Mr. CRAFARD. He was shook up, mad.
Mr. HUBERT. He was mad at you?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I believe I was using the term “shook up” to
mean.
Mr. HUBERT. He was mad at you and he chewed you out.
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention anything about the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it simply that here was a man who had been asleep and
who had been wakened and he was mad because somebody had wakened him up?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been. That is what I took it as.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what you took it as?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He used the tone of voice with you that he had used once
before which you didn’t like, and you told him about?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said something else. I don’t remember what it was he
said.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it like?
Mr. CRAFARD. How’s that?
Mr. HUBERT. What was it like in addition to this? Was it something
particularly more aggravating to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would think it was pertaining to the President or
something there. I don’t remember what it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, pass it. Perhaps we will come back to it in a little
while. How long did that conversation last, about?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe 5 minutes at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about the dogs?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said he would bring some dog food down.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you when?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he said, “When you come.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you when to come?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. This you say was about 8:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 8:30.
Mr. HUBERT. It lasted 5 minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had Andy come yet?
Mr. CRAFARD. How’s that?
Mr. HUBERT. Had Andy come yet?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; Andy wasn’t coming in. The club was closed.
Mr. HUBERT. The club still hadn’t been cleaned up?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I went over and had breakfast.
Mr. HUBERT. Right away?
Mr. CRAFARD. Shortly after that. Within 10 or 15 minutes, it was.
Mr. HUBERT. You were still dressed, I take it, because you had never
undressed?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. You hadn’t been to sleep at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You hadn’t been to sleep at all that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not very much, dozed off a couple of times or so, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean what with reading the book after you went to bed and
the telephone conversation, or both of them, with the girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And then the visit outside with Jack and then going back
and reading some more, and then the call at 8:30, as I understand you,
correct me if I am wrong, you didn’t really sleep at all that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; that’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go to breakfast?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went over to the Walgreen drugstore.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get back?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was gone about a half hour, approximately--probably 9:15
or 9:30.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I sat around the club there for quite a while. Then I
decided to leave, so I took off.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you reach your decision to leave?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know. It must have been about 11 or 11:15,
something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had $5, and that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you owed any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Like I say, there was no--he had come to an agreement to
give me some money, but I didn’t know how much he had figured on giving
me, or anything. I think I took $5 out of the till, if I remember
correct, and left a draw slip in the till.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any money other than the $5?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I had $2 in my pocket.
Mr. HUBERT. So you had $7, all together?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you going?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you determined at that time that you were going to
Michigan?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had wrote to my sister quite a while before that,
and I had got no answer, and I had been worrying, wondering what the
devil was wrong there because she never failed to answer me right away.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that the reason that you decided to go, to find out?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was the only reason that I know of I was going.
Mr. HUBERT. What I want to get at is what was your motivation for
leaving.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I had been wanting to go up to Michigan to see my
sister and find out what was wrong.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was the reason you went?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, this little rhubarb you had with Jack wasn’t
the real cause of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That had nothing to do with your decision?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave any note to say what you were doing?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I left the key down with the boy at the garage, and
told him to give it to Jack when Jack come in.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave any verbal message that you were leaving?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I told him to tell Jack I said goodby.
Mr. HUBERT. Don’t you think you owed him more than that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I never stopped to give it a thought.
Mr. HUBERT. Why didn’t you call him and tell him that you wanted to go
and see your sister?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know. I haven’t got any idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Why didn’t you wait until he came in and tell him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I made up my mind to go, and that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you propose to travel that distance with $7?
Mr. CRAFARD. Hitchhike.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you done that before in your life?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. You told absolutely nobody but the garageman that you were
leaving; is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right. He is the only one I spoke to. I gave him
the key and told him to tell Jack I said goodby.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not tell him where you were going?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you in fact go? What route did you take?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went out and took, I think it is 77, I believe it
is--right outside of Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you walk there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I walked out about 15 or 18 blocks, I think it is, and a
guy I had met out at the fair picked me up. He saw me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you arrange for him to pick you up?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he was going by, he saw me, and he recognized me.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?
Mr. CRAFARD. How’s that?
Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember what his name is. He worked out there for
a while. I never did know his name. I don’t think he knew my name. He
recognized me as having worked out there.
Mr. HUBERT. You were on the highway hitchhiking at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a bag?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How large was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a regular satchel and I had another bag.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a car was he driving?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he had a 1934 or 1935 Chevy, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. He was alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had his son with him.
Mr. HUBERT. How old is his son?
Mr. CRAFARD. Nine or ten years old, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. How far did you go with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. He took me about 20 or 25 or 30 miles out. It wasn’t in
Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him where you were heading?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I told him I was going up to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss the route to go to Michigan?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I knew the route I wanted.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you looked it up?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had been across that route previously and knew.
