Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that an accurate time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. I believe it was a supposed time,
approximate time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But is that your best recollection of the time, or would
you now alter your estimate of what time it was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that I said yesterday it was about 6 or 6:30
when he came back to the club, I am not sure. I would say between 6:30
and 7:30 would be about the best estimate I might give on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you make that estimate?
Mr. CRAFARD. If I remember right, 8 o’clock I was sitting in the
drugstore eating lunch, approximately 8 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you recall being at the drugstore at 8 o’clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. The one girl that works over there goes off at 8 o’clock
and she left while I was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, actually, you got to the drugstore some time before 8
o’clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And by that time Jack Ruby had already returned to the
club and asked you to accompany him to Eva Grant’s?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack mention to you at that time anything about going
to the synagogue?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can remember. On the third paragraph on
page 151, I believe yesterday I gave an earlier time for this same
event of Jack calling me at the club on the morning of November 23.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the language you are referring to is on Saturday
morning, November 23, at about 5:30 a.m., Ruby called him and told him
to meet him downstairs with the Polaroid camera and some film.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe yesterday that the time I gave was about 2
hours earlier than this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best recollection now as to the time? Was
your memory more accurate at the time you told the FBI about this
episode or is it more accurate now after having spent 2 days discussing
the matter?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe in the trial in Texas it came out pretty well to
where it just about had to be between 4:30 and 5 when he called.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Mr. CRAFARD. At the trial, there was quite a bit of questioning on this
effect.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. And I believe the different times that some of the
previous witnesses had given the lawyer, and I come to the agreement it
must have been about between 4:30 and 5 o’clock that he called me.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your best recollection now? That is what we want to
get.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s disregard what other people have told you to suggest
what the time is, and try to think about your own activities. As I
recall, you testified that you talked for 2 or 3 hours with a girl on
the telephone.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then you read for a while, and then you apparently
started to doze off, to go to sleep.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the other time, the time element I used
yesterday would be more of a correct time than this.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us just your recollection right now today.
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say between about 3:30 and 4:30.
In the same paragraph further down, closer towards the bottom. “When he
got to the car, George, Ruby’s roommate, was also there and they drove
out on the Stemmons Freeway.” I believe in this testimony here the
Stemmons Freeway was more of a suggested name to me than anything else.
I would like to clearly state I am definitely not positive of that sign.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified also yesterday that it was the
Central Expressway.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I believe it was on the Central Expressway.
Referring to page 152 of this testimony, and back to previous
testimony, I have made here concerning the mention of the name of Lee
Harvey Oswald, I believe that this would be about the first time that
we used the name of Oswald, was used very much among us. Previous to
this, I don’t believe there was any reference made to this person by
name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Starting on page 151?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With the sentence, “He also recalled that while being at
the waffle shop on Commerce Street, Ruby was reading about Lee Harvey
Oswald in a newspaper.”
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long a time would you say you spent at the waffle shop?
Mr. CRAFARD. Twenty or twenty-five minutes, maybe a half hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time it was when you were at the waffle
shop?
Mr. CRAFARD. Right around six in the morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you spend at the Earl Warren sign
photographing that sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not more than 20 minutes at the most.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think it might have been as long as 20 minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend some time in the car talking about the sign
before you got out to photograph it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I believe we got out of the car immediately when we
pulled over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it take you 15 or 20 minutes to photograph the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did it take so long?
Mr. CRAFARD. Trying to get the right angle on the sign where I could
get the clearest picture of the words of the sign.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to walk across the street to photograph the
sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby get out of the car with you at the time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; all three of us, Ruby, Senator and myself got out of
the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Going over onto page 152, are there any additions or
corrections which you would make?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; that is about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you some specific questions about that. I
have made some notes myself.
On the bottom of page 148 of the FBI interview, which is Exhibit 5226,
the FBI reports this language, “However, Andy Armstrong or Alexander,
the assistant manager and bartender would handle the money until
midnight.”
Did you ever know Andy Armstrong by the name of Alexander?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I couldn’t recall exactly what his last name was. At
that time I believe my recollection was that it was either Armstrong or
Alexander but I wasn’t positive just exactly what his last name was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In this interview as reported on page 147 of Exhibit 5226,
you state that “After completing this job Ruby asked him to stay at the
club and work for room and board.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He had the room in front of Ruby’s office? This would be
approximately November 1, 1963?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you have testified previously here that you
thought you worked for Ruby for 6 weeks to 2 months.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But, of course, if you went to work for him on November
1 you would have only worked for him about 3 weeks. Now, which is the
more accurate recollection?
