Mr. GRIFFIN. You walked for an hour and a half?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you had two bags with you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t attempt to take any streetcars or buses?
Mr. CRAFARD. No city buses running when I got there.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you judge that it was too late for the buses?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I think it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it after midnight?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think so; I’m not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a man, too, you think?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you have supper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think we must have stopped; I think we stopped before we
got to Lansing at a cafe to get supper.
Mr. HUBERT. How far out of Lansing? If you don’t remember the miles,
you might tell us about how long before he dropped you off.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know that, either.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been 3 or 4 hours. Probably about halfway
between Chicago and Lansing.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you were with him about 8 hours, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think so; I’m not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. And he picked you up about dark?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; that is about a 400- or 500-mile ride.
Mr. HUBERT. He picked you up about dark in Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just about toward dark.
Mr. HUBERT. Five in the afternoon?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been 5 or 5:30.
Mr. HUBERT. So it was something like midnight or shortly after when you
got to Lansing?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say about halfway between; that is when you had
lunch or supper?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Or about 8 o’clock, do you think; 9 o’clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been about 8--8 or 8:30--something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that Oswald had been shot?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had heard that Oswald had been shot Sunday evening.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been while I was getting through Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you hear that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Over the radio.
Mr. HUBERT. What radio?
Mr. CRAFARD. The car radio.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that Ruby had done it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t find out who had done it until the following
Monday, the following morning, Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you find that out?
Mr. CRAFARD. I heard that over the radio.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, Larry, I suppose all of those cars you
were in had radios, didn’t they?
Mr. CRAFARD. A lot of people don’t listen to the radio when they are
riding like that. That was the first I’d heard of it--was Sunday
evening, the first I heard Oswald had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. Sunday afternoon, wasn’t it?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. You said it was while you were working your way through
Chicago.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which took you two or three different cars; about 2 hours
or so?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It was in one of those that you heard it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no announcement that Ruby had done it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so, because I didn’t know Ruby had done it
until Monday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you find that out?
Mr. CRAFARD. I heard that over the news.
Mr. HUBERT. In a car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. During the night when you were driving from Chicago to
Lansing, during the period from 5 in the afternoon to about midnight,
didn’t you hear any radio announcements about any of this matter?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that car have a radio in it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t it playing?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss the shooting?
Mr. CRAFARD. After I found out that Oswald had been shot we discussed
it a little bit. We couldn’t understand. Both of us, as far as I can
recall--the gentleman I was riding with and myself--we both said we
would like to have seen him come to trial.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to the man that you were from Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it customary for hitchhikers to discuss what is a
subject common to them, and that is where you have been and where you
are going?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of the time; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t you, in fact, do that with this man; tell him you
were from Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall whether I did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. There is a difference between telling us that you don’t
know and that you did not.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I say. I don’t recall whether I did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. So, really, it is not that you are saying to us that you
didn’t, but just that you don’t remember?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, I don’t recall whether I had been doing so.
I more than likely did, because it is usually something that they say;
it is a subject that most people would discuss--where their destination
is and where they have come from.
Mr. HUBERT. And I would think that if you did, if there was a
possibility that you did, and you mentioned that you were from Dallas,
that that would be another topic of conversation that might be
interesting between two people riding along that way.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, that you had been in the city at which the
President was killed.
Mr. CRAFARD. We would have discussed that.
Mr. HUBERT. Doesn’t that refresh your memory on the subject?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn’t, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You still don’t remember?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Talking to that man about the fact that you were in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember having any indication that it was known who
had shot Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to anyone about the fact that it was a
nightclub owner?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the radio remain on after you heard this announcement?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember whether the radio stayed on, or whether
he turned it off, or what.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, what you are telling us--it is your best
memory now that you heard it over the radio that Oswald had been shot.
That is as much as you did hear?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not hear who had done it or even the type of person
who had done it, or what business the person was in who had done it,
and that you never discussed it with anybody that you rode with in any
one of those rides in Chicago and with the ride to Lansing?
Mr. CRAFARD. So far as I recall, I don’t recall--I imagine it was
discussed, but I don’t recall discussing it. I don’t remember it.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way: If you had discussed with anybody
the killing of Oswald, the man accused of killing Oswald, you would
remember that now, wouldn’t you, Larry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I would, if I discussed anything about who had been
accused of it, but, like I say, the first knowledge I had of who had
shot Oswald was Monday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. We will get to that in a moment Now, you had to go through
Lansing, and you say it took but an hour and a half?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your next hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can remember, I had a series of short rides,
20 or 25 miles to a ride.