Mr. HUBERT. Hitchhiking?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before?
Mr. CRAFARD. My wife and I left Dallas in 1963. We went up 77 to 66.
Mr. HUBERT. But you weren’t hitchhiking then, were you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; we hitchhiked. She wouldn’t take the bus. I had money
for her to take the bus with her and the kids, and she refused to do so.
Mr. HUBERT. You told us earlier you had gone by bus.
Mr. CRAFARD. We went part way by bus.
Mr. HUBERT. Which part did you go by bus?
Mr. CRAFARD. We went I think from Sacramento, took the bus out.
Mr. HUBERT. You hitchhiked to Sacramento?
Mr. CRAFARD. We hitchhiked to Bakersfield, and picked up a motorcycle I
had there and went on the motorcycle. I worked in California there for
about 3 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you go by bus?
Mr. CRAFARD. From Sacramento we took the bus on up to Washington.
Mr. HUBERT. But you hitchhiked the previous time?
Mr. CRAFARD. To Bakersfield.
Mr. HUBERT. With your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was at her request? She wanted to hitchhike?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Rather than go by bus?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she give any reason for that?
Mr. CRAFARD. She didn’t want to leave me.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t want to what?
Mr. CRAFARD. She didn’t want to leave, let me go by myself or something.
Mr. HUBERT. But you said you offered to take her by bus.
Mr. CRAFARD. I offered to send her by bus and I’d hitchhike. That is
what I figured on doing. I had the money to send her and the two boys,
but I didn’t have money enough to take the bus myself.
Mr. HUBERT. So the three of you hitchhiked--the four of you hitchhiked?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. There were two young babies and you and your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any difficulty with that?
Mr. CRAFARD. None whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you have hitchhiked a lot, Larry--isn’t it true that it
is much harder for a group of people to hitchhike than an individual?
Mr. CRAFARD. It depends on the group. You take a group like that and it
is much easier for a family group like that to get a hitchhike than it
is for a single person.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, people seem to stop a lot faster for a family group
like that than they would for a single person.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had never hitchhiked north, had you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I figured to myself that we would take a route across from
Dallas to Amarillo, that that was a pretty hard route to hitchhike
under any circumstances, and figured that would be a lot easier, to go
up 77 to hit 66, than it would be to go through to Amarillo.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you consult a map at all in planning this trip?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. We picked it up at the gas station.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean after you started out?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I picked up a map right there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas, Tex., about a block from where my wife and I
had been living.
Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about consulting a map with reference to going
to see your sister when you left Ruby’s place.
Mr. CRAFARD. I knew that 77 would carry me right into 66, and 66 would
carry me almost in to Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have to consult a map then?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that what you are telling us?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. This boy picked you up then and carried you
about 30 miles, you say?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. To what place?
Mr. CRAFARD. Out the other side of Carrollton a little ways.
Mr. HUBERT. What State?
Mr. CRAFARD. Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he live there?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a place there on the lake he was working on, he was
going out there.
Mr. HUBERT. What lake was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the name of the lake.
Mr. HUBERT. But it was at Carrollton?
Mr. CRAFARD. Out the other side of Carrollton.
Mr. HUBERT. How far beyond Carrollton?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know. He went out and turned off on a country road.
Mr. HUBERT. But he left you on the highway?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a country road that went east or west of the highway
you were on?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he went to the west, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you how far he had to go up the road?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He was going to work, is that it?
Mr. CRAFARD. How’s that?
Mr. HUBERT. He was going to work?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was going to go up and do some work on his cabin.
Mr. HUBERT. On his cabin on the lake?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did this man know Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Could he have met Ruby as you did out at the fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. He could have, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know that he did?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him about what you had been doing in the
interim since you had last seen him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I told him that I had been working in Dallas at the
Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention that you had been working for Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. I probably told him that Ruby ran the Carousel Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he show any signs of recognizing he had seen Ruby out
at the State Fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or that he knew him in any other way?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So far as you know then, the man didn’t know Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. He gave no manifestations of knowing him at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then. What happened next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I hitchhiked on up to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you wait for your next hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, barely about 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. The same spot or were you walking along?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed right there, walked about a hundred yards, maybe,
up to an entryway where the cars came into the freeway.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you got another ride?
Mr. CRAFARD. Got another ride, right there.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that with?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us something about him, what kind of a car it was, was
it a man, a woman?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, man; I believe it was a ride with a man.
Mr. HUBERT. How far did you go with this second driver?
Mr. CRAFARD. Wait a minute, it was a man and his wife that picked me
up, carried me on up across the line, up to where he hit 66.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a car was it, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they had an old Chevy, or an old Ford.
