack the money was in, the sack the gun was
in and put them all in a larger sack.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him to own a holster?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. To hold a gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. On the two occasions that he did have the gun on his
person, how did he have it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was inside of a money sack, and he carried it in his
hands, the money sack wrapped around the gun and laying in his hand.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the two occasions that you say he had it on his
person?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You never saw him put it in his pocket or his waistbelt?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever heard from Jack or Andy Armstrong or anybody
else that Jack had ever been robbed or burglarized?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Continuing on with your copy of the FBI interview report,
are there any other corrections or additions or changes that you would
make?
Mr. CRAFARD. One addition I would like to make to my testimony of the
fact that when Ruby first came to the club on the day that President
Kennedy was killed, and before he left he called the paper and placed
an ad to the effect that we would be closed, from the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are reading this out of what is page 150?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of your interview report?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to read this interview report, and
does this refresh your recollection?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. After reading it yesterday evening, and thinking
about the whole thing yesterday, last night at the hotel, I have
refreshed my memory to some extent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After having refreshed your recollection with this report,
are you able to state how soon after Ruby came into the club he told
Andy Armstrong to notify the personnel?
Mr. CRAFARD. It wasn’t more than about a half hour or 45 minutes after
he came into the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he didn’t do it right away?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You people sat around for awhile?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss as you were sitting there the question of
closing the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe we did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember how Jack came to give these instructions
to Andy?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after Andy began to call the personnel do you
remember Jack calling the newspapers and changing the ad?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just shortly after Andy started calling
personnel and Jack went in and used the pay phone and said something
about calling the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You recall if up to that time Jack had received a
telephone call from any newspaper person asking him if his clubs were
going to be open?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other additions or changes or corrections
that you would make in this interview report in your testimony as a
result of having read the interview report?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe yesterday I was talking about the financial
setup of the club. I believe I said it was fairly good. I would say
that this portion of my statement here referring to the financial setup
was gained from the fact that Jack was always complaining about going
broke, and a portion in my testimony the other day about the financial
position of the club was my own opinion.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are referring to page 150 of the interview report?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And as I understand what you are saying in here was that
when you told the FBI that the club couldn’t financially stand to be
closed, you were making that statement on the basis of what Jack had
said?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But your own personal opinion was?
Mr. CRAFARD. That the club was making enough money to hold its own,
even on a closure of 2 or 3 or maybe 4 days.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to make a change on page 150 so that—well,
maybe we shouldn’t make this change. There is no question in your mind
but that the FBI interview states, is an accurate reporting of what you
said at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; there is no question.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, passing on to page 151, is there anything there that
you would change?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact here that Ruby said he was going to his sister
at that time. I don’t believe he at that time mentioned where he was
going. When he returned later in the evening he mentioned where he was
going.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the language at the top of page 151
which says, “Ruby said that he was going to his sister’s home and asked
Crafard if he desired to accompany him, which offer was refused”?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe there was a time element setup there where
they haven’t included in this testimony here of the fact that the early
portion of this was about the financial setup, about calling the paper
was at one time, and when he said something about going to his sister
was later in the afternoon.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Continuing on page 151, are there any other additions or
corrections or changes you would make?
Mr. CRAFARD. The second paragraph on page 151, the second complete
paragraph where it starts, “Ruby then came back to the club or called
Crafard about 7:30 p.m., that evening.” I would like to strike out or
called about 7:30 p.m., in the evening. The fact he had come back to
the club is something I have established yesterday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. But you did at that time you talked to the FBI,
you weren’t sure whether he came back or called?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how about the time—7:30 p.m., as you think back about
that now?