Mr. CRAFARD. My dates are mixed up on that. I am not positive of the
date of the Dallas, Texas State Fair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work at the State Fair until the State Fair closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought I understood your testimony on Wednesday to be
that the second show that you worked for there, the one with the band——
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Closed a few days before the State Fair actually closed.
Mr. CRAFARD. It closed the day before the State Fair actually closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to work at the State Fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at the State Fair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the way to accurately date when you began to work
for Ruby would be in terms of when the State Fair closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be starting the day after the Dallas, Tex., State
Fair closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the State Fair last?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two weeks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the show, How Hollywood Makes Movies lasted about
1 week?
Mr. CRAFARD. Right at that; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the band show lasted about another week?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 149, the FBI reports you as indicating, and I am
quoting, “He said that one night approximately November 14 or 15, 1963,
Ruby was having trouble with an MC Earl Norman at the Carousel and
about 1:30 a.m., he, Ruby, sent Crafard out to the car to get the gun.”
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe in testimony yesterday I stated that I couldn’t
remember exactly who he had the trouble with, and I am right now not
clear after thinking all night, I am not clear in my mind as to the
fact that it was Earl Norman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your memory accurate at the time you talked with the
FBI?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure, though, that the reason Ruby went to get the
gun was because he was having trouble with the M.C.?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; that is what I say. I am not positive of the fact who
it was he was having trouble with.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that Ruby went to get the gun because he was
having trouble with somebody?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he had had some trouble with somebody and he had sent
me to get the gun.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You stated that the gun was believed to be the property of
Howard?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Negro employee, and I am reading that from page 149.
Is it still your understanding that that gun was Howard’s gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Shortly after I went to work for Jack he told me or Howard told me that
when he first went to work for Jack he had three or four different
guns and he had permits for his pistols, and on a couple of occasions
the law forces confiscated his pistols and later returned them, and he
was afraid this might happen again and he wouldn’t get this particular
pistol back so Jack asked him if he could borrow the gun and he told
Jack yes; he could use the gun as long as he wanted.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever say anything to you which indicated that the
gun was not Jack Ruby’s gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Howard about the gun that Jack Ruby had at
any time after you went down to the car on the 14th or 15th of November
to bring the gun up to Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk specifically with Howard about the gun
that Jack was carrying around in the trunk of his car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this was the gun our conversation was about. He said
that gun had belonged, it was his gun, that he had loaned it to Mr.
Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what kind of a .38 caliber revolver this
was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a Colt. Other than that I couldn’t say.
It was a snubnosed revolver, Colt snubnosed is all I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything distinguishing about the handle?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t describe anything distinguishable about the
handle, but I believe I could recognize the revolver if I was to see
it. Excuse me, that handle was an, I believe an imitation bone handle
on that pistol. I believe it was kind of a grayish-white imitation bone
handle with dark brown spots on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified that you believe Little Lynn called sometime
on Friday evening, November 22?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would be your recollection that telephone call
was received, was it before or after you had dinner at 8 o’clock over
at the drug store?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was before I had dinner. I believe I said
something to Jack about it when he came back and he said if she called
again to give, tell her to call Miss Grant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she call back?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. And I told her to call Miss Grant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 151 of Exhibit 5226 you are reported as saying in
connection with the photograph of the Earl Warren sign and the post
office box and I am quoting from the FBI report, “Crafard said he was
completely puzzled as Earl Warren was unknown to him.”
I believe you testified earlier here in Washington that you recall Ruby
making some connection between an advertisement that he had seen in the
newspaper and the Earl Warren sign.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remember that connection at the time you talked
with the FBI?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to them about the numbers on
the address having something to do with something else that Ruby had
talked about. I don’t believe I would have anything to do with this
advertisement. I don’t believe anything on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that—are you clear that Ruby, now, that
Ruby did make some connection between the advertisement and the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; very clear. It was in connection with the addresses
on the sign and this post office box number on this ad that he had saw
in the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you making this statement as a result of something
that you personally recall or is this something that is now in your
mind because of conversations you may have had with other people?
Mr. CRAFARD. This is something that I personally, clearly recall him
making the statement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it—Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to
ask along that line?
On page 153 of Exhibit 5226 the FBI reports and I quote, “He knows of
no police contacts on Ruby’s behalf but said Ruby did keep a police
card in the cash register at the Carousel with a name unknown to him on
it.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe this police card?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a white card with the emblem of a badge on it
with some numbers on top of it, numbers on the badge. I can’t recall
what they were, if they were even clear. I believe it to have been in
connection with some sort of a police club or something of that sort,
either that or it was a detective’s card that he might have one of the
business cards, something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was a card about the size of a business card?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And could you tell what police department this person was
from?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Tex., Police Department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been the Dallas County Sheriff’s office?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir. It was from the Dallas, one
of the Dallas police departments.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did it have the name that was written on this card
or printed on the card, did it have a rank in connection with it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been a card from a justice of the peace?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t believe so. I never saw a justice of a peace
card with an emblem of a shield on it. They usually have the emblem of
the Justice Department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned Bill Willis as being a close friend of Jack.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Bill Willis the leader of the band that played at the
Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive but I believe he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Bill Willis, Ruby’s closest friend, in the band?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What led you to that conclusion?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the fact that they would talk together quite often,
if something come up in connection with the band it was always Bill
he talked to. Bill seemed to talk to Ruby more than any of the other
member of the band, and Ruby when he talked to anybody in the band it
would be to Bill Willis more than anyone else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to depart from this exhibit for a bit. You
worked for the Tear Plating Company?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not clear whether that was in Texas or Oregon.
Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Ablon Poultry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a detective by the name of Joe Cody?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that Jack had me call him on one occasion where
he wanted to talk to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that you worked at the Dallas State Fair for
Bob Craven and Deke Miles.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about those men that would have led you
to believe that they were homosexuals?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were working for Jack did you know that he was
getting any skin or scalp treatments of any sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know anything about any trichology treatments he
was getting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack express, ever express any concern about his
baldness?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn’t a subject that he joked about or that other
people kidded him about?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall while you were working for Jack, Jack’s
making any inquiry concerning a business partner?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He was trying to get somebody to go in with him to
open another club in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear him say about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He called two or three different people and talked to them
trying to get them to go in with him on this club. He made something,
a statement to the effect that he had a building already, that it
wouldn’t take much to get it into shape, something about they could
make the best club in Dallas, make it into the best club in Dallas, I
believe specialized clientele, you might say a closed club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this going to be a striptease club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any of the people that Jack talked with
about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack trying to interest these people in doing?
Mr. CRAFARD. Backing him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He was looking for money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about any friends that Jack had at a
bar called Ed’s Bar?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with Ed’s Bar?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Dallas Cabana, do you know anything about
any friends or acquaintances down there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he knew the gentleman who runs the Cabana Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that man ever at the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. He may have been but I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea how often Jack visited the Cabana?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea how often he visited the Baker Hotel
or the Adolphus Hotel?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet or hear Jack talk about or hear anybody
else talk about a girl named Connie Tramel or Trammell?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified before that you don’t recall Jack
saying anything about, saying anything after the President was killed
about the dogs he was going to send to California?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Jack visited the Ritz Delicatessen?
Mr. CRAFARD. The what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of the Ritz, R-i-t-z, Delicatessen?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he ate meals there occasionally, although I am
not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack discuss any travels he had taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss having been to Cuba?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss anything about taking a
Caribbean cruise?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Plans for taking a Caribbean cruise?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss Barney Ross?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Barney Ross’ name familiar to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked as “Exhibit 5227”
and I would like you to look at that and tell me if you recognize that.
(Letter marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5227 for identification.)
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it is a letter I wrote.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to tell without having read that letter when
it was you wrote it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not the exact date. It was while I was working for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall how long it was before you left Dallas
before you wrote that letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe about a week before I left Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall why you didn’t mail that letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read that letter through and tell us if that is
the actual letter that you wrote?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this is the letter I wrote.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you like that letter back?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I would.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you mind if we made a photocopy?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t mind it if you want it but that—but just give
me a moment. I believe the reason I didn’t mail this letter because I
had remembered—because I had rewrote the letter just about exactly as
it is here, but in a neater hand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you actually did mail that letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you left Dallas did you mail that letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been about a week. About the same time I
wrote it. I am not sure of it, I am not definite of that. But I believe
that is the reason, I have done so on several occasions, wrote a letter
and then rewrote it so it would be neater.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize the letter is a personal letter. However, I
think it reflects some things about your state of mind while you were
in Dallas and your relationship to Jack Ruby that we would like to have
for the record and maybe we can handle this by my giving you a copy of
that letter.
Mr. CRAFARD. Have you got a copy?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t have a photocopy of it but I have—it has
been written up in an FBI report and simply ask you if that is an
accurate—the FBI report is an accurate rendition of the letter and then
we can refer to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crafard, I understand you have asked us to return to
you the original of the letter written by you to “Dear Gale” covering
the front and back of a page, which has a letterhead on it “Jack Ruby
Associates, Dallas, Texas” and which has been identified in this
deposition as Exhibit 5227. Normally when a witness produces a document
before the Commission we make a photostatic copy, keep the copy and
then give the witness his document back. However, this document did not
come into our possession in that way, you see.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. We got this document from the FBI. Therefore, we do not
have authority to give it back to you. I will be glad to have a copy
made for you if you would like to do that.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is all right.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you like a copy?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; there is no need to go to that trouble. It is just I
had no idea I had left that particular letter. I know I didn’t do it on
purpose. It was accidental, but I left it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, I want to hand you what has been marked for
identification as “Exhibits 5228-A” and “5228-B”. Now, do you recognize
those as photographs of anything?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; these are photographs of my DD-214, my Army
discharge, the front and back sides.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those, that DD-214, is the paper that you turned over
to us on Wednesday?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those true and accurate copies of the DD-214 that you
gave to us?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I am going to return to you your copy of the
DD-214, and thank you for producing that. I am also going to hand you
two photographs which I will mark in the following manner—hand you
one photograph—I am going to hand you two photographs which I may
have marked “Washington D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits
5229-A and B,” and I will ask you to look at those and tell us if you
recognize those as photographs of anything which you have seen before.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; they are exhibits of the front side and reverse side
of the subpena that I was handed for the Jack Ruby murder trial in
Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You brought this subpena to us and turned it
over to us on Wednesday, is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to return you, then, the subpena which you
gave us on Wednesday, and thank you for bringing that in. Did you also
produce on Wednesday a diary?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you a series of 10 photographs which
are marked, “Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits
5230,” and they are numbered on the face of the photograph in a
sequence starting with “A” which contains a picture of the front cover
of a notebook which says, “USS” with a circle around the USS, and then
in quotation marks “oil well” and then down on the bottom right-hand
corner of this front cover which is photographed the number 1964. That
photograph has the letter “A” on the front of it. After that, there
are a series of photographs numbered in sequence 1 through 10 making a
total of 11 photographs altogether. Now, I would like you to look at
these photographs and tell us if that is a, if those photographs are
photographs of anything that you have ever seen before.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; these are photographs of a pocket diary that is put
out by United States Steel for the oil well corporation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who maintained that diary?
Mr. CRAFARD. I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that, are those photographs of the diary which you
turned over to us on Wednesday?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you go through those photographs and tell us if
everything that you have written in that diary up to date has been
photographed in those pictures?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; everything I have wrote in that book is here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do the Nos. 1 through 10 follow in sequence with the
pages, the sequence of the pages that contain writing in your notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to direct your attention to photograph No. 1.
There is a notation at the top of that photograph. Would you read that
notation?
Mr. CRAFARD. “No. 844,” the letters HEB 12, 13 and underneath, 844 is
the Nos. 12 with a dash 23.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you put that notation in the notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you put that on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just shortly after I got the notebook in Michigan.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that notation, what does that refer to?
Mr. CRAFARD. It refers to the Bible. It is referring to the Book of
Hebrews, page 844 the 12th Chapter, and 23d verse.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you write that in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. There is something in the Bible that refers to the church
to which I belong.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What church is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. General Assembly Church of the First Born. That is the
only place in the Bible where the name can be found.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask
about the notebook?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to return the notebook to you at this time,
and I want to thank you for bringing those documents to us. I want
to ask you one final question. Is there anything which has come to
your attention in connection with the murder of Lee Oswald or the
assassination of President Kennedy that you haven’t told us about that
you think would be of value to the Commission?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t think of anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you after we conclude this deposition if
anything does come to your attention which might be of value to the
Commission if you would contact us and bring it to our attention.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I will do so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes. There have been several conversations between us which
might be called interviews in the sense we were talking about the
matter at hand during lunch and so forth, is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that anything we conversed about at lunch
or any interviews, has not been subsequently made a part of this
deposition?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever talked to any other member of the Commission
staff than Mr. Griffin and myself?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you feel that considering your testimony and various
exhibits that you have identified that we have all you know about the
matter that the Commission is investigating?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is, the death of President Kennedy, and the
subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and Ruby’s connection
therewith.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you for coming here and spending these 3
days with us, and I believe that concludes the deposition.