Mr. HUBERT. What license car?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a Texas car.
Mr. HUBERT. And they carried you across the Texas line?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. They was going up to visit some relatives of his up
there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where? Is there a town at the Texas line that he dropped
you off?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it was on up about 50 or 60 miles across the other
side of the line.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I thought from what you said that he had dropped you
off at the line. In fact he had brought you about 60 miles beyond the
line.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And into what State?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was Oklahoma.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you ride with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was together for about 5 or 6 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. What time of day was it when he dropped you off?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was night when I got off there.
Mr. HUBERT. What time had he picked you up?
Mr. CRAFARD. He picked me up about between 12:30 and a quarter to 1.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the town it was in?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was one of the big towns there, if I can think of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tulsa, Oklahoma City?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oklahoma City, I think it was.
Mr. HUBERT. You rode in the back?
Mr. CRAFARD. I rode in the front seat with them. They were driving the
car.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. CRAFARD. I rode in the front seat with them.
Mr. HUBERT. The three of you in the front?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, they had stuff in the back seat.
Mr. HUBERT. And I understood you to say that they didn’t tell you their
names at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. They give me their name, but I don’t remember it.
Mr. HUBERT. But that they were going to visit some relatives in
Oklahoma City?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. They was visiting his dad.
Mr. HUBERT. His father. And that would have been around 6:30 or 7 at
night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Right around there; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you have lunch?
Mr. CRAFARD. We stopped along the road at a cafe and had lunch.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stop on the road with the couple or with that
friend?
Mr. CRAFARD. With the couple.
Mr. HUBERT. You paid for your own lunch?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. That I think was your first expenditure on the trip?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did that cost you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe $1, a dollar and a half.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you pay for their lunch?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; they paid for their own.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, what did you do then?
Mr. CRAFARD. They let me out. I hitchhiked on up to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they leave you in downtown?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; they took me out to the edge of town to hitch a ride.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it in the direction they were going?
Mr. CRAFARD. They dropped by there, by his dad’s place, and we sat
there and we each had a cup of coffee and he took me out to the edge of
town.
Mr. HUBERT. So you met his dad too?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know what street that was on?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know the name of the people?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody else there besides the father?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was the father and one son that was at home.
Mr. HUBERT. An adult son?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was in school I understand.
Mr. HUBERT. How old a boy was he?
Mr. CRAFARD. He must have been about 16 or 17.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was there maybe a half an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. And had coffee?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. No supper?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Then they took you from there to a spot on the highway on
the other side of Oklahoma City--that is, on the north side--did they?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And dropped you off for your next hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. How long a drive was it to get you there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, maybe about 4 or 5 miles.
Mr. HUBERT. Miles you say?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The man and his wife or just the man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Him and his wife, and I think his brother was with him,
him and his wife and his brother.
Mr. HUBERT. They dropped you off?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Any suggestions made that you might rest overnight there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Right away?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, I stood there maybe a half hour, 45 minutes, I was
standing under a street light.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get supper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I ate about 10 or 11 o’clock that night.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about your third hitch, how long it was, and so
forth.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it carried me through most of the night, through
the rest of the night I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a man, woman?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a man.
Mr. HUBERT. Alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can figure.
Mr. HUBERT. How old?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe in his late thirties.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of an automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he had a Buick.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the color?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the license, what State license?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oklahoma.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you sit in the back or in the front?
Mr. CRAFARD. I sat in the front.
Mr. HUBERT. And he carried you how far?
Mr. CRAFARD. We traveled most of the night. He was traveling back east.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did he drop you off and where?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he dropped me off just the other side of Missouri,
in Missouri, just outside of St. Louis on 66.
Mr. HUBERT. Which side of St. Louis?
Mr. CRAFARD. The south side.
Mr. HUBERT. Which way was he going?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be the west side of 66, of St. Louis, on 66. He
was going into St. Louis.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was he going after that?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, he was going back home.
Mr. HUBERT. East?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was going up on 66. So far as I know he was stopping in
St. Louis.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said he was going east.
Mr. CRAFARD. From where he picked me up it was east, from where he
picked me up.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean, was St. Louis his final destination?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was it as far as he was concerned?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you had supper with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. We stopped at about 10 or 10:30 and had a bite to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think we stopped at a truck stop.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know what place?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had been riding with him did you stop?
Mr. CRAFARD. He picked me up, it must have been about 8 o’clock, or
8:30. We didn’t stop until about 10 or 10:30 for lunch, for a bite to
eat.
Mr. HUBERT. Two and a half hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you could have run a hundred miles or so?
Mr. CRAFARD. Easily.
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t a city which you stopped at?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, it was just a little truck stop on the highway.
Mr. HUBERT. On 66?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you fall asleep there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I did, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. At what time, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. You are not sure then that you did fall asleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. I fell asleep, but I have no idea when it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how long you slept?
Mr. CRAFARD. I slept until about a half hour out of St. Louis, when I
woke up.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to St. Louis?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it daylight?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. How much had you spent for supper?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe a dollar; a dollar and a half.
Mr. HUBERT. You were down to about $4 then?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then I went on up. I got a ride there.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you have to wait until you got that next hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe a half hour.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that one; what time it was, what kind of a
car it was, the people in it.
Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine it was a man alone.
Mr. HUBERT. Don’t imagine if you can help it. If you can’t remember,
but try to recollect.
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. How far did you go on that hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he carried me clear up into Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. How far a run would that be?
Mr. CRAFARD. How’s that?
Mr. HUBERT. How much of a run would that be?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be about a 7- or 8-hour ride, driving time, I
believe.
Mr. HUBERT. It was daylight then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So you were on that hitch about 7 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether it was a man or a woman?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a man.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; most of your rides are with men alone.
Mr. HUBERT. A little while ago you told us that you didn’t know whether
it was a man or a woman or anything; you didn’t remember. Now you tell
us it was a man.
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you really do remember that it was a man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, I daresay you can describe him, can’t
you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t describe him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a young man or an old man?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was in his late twenties.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. It seems to me like it was a red and white Chevy.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you were with that person and in that automobile
about 7 or 8 hours clean into Chicago. So you had a lot of opportunity
to observe such things as who you were riding with.
Mr. CRAFARD. It has been quite a while back, too.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your memory that you now say he was a man in his late
twenties; about 29?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say in his late twenties.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you don’t remember the type of car?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a Chevy.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember the State license plate?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do any stopping with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine we probably stopped a couple of times and gassed
up; stopped and had a bite to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the cost of that meal?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. It couldn’t have been more than about a
dollar or a dollar and a half, at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t pay for his meal or buy the gas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it customary for hitchhikers to help out that way?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not very often. A man usually figures if he picks up a
hitchhiker he figures on feeding him when he picks him up.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. A man who usually picks up somebody who is hitchhiking,
they usually figure on feeding him.
Mr. HUBERT. These people didn’t feed you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I try to have money in my pocket when I am hitchhiking.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was in the afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. What part of the afternoon.
Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been early afternoon or getting toward dark?
This time of the year it gets dark early; it did at that time.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I know.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you had been with him about 7½ hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me get the time straight here a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought we did have it straight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not straight.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me see if I can’t get this straight. You rode through
the night of the 23d?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Until the man left you off on the morning of the 24th on
the west side of St. Louis on Highway 66; is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. It was daylight then, and you had been with that man since
about 8 o’clock the night before. Now, do you remember the time that he
left you off? I think you stated that, didn’t you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not exactly sure what the time was. Probably about 6
or 6:30; something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you rode with this other man from that time or
about a half hour after that time, you said; so that is about 7 o’clock
on the morning of the 24th, you rode with him about 7½ hours to Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So then we can reconstruct that you must have reached
Chicago or nearby Chicago at approximately half past 2 or 3 in the
afternoon.
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been in there somewhere.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had stopped a little while for lunch.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And gas and so forth. What do you think is the fair time to
state, Larry?
Mr. CRAFARD. How’s that?
Mr. HUBERT. What do you think is the fair time to state that the man
let you off in Chicago, given the time schedule that we have been able
to work out to the extent that it helps your memory? You were there.
What we are trying to do is to get the facts.
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been about 2:30, 3 o’clock, because I got
through Chicago all right without any trouble.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t take you through Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I bypassed most of Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you do that?
Mr. CRAFARD. On a couple alternate routes.
Mr. HUBERT. With hitchhikers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Different rides.
Mr. HUBERT. Different rides?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How many?
Mr. CRAFARD. I got three or four different rides in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. With these several rides around Chicago, bypassing it, how
long did it take you to get around Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. Probably 2 or 3 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. And these were all short ones?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall your next long one that really took you out
of Chicago good?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had a ride carried me over to Lansing.
Mr. HUBERT. What distance is that from Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not sure of the exact distance.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did that man pick you up, a woman, or whoever it
was?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a man. It must have been getting on toward night;
it must have been.
Mr. HUBERT. Toward 9, or night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Night. It must have been getting toward dark. It was
getting dark pretty quick at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that man alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had that ride clean on from Chicago to Lansing,
Mich.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to Lansing?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, it was night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You weren’t at your destination yet, were you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay in Lansing very long?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not too long. I had to pretty well walk through quite
a bit of Lansing; about an hour and a half walk, I guess it was.