The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:50 a.m., on
April 10, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by
Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of
the President’s Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, and Max
Phillips, Secret Service, were present.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state first for the record that this is a
continuation of the deposition that was begun on Wednesday morning,
April 8, with Mr. Crafard, and that the oath and all the formalities
that we went through on that date are still in effect. Yesterday
afternoon as Mr. Crafard and I were returning from lunch, he indicated
to me that he had received some telephone calls at the Carousel Club in
the week before President Kennedy was killed, from a man who would call
two or three, perhaps more times a day but would not leave his name but
simply ask for Jack Ruby, and in connection with that conversation Mr.
Crafard asked me if we had any recordings of Lee Oswald’s voice. Mr.
Crafard indicated that he would like to listen to the recordings with
the possibility that he might recognize the voice of somebody he had
talked to or overheard when he was in Ruby’s employ. We have located a
tape recording of an interview which was conducted with Mr. Oswald in
New Orleans shortly after he was arrested for disturbing the peace in
connection with the Fair Play for Cuba activities. The tape recording
was made by radio station WDSU, New Orleans on August 21, 1963. The
recording involves Lee Harvey Oswald, Carlos Bringuier, Ed Butler, and
Bill Stuckey. The recording is provided to us by the United States
Secret Service. It bears Secret Service No. 236.
I would also like to explain for Mr. Crafard’s benefit as well as
the rest of us that it will be very clear as you listen to this tape
recording which person on the recording is Lee Oswald. In some cases
his name may be used. In other cases the question and answer repartee
is such that it will be difficult not to realize who Oswald is if you
know anything about Oswald’s background. There also may be a certain
amount of distortion in the recording and we are not able to state for
the record at this time exactly how much distortion there is and how
this would compare favorably with what might heard over a telephone. I
would like you to keep all of this in mind in listening to this and try
to give us as accurate a recollection as you can of whether you have
ever heard this voice which will appear to be Oswald’s.
Mr. Hubert, do you have anything you want to add?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it is just another way of putting what Mr. Griffin
has said, we don’t want you to identify a voice simply because it is
suggested to you by the content of the material. If that would be the
basis of your recollection—of your recognition it would be of no value
to us, you see. On the other hand, if you do recognize the voice we
expect you to tell us.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dr. Goldberg, do you have anything you would like to ask?
Dr. GOLDBERG. No; I have no questions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Phillips, if you would go ahead and commence the
recording we will all listen to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phillips, you are going to be able to tell us after we
finish playing that at what point you began and at what point you ended?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Might I ask the reporter if it is possible for him to take
down the first couple of sentences so we will have for the record——
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think it will be necessary if we can get into the
record its being at such a point in feet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you indicate to use what the footage is?
Mr. PHILLIPS. I have the index at zero right now with the paper index
in the reel. When it is through I will be able to know how much, what
the index reads and I will have a paper index in the other roll and
that space in between is what we have played. I will identify that
section.
Mr. GRIFFIN. May I suggest, though, Mr. Hubert that if there is
any possibility that portions of this tape might be deleted or
retranscribed onto another tape that it would probably be best if we
did have an indication of the opening words that are on here so that it
can be located?
Mr. HUBERT. That is an extra precaution.
(The tape recording commenced with the following):
“What price in dollars of Cuba selling sugar to Russia, Russia sending
to Cuba 80 percent in machinery in Russia and 20 percent in dollars,”
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera——
(This is a Cuban or Spanish speaking voice.)
“Could you straighten out that point, are you or have you been a
Communist?”
“Yes; I am a Marxist.
“What is the difference.
“Well, the difference is primarily the difference between a country
like Ghana, Guiana, Yugoslavia, China, or Russia.”
(End of transcription.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us now, Mr. Crafard, whether after listening
to this recording you recognize any of the voices on the recording?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phillips, I want the record to show where you began
and where you left off and we have the double check with the opening
sentences of the excerpt and the closing sentences so that we may have
a mechanical check as well, would you state for the record precisely
how this can be identified at a later point in time.
Mr. PHILLIPS. This section of the tape can be identified by paper index
tabs which have been inserted. Secondly, the index numerical index
reads 163 on this stereophonic concord tape recorder. The numerical
index reads 163 which means from the time the tape was played which was
on zero index, the tape distance went 163 inches.
Mr. HUBERT. Those paper tabs are temporary, aren’t they?
Mr. PHILLIPS. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there a possibility of marking the tape in some way
without injuring it?
Mr. PHILLIPS. There would be.
Mr. HUBERT. So that there would be a permanent mark as to where the
paper tabs were?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you do that by making some sort of significant mark
with your initials?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. We will ask you to do that also.
Mr. PHILLIPS. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Larry, did you recognize anyone of the voices in that
excerpt that we played?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard them at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you are certain that it is not the voice of the man who
called Ruby that you referred to yesterday?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that now?
Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday I understand that you referred to the fact that
a man had called Ruby by telephone on a sufficient number of occasions
so that you believe that you could recognize his voice if you heard it
again.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will ask you if any of the voices that you heard in
this excerpt just run off on the machine is the voice of the man you
were talking about?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, having had a chance to listen to a number of voices
on the tape recording is there anything you can tell us about the voice
of the man who called you without leaving his name that Mr. Hubert has
been referring to. Did he have an accent?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he didn’t have an accent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he speak with any characteristic Texan or southern
speech patterns?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; his voice sounded more like a person from the East
would talk. His words were very pronounced and very definite.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is one photograph that I neglected to show you
yesterday which I want to show you now and ask you to identify.
I am going to mark this Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L.
Crafard, Exhibit 5222.
(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5222 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at that photograph and tell me if that is a
photograph of anyone you have ever seen before?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I have saw the gentleman before at the club but
I don’t believe I was ever introduced to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in what connection you saw him in the
Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was a guest of Mr. Ruby’s.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when you may have seen him there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Exhibit 5223
which is a photograph of a piece of paper and it bears the name T. E.
Smith, and there is some other writing under it. Do you recognize that
name on that sheet of paper?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This exhibit is marked Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964,
C. L. Crafard Exhibit 5223 and it bears on the back the numeral one.
(Photographs marked Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5223 and 5224-A for
identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Washington,
D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard Exhibit No. 5224-A and I will ask
you if you will tell us what those are a picture of.
Mr. CRAFARD. They are pictures of a message, I would say that—there is
space for who the message is to, the date, who it is by, and when they
were there and the phone numbers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there three message slips photographed in that picture?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you ever recall seeing those around, such message
slips around, the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall seeing those in any connection with Mr.
Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on there. Do you recognize any of the names on
those sheets of paper?
Mr. CRAFARD. None other than the name Ruby here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether Mr. Ruby received telephone calls
regularly at any phone other than the phone at the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. He might at his home address. I wouldn’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at what I have marked in the same fashion
as Exhibit 5224-B and tell me if you recognize any of the names that
are shown in that photograph?
(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5224-B for identification.)
Mr. CRAFARD. The middle one in the picture bears the name Pauline which
is the name of the assistant manager of the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether there was somebody who stayed
throughout the day at the Vegas Club in the same manner that you stayed
throughout the day at the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe there was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you a series of photographs all of
which are marked Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964 and which I am going
to mark Exhibit 5225. Each of these 19 photographs has in the upper
right-hand corner on the reverse side of the photograph a letter in
sequence from A to S. I would like you to look at all 19 of these
photographs and tell me if you recognize the notebook which they
purport to depict.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe these to be a notebook that Jack Ruby used.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would you recall seeing that notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he carried it on his person.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yesterday you identified two other notebooks one which you
thought he kept on his person, the other which you thought he kept in
his desk.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Having seen this is there—would you change your testimony
any way about the other two notebooks that you identified yesterday?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is your testimony that Jack maintained at least
three small-sized notebooks that you recall?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had several of them, two or three of which he carried
on him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to state for the record that these photographs do
not have the normal commission number that is put on documents when
they come into the office. These photographs at this time have come to
us by a letter from the Federal Bureau of Investigation dated April 7,
and the letter indicates that this notebook was found in Jack Ruby’s
automobile.
I will identify this notebook further as having on the front cover the
word “Alladin”. The notebook appears to be a pocket-size notebook which
might be 2 by 3 inches or 1½ by 3 inches.
Under the word “Alladin” there is a triangle with some writing which I
am unable to read. Under the triangle, on the cover is written notebook
No. 3164.
Mr. HUBERT. You had better identify that picture you hold in your hand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The picture I am referring to here is Exhibit 5225-A.
The one refers to the number that the Bureau has put on in the upper
right-hand corner on the reverse side. I am going to ask you to look at
these photographs in sequence if you will look at Exhibit 5225-B, will
you tell me whether you recognize any of the names written on there?
(Photographs marked Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5225-A through 5225-S for
identification.)
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Pauline is on this page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Milt Jaffe?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the name Bonnie also appears on this, that would
be the last name on this page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. State what you understand—you are looking through a
magnifying glass now at photograph number one, in the series of
Exhibits 5225 and there is a name on there that you believe to be
Bonnie?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that as I look at it it
appears to be Barney, but assuming that it is Bonnie, that is—is that
name familiar with you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Bonnie, a girl was—a girl by the name of Bonnie worked as
a waitress at the Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about any of the other names on that page?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Pauline mentioned before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Correction for the record, we are looking at photograph B
in the 5225 series.
Would you look at photograph C in that series and tell me if you
recognize any of the names on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. This photograph doesn’t contain any names. It has
something to do with taxes, admission tax.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what Jack Ruby’s practice was while you
worked with him as to keeping track of taxes and so forth?
Mr. CRAFARD. On this admission tax we had some numbered tickets. When
each customer came in we tore one in half, tore half of the tickets and
gave them half of the ticket and once a month they would go at it and
count the tickets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where he kept his records for those things?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know where he kept his records at.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his making entries in a small notebook for
such records?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not on the admission tickets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have some sort of other book that he kept his tax
records in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe his accountant kept most of the tax records but
there was something about the admission tax where him, Ruby and Andy
would work on that together and count the stubs.
But I don’t know where he kept record of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the admission charge to the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two dollars.