Mr. HUBERT. How far along did these series of short rides take you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I probably traveled about 60 or 70 miles before I
got a good ride.
Mr. HUBERT. That point, 60 or 75 miles beyond Lansing being the same
point at which you got a good ride, was what place?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a large city, a small town?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a small place as far as I can remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that the last hitch you had?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I got one more after that. I think that one
carried me to Mount Pleasant.
Mr. HUBERT. To Mount Pleasant?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How far is Mount Pleasant from Lansing?
Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps we can get it by approaching the times. Apparently
you left Lansing about an hour and a half after you got there, after
you got there about midnight or so, and correct me if I am wrong. We
could assume that you left Lansing with a series of short rides which
took you 60 miles, approximately 1:30 to 2 o’clock on the morning of
the 25th, is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, it must have been about that.
Mr. HUBERT. And would you care to estimate for us as to how long it
took you with the series of short rides to cover the 60 miles to which
you have referred?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be an hour and a half, 2 hours, 2 hours and a
half.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps it would help if you look at it in this way. Do you
remember whether the next long ride that took you into Mount Pleasant
you got before or after daylight?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was before daylight.
Mr. HUBERT. It was still dark?
Mr. CRAFARD. I walked about--where this guy let me off at it was about
5 miles from where there was any light and I walked up where there was
light to get a ride.
Mr. HUBERT. I didn’t quite understand that.
The man who picked you up 60 miles on the other side of Lansing let you
off before light?
Mr. CRAFARD. I walked about 5 miles before I got a ride with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it light when you got a ride with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. I have lost some time somewhere
between leaving Dallas and getting there because I didn’t get into
Clare until 9:30 at night. It was 9:30 at night when I got into Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. At the present time, you are telling us that you picked up
this last long ride took you into Mount Pleasant. Let’s find out what
time you got into Mount Pleasant, because, you see, you told us you
don’t know what place it was where you picked up that ride, except that
it was somewhat about 60 miles on the other side of Lansing.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I didn’t get into Clare until, I think it was 9
or 9:30 at night. I’ve lost at least 8 hours of time.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course I don’t know that you have because I don’t know
what geography or distance we are talking about.
Mr. CRAFARD. The distance isn’t that great. It only is 15 miles from
Mount Pleasant to Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s start this way. What time did you get to Mount
Pleasant?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was about 8:30 at night when I got to Mount
Pleasant because it was 9:30, I’m almost positive it was 9 or 9:30 when
I got into Clare, because I went over to my cousin’s house in Clare. I
remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. It was before dark and before dawn when you picked up the
driver somewhere approximately 6 miles on the other side of Lansing who
took you into Mount Pleasant. Now, how long did you ride with him, and
how far is it between the two?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I mean. I have lost some time earlier
somewhere, because it is not that long a ride. I could have made it
from Lansing to Clare and back again during the day.
Mr. HUBERT. Larry, we want to get it straight.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I am trying to do, myself.
Mr. HUBERT. If you want to figure out any place where you have made any
mistake about the time----
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I was trying to do.
Mr. HUBERT. We can start all over again. It seemed to fit as I went
along, but I wasn’t aware of the distances.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask him this question: I understand you said that
you walked through Lansing.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did it take you to walk through Lansing?
Mr. CRAFARD. About an hour, hour and a half, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And at that time the cars were not running, the transit,
the public transportation was not running, or were you out of money at
that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I still had money I have to eat on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Lansing is how far from Clare?
Mr. CRAFARD. Lansing isn’t over, I don’t believe it is over 225 miles
from Clare to Lansing.
Mr. HUBERT. It may be that you are making a mistake, Larry. Let’s see
if we can’t refresh your memory from the time you got that last long
hitch that took you to Mount Pleasant because you remember getting to
Mount Pleasant at night, about 8:30.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that, you say, is a run of what--about 5 hours, 6 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe it would take that long.
Mr. HUBERT. So if you got there at about 8:30 at night, then either you
didn’t get any hitches for a long period of time, or else something
else